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T42 shuts down when i move it

T40/T41/T42/T43 Series
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jamiphar
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#241 Post by jamiphar » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:05 am

Just so everyone knows, I recently started offering GPU reflows. This kind of reflow is the best solution for loose GPUs and will permanently solve the problem.

The price is $150 and it comes with a one-year warranty. See this thread for details.

If you have any questions, feel free to e-mail me at james@arndtcomputer.com.
Last edited by jamiphar on Wed May 28, 2008 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#242 Post by mwmason » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:52 pm

Can anyone post a photo of the location of the GPU underneath the long fan.

Thanks.

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#243 Post by nmiller84 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:42 pm

I had the same problem almost once a year on my T40. I literally sent it in for repair every 10 months, finally IBM just refunded my money when it happened the 4th time. Too bad, I loved that laptop.

They chalked it up to what you all have learned, bad GPU connection due to chasis flex. Lets just say, once they refunded my money, I didnt replace it with a T4x...I am suprised they dont offer a warranty extension since this was such a widespread issue. (I consulted for a medium sized company here is chicago and 25% of the T4x's had the same problem).
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will bad BGA on a GPU show up on external monitor? R40

#244 Post by thehumble1 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:05 pm

this seems like the most thorough coverage of the GPU issue in these forums so I'm posting here rather than starting a new thread.

First off, I've got a G3 iBook that luckily avoided this problem. It was a later model which, I guess, was better built. I have looked into this problem thoroughly for that computer though, so I'm pretty aware of the problem and fix, though I haven't had to do it yet.

I recently picked up a used R40 with a "broken lcd" which looks exactly like the bug at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE4bW5O6 ... re=related

But this one doesn't appear on an external monitor. When I start it up on an external, it's perfect. I have scoped these forums for a while and haven't run into this question being answered directly.

IMHO it doesn't make sense that the problem would only exist on the internal monitor if it is a real GPU connection problem, but my screen looks a lot like dudes does and like what is explained on the forums.

So I don't want to buy a new LCD panel if it isn't the problem and I don't want to reflow the GPU if it's an unnecessary risk, so I'm kinda at a loss. I did fix a G4 Powerbook that had a similar issue by replacing the LCD panel and it works perfectly. It also worked fine on an external monitor, so I was content with trying the LCD.

Any thoughts? Thanks.
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#245 Post by induktor » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:26 pm

I watched the video you posted, and this is a LCD flex or LCD interfase problem, not GPU issue.

I do have a GPU problem (random horizontal lines mixed with the normal video) and you can see the same effect in the LCD, VGA output and S-Video to TV output too ;)

I would like to comment also that I did the reflow as explained here, using a good infrarred thermometer, and the motherboard DIED completely, not even turn power on (not mention post hehe) so, it didn't work for me, or I didn't do it right maybe, i don't know, but AFAIK I followed the instructions to the letter.

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Re: will bad BGA on a GPU show up on external monitor? R40

#246 Post by rkawakami » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:51 pm

thehumble1 wrote:this seems like the most thorough coverage of the GPU issue in these forums so I'm posting here rather than starting a new thread.
Welcome to thinkpads.com!
thehumble1 wrote:When I start it up on an external, it's perfect. I have scoped these forums for a while and haven't run into this question being answered directly.
This is from a T23 and T30 standpoint, but I would think that most laptop video chipsets operate in the same way:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=54715
thehumble1 wrote:WSo I don't want to buy a new LCD panel if it isn't the problem and I don't want to reflow the GPU if it's an unnecessary risk, so I'm kinda at a loss.
I'd stick to the non-cost methods of troubleshooting first. If you can open up the system and apply pressure on top of the graphics chip and see of the problem goes away, that would pinpoint it as the cause. You can also try re-seating both ends of the LCD cable, after closely inspecting it all along the way between the motherboard and back of the panel for cracks or tears. Grab a copy of the Hardware Maintenance Manual from here:

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... 45899.html
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maybe the internet isn't truth

#247 Post by thehumble1 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:34 am

Thanks for all the quick and accurate replies. I really liked the idea of using youtube for diagnosis, as it can explain a thousand times better many problems. I don't know why it isn't more standardized.

