Mini review: Advanced Dock with T60p

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#1 Post by **RonS** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:19 am

Here are my notes on the Advanced Dock. I just received two T60p machines (200793U and 2323DDU) with an Advanced Dock.

1. The Advanced Dock is much larger than the Dock II. It's about 1" taller, consumes about 2" more width on the desk, and is about as deep. When you put them side-by-side, the Advanced Dock looks huge.
2. It has SPDIF output
3. It has 5 USB ports, which is one more than the Dock II.
4. It has flash memory slots (CF, etc.)
5. The PCI-e bay has a separate fan to cool the add-on card.
6. It does NOT have any PCMCIA slots. The Dock II has two of them. This is not good for me, because that's how I get firewire support. With the T60p, your only firewire option is to use the PCMCIA slot in the main unit.
7. The main fan is much quieter than that on the Dock II. In fact, I may not even disconnect it like I did on the Dock II. The smaller, secondary fan for the PCIe card is also very quiet.
8. The key and release button are on the left. With the Dock II, they're on the right.
9. The slim bay is on the right. It's on the left with the Dock II.
10. The standard I/O is still on both docks (audio, VGA, DVI, serial, parallel, etc).
10. Overall construction is excellent and it feels very solid.

Performance Notes:
1. [This paragraph was re-written to indicate the dock's support of Dual-link DVI]
Advanced Dock DVI: The DVI supports dual-link DVI-D. Using both a T60p (v5200) and a T61p, I tested a Dell 3007WFP 30" monitor and drive it at it's native 2560x1600 resolution with no problems. It supports a many other physical resolutions (including 1920x1200). I haven't tested any other non-p Thinkpads.

2. The Advanced Dock's Slim bay appears to be bandwidth limited at 34 MB/sec. This is a big disappointment. I tested this by using HDTach to benchmark a 60GB/7200 PATA drive as follows:

T42p, as primary drive: 40MB/sec seq. read, 91 MB/sec burst
T42p, in slim bay: same
T42p, in Dock II: same
T60p, in slim bay: same
T60p, in Advanced Dock: 34 MB/sec seq read, 34 MB/sec burst

I don't have a second SATA 2.5" drive to test a SATA in the Advanced Dock's slim bay. But I'm guessing it would benchmark the same since the T60p's slim bay turned out good performance with a PATA drive.

3. The PCI-Express slot appears to be full-bandwidth, and benchmarks similar to that of a normal tower computer. When taxing a video card in the PCIe slot, the Advanced Dock's secondary fan in the PCIe bay revved up to handle the heat. It got pretty loud during the test. I tested with a program I wrote that performs SRC2SRC BitBlt calls in a tight loop to test internal memory bandwidth, and PLGBLT calls to test the speed of the interface.

I've been playing with video cards that fit the Advanced Dock's PCI-Express x16 slot. Since the PCI-e bay in the dock has a fan to cool the video card, you can use a heatsink video card safely. The PCI-e bay will take a full-height half-length single-slot card. By single slot, I mean that many PCIe video cards are two-slots thick with their huge fans.

The Matrox APVe dual-DVI (max digital res 1920x1200), fits perfectly. It uses a fan which I disconnected to make it quiet. The NVidia NVS280 dual-DVI (max digital res 1600x1200) also fits and