I've attacked the LCD side of the video cable but didn't get a response from that. I'll take apart the main body and check the other end. I'm really glad to hear that it doesn't look like a GPU problem, and to hear that you agree that a GPU issue would also show up on the other video sources. I'll get to it. Thanks
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GPU problems - IBM denies design fault

#248 Post by kons » Sat May 03, 2008 3:19 pm

Thank you all guys. Used heat gun - actually with less effort than described by many - just put foil around the motherboard exposing only GPU and it's memory(?) - heated the two chips in 30 seconds and kept it at approximately 250 deg C (measured with a thermocouple lying in between the two chips).
I restored three motherboards. One of them was totally dead other two were working for 2-3 minutes before blank outs.
Two out of three are successfully working for a week - and I do let the laptops bend and move.

What gets me - the three motherboards in question had practially sequential serial numbers - it is definitely a design fault. I did give IBM a call - of course they are not going to do anything.

I will never recommend IBM to anyone. I used to think they are a reputable company - I can remember photos of IBM written with single atoms and considered that company amazing. Not anymore.

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#249 Post by BBBBozzi » Mon May 05, 2008 12:41 am

Gotta say, NO WAY THIS IS ANYTHING BUT BAD BALL GRID SOLDER!!! FORGET CABLES, LCD, or what not.

I have--- er--- had 2 expensive coasters, the second replaced the first really dead t40 which couldn't post even with pressure on GPU. Then #2 died, smallest movement crashed it.

Just heat gun n go as far as I'm concerned. Did the first one last night and only for practice before the second. Never thought it would even turn on let alone post, and whadda yuh know!! Perfect IBM splash screen first and every time!! Not at all effected by mild flexing, and I hope it holds up!!
95+% improved as far as I can tell. Gonna do the better one tonight or tomorrow, and keep it as a spare if the other one fails again!! *** IF!!**** But it probably will. Seems perfect for now!!

The most reliable fix,by far. I can't really see how the bulk stuffing or wedge method can be a viable alternative except really short term. wasting time. IF this doesn't work, nothing will. Can't lose!!
BUT BE CAREFUL!! It is not too hard!

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#250 Post by mdurisseau » Sun May 11, 2008 9:15 pm

Well, I tried to fix my board by baking it in a toaster oven...even had a more accurate thermometer. I toasted it, literally! No power after I got everything assembled...so I am now looking for a new board for my T40! :( Is there anything special I should look for? My board has 2G of RAM with the ATI 7500 video...I can't tell what the FRU is, though...that sticker burned off...
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#251 Post by kons » Wed May 14, 2008 1:29 pm

I would like to confirm - it's been about three weeks since I heat gunned my three mother boards.
All three laptops work perfectly well.
Bravo, guys who suggested heat guns.
Absolute shame to IBM !!!

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#252 Post by mdurisseau » Wed May 14, 2008 1:40 pm

That's tremendous!!
kons wrote:I would like to confirm - it's been about three weeks since I heat gunned my three mother boards.
All three laptops work perfectly well.
Bravo, guys who suggested heat guns.
Absolute shame to IBM !!!
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#253 Post by sm2k » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:12 pm

Hello, great forum!

I'd just like to confirm the "heat gun reflow" fix worked great on my Thinkpad R32.

My problem looked identical to the one in the video that thehumble1 linked to and that induktor believed to be an LCD issue. The thick band across the top of the screen is one common theme with this issue from all the videos I've seen and my own experience.

It didn't seem like an LCD problem to me though, because it could be triggered by pressing on the keyboard and handrest areas in certain places. I swapped LCD cables without any luck (and $29 down the tubes). I tried using various items as shims under the keyboard as also suggested in this thread. No luck there either. I even tried some heatsink compound on the GPU. Nope.

The laptop was pretty much useless so when I heard about the poor-man's reflow fix in this thread I decided I might as well go for it. I used the follow video as a guide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR8L3B3eDr0

The person in the video uses a heat gun for the reflow procedure, and recommends the following timeline:

60-90 seconds low heat on rear of board
120 seconds high heat on top of board
150-260 seconds high heat on GPU
60-90 seconds of slow cool down with the heat gun
30 minutes cool time

Covering the plastic parts on the motherboard with aluminum foil is very important, and I found that I had to use a lot more foil and cover a lot more area than the video's author did on his T41p motherboard. I covered most of the top of the board except for the GPU and quite a lot of the rear. I should have take pictures, but there's a lot of info out there about this.

I used an industrial strength heat gun which is much more powerful than the variety used in the video -- I could tell just by the way he was able to handle the board while working the gun. I darn near burned my hand off. :) I should have used a thermometer but didn't. I simply backed the gun off quite a lot to compensate for the higher heat. I was just guessing, but I must have gotten it just right. Some of the plastic connectors on the board deformed very slightly and browned, but held their shape enough to still work fine. If I had applied any more heat I think I would have ruined the thing.

Anyhow, I slapped it all back together and it now works great. I've flexed the thing very hard and the video does not flicker at all. No lockups. It's only been a few hours, but that's much better than the few seconds it used to run. I'm assuming from the other people who had success with this method that it should hold at least for a few months. If anything changes I'll post about it.

For anyone else trying this, you should have some heat sink compound or two new thermal pads to reassemble the board. You should also make sure that your aluminum foil job is going to hold in the air blowing from the heat gun...try the gun on cool before you get into it. And segregate your screws -- I finished missing only three, which is a new record! :)

Good luck, and thanks again to everyone for this thread.
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#254 Post by induktor » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:59 pm

Hi sm2k, I'm glad i was wrong and that you made it work!!! great!!

I also wanted to comment, that, I followed to the letter the procedure on that video and I ruined one of my boards (I had a spare, both dead with the same problem).

after a while i decide to give it a go with the other board as well, since it was not useful as it was anyway :)

however I reduced the time to 8 minutes in total, and max temp of 170 degrees C, and it worked perfectly.

I didn't use any aluminium foil, but instead, I build a air concentrator (sorry, don't know the word in english) to increase the temperature in a small area, like the weller smd gun has.

that was about a month ago, and the machine works perfectly so far :D

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#255 Post by BillMorrow » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:11 am

sm2k welcome to the thinkpad community..

interesting commentary re. the heatgun repair..

please give us an update after a month or two..

induktor, you too.. a followup would help others take the chance..

:)
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#256 Post by visionviper » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:37 pm

I have a little update on mine. I have so far gone more than 8 months with no problems.
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Guide to fixing T4x GPU problems via reflow

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#257 Post by induktor » Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:09 am

BillMorrow wrote:sm2k welcome to the thinkpad community..

interesting commentary re. the heatgun repair..

please give us an update after a month or two..

induktor, you too.. a followup would help others take the chance..

:)
Hello

I wanted to tell you that it failed again after about three weeks of usage.

So It's clear not enough to do the procedure I did at lower temperature, but when I did it at the recommended temperature and timmings I complete destroyed one of my mainboards, so my options aren't many nor good :(

I'll try the reflow again at a higher time and temperature, see what happens, anyway, if it decide to die like the other mobo, i can still sell the remaining parts in ebay :roll:

I'll post my results here as soon as I have them.

Also wanted to comment that I did the reflow to an XBOX 360 too that has a similar problem with the video chip, and it also failed after about 2 weeks of usage.

It seems that the heating procedure initially works but the problem with this machines is that the chip works at a very high temperature and the heating - coolling -heating -cooling endless cycle endup producing the failure anyway, maybe we should, after do the reflow process, build some sort of heatsink to avoid such a high temperatures in the chip.

what do you think?.
c-u
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#258 Post by visionviper » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:58 pm

o It's clear not enough to do the procedure I did at lower temperature, but when I did it at the recommended temperature and timmings I complete destroyed one of my mainboards, so my options aren't many nor good
If you used the proper temperature for a reflow it alone (most likely) would not have destroyed the motherboard. There must be something else that happened to cause it to break.

I can't say for sure because I don't know exactly what steps you are taking but IMHO you must be doing something wrong. May I suggest following this guide? I think you will have much better results.

I did a reflow on my T40 and ithas been working strong for almost 9 months now.
Last edited by visionviper on Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#259 Post by induktor » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:26 pm

visionviper wrote: If you used the proper temperature for a reflow it alone (most likely) would not have destroyed the motherboard. There must be something else that happened to cause it to break.

I can't say for sure because I don't know exactly what steps you are taking but IMHO you must be doing something wrong. May I suggest following this guide? I think you will have much better results.

I did a reflow on my T40 and ithas been working strong for almost 9 months now.
Hello

I followed the procedures in that thread when i did the reflow, however, I noticed that the aluminium foil lift up because of the air going under it and in to the board.

I didn't found a way to prevent this, if I use aluminium foil, when i apply air to the GPU the foil lift up like if I was inflating it :(

that's the only thing I could think I did wrong, everything else was exactly as the guide, I used a TES 1327 IR thermometer that I buy specifically for this, and the heat gun in low power setting.

Any ideas of what cause the foil to lift?, i thought of putting something heavy in the corners to avoid that, but it will apply pressure to some chips and I'm not sure if this is a good thing mixed with the heat :D

thanks
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#260 Post by visionviper » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:32 pm

I noticed that the aluminium foil lift up because of the air going under it and in to the board.
The foil is going to lift up if it isn't tight around the edges of the board. Even then - if the foil is still covering the board (even though it may be raised) there should not be any problems.

I am not saying you didn't, but I am going to ask for thoroughness: did you make sure to follow the timings and temperatures as closely as you could?
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#261 Post by underclocker » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:45 am

Maybe the name of this thread should be changed from "T42 shuts down when I move it" to "T4x erratic behavior/freezing/ATI GPU issues"?!

This problem effects all T4x models with ATI GPU's, including T43's.

I think new forum members and lurkers have trouble finding this thread.
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Specialized fix for GPU solder problem

#262 Post by bblesser » Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:31 pm

Having discovered that I had the badly soldered GPU chip in my T42, I researched the topic and solutions. Here is what I found.

Diagnosing the problem as the GPU is often uncertain because depending on which pins are intermittent, the symptoms change. In my case it was relatively easy. While I had the usual crashes, hangs, and failures, occasionally I also had a screen "rip" with corrupted video that could not have come from bad software, i.e. it was analog in nature. I was lucky to get a clear manifestation of the problem, and being an engineer, the implications were clear.

To the best of my knowledge, the problem originated in a particular time period with many manufacturers, including IBM, Dell, and Apple, when they were forced to quickly adapt to the European RoHS requirement of no lead in solder. They had no experience with the new formula and some devices simply did not solder well. It was a hidden defect because the solder joints would only break when mechanical and temperature stress was applied, as in flexing the frame.

At least for me, the magic solution was to contact, Dale Miedema at Superior Reball and Rework, 1-847-426-3012, or customerservice@superiorreball.com. For $50 he turned a piece of landfill junk T42 into a fully functioning laptop. While he has had some bad press from some customers, I found him helpful, friendly, cooperative and most importantly, very competent. I treated him with politeness and respect (which is always a good choice).

I hope this helpful to those who also have the GPU problem in T4x laptops. It beats adding to the toxic landfills.

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Re: Specialized fix for GPU solder problem

#263 Post by koden » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:25 am

bblesser wrote:For $50 he turned a piece of landfill junk T42 into a fully functioning laptop.
What did he do?
I'm danish. Sorry for my sometimes bad english spelling and understanding.

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#264 Post by visionviper » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:36 am

What did he do?
Using re-balling equipment he re-soldered the GPU to the motherboard. This is the best solution for fixing problems caused by faulty solder connections but it is more costly than other options.
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T41 - OS freezes when lid hinges are flexed

#265 Post by cogitordi » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:47 pm

Folks, my T41 is giving me troubles. On boot, the screen does not always work. I have to reboot, sometimes more than once.

When the notebook is working, I can move the lid (flex the hinges) very slowly and all is fine. But if I flex the hinges at a normal speed, the OS (MS Windows) locks up. The screen still shows the OS image but the pointer does not move and input from the keyboard is ignored.

Is this a classic case or what? Bad solder or loose GPU, or both?

Very frustrating. It's a nice notebook otherwise.

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T41 replacement system board question

#266 Post by njtl » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:04 pm

Hi everyone, this thread has been a life saver for me. You guys are really knowledgeable about this stuff. I recently had the same GPU problem with my T41. Problem is, i've had it for almost 4.5 years and the warranty ran out at 3. Twice thus far I have had similar issues and twice IBM has replaced the system board. This last one lasted almost 2 years. Unfortunately, same thing happened again last week and i've got a two thousand dollar door stop at home. I came across this forum and emailed the CEO (as another poster mentioned). IBM got back to me and offered to replace the system board again.

My issue is this, while I am grateful that they are doing this, from reading posts it seems like the "problem" isn't fixed and the new system board they send might last another 2 years or 2 weeks. They are being fairly cooperative with me, does anyone know of a similar system board that doesn't have this problem that will fit in the T41 case? I thought I might as well try to get one that doesn't have this design quirk if possible but I have no idea how to find out what other types of IBM system boards might fit and not have the GPU issue.

Thanks so much in advance, any help would be appreciated.

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Re: T41 replacement system board question

#267 Post by Harryc » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:11 pm

njtl wrote:... does anyone know of a similar system board that doesn't have this problem that will fit in the T41 case?
See this thread.

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#268 Post by madkat » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:17 am

after reading the reflow topic - i've decided in buying a used (but in mint conditon) T41 with 1.4processor, 1gb of ram, cdrw, wireless, bag, original battery etc.
the whole package is a little over 100$ :)
the symptoms are 99% the same as described here - and i hope i can fix it - not sure to replace my trusted T30 - but as a challenge to see if i can do it

later edit:
got the machine - looks as out-of-the box, usb works as 2.0, wireless, everything
but the symptoms are the following:
it can run for hours without shutting down, sometimes you can flex it, move it around, other times it shuts down by itslef or when moved
when i run the pc doctor - after checking 4 of 32mb of videoram it shuts down - and it does every time
later this evening i'll open op the machine and try applying pressure to the GPU - and see what happens
can it be other cause than the GPU?
ex: T30, TR451, TR453, R51, R52, X40, X60, R61, T400, X200
now: T450, i5, 8g, 250ssd

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#269 Post by madkat » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:13 pm

update:
it boots up ok, nomatter how i move/flex it
it shuts down only whem making graphicly intense tasks (if you dont mind my saying so)
when i run pc-doctor for windows it shuts down constantly at step 14/30 from the first set (the 16bit)
i tried different methods of pressing down on the GPU - the best is a heatsink from an old videocard - that presses evenly on the gpu
with that it passes trough the 16 bit, 32 bit (and both the "flicker" tests) it starts even the wireframe test - but after 10 seconds in the wf test it shuts down...
so - what do you think - my guess is right? it't the loose GPU issue?

in my way to the reflowing process i've encountered a problem - heat gun i can find (cheap even) but IR thermometer no...
it there any other way of doing the reflow "blind" - without a thermometer?
or shoud i search for a intel R51/52 mobo :lol: ?
ex: T30, TR451, TR453, R51, R52, X40, X60, R61, T400, X200
now: T450, i5, 8g, 250ssd

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#270 Post by sparta.rising » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:23 pm

madkat wrote:update:
it boots up ok, nomatter how i move/flex it
it shuts down only whem making graphicly intense tasks (if you dont mind my saying so)
when i run pc-doctor for windows it shuts down constantly at step 14/30 from the first set (the 16bit)
i tried different methods of pressing down on the GPU - the best is a heatsink from an old videocard - that presses evenly on the gpu
with that it passes trough the 16 bit, 32 bit (and both the "flicker" tests) it starts even the wireframe test - but after 10 seconds in the wf test it shuts down...
so - what do you think - my guess is right? it't the loose GPU issue?

in my way to the reflowing process i've encountered a problem - heat gun i can find (cheap even) but IR thermometer no...
it there any other way of doing the reflow "blind" - without a thermometer?
or shoud i search for a intel R51/52 mobo :lol: ?
It definitely sounds like the GPU problem. Have you tried ebay for an IR thermometer? A thermocouple will also work. One can be found relatively inexpensively here from dealextreme. But I've never bought it so I can't verify its accuracy. I would NOT recommend blind doing this, I don't see how it would be possible to judge when you reach 230oC

edit: the thermocouple probe included with the dealextreme item I linked to only measures to 200oC
Z61t - C2D 2GHz CPU - 3GB RAM - 320GB HDD - 14.1" WXGA+ - Intel 950 - Travel Bezel

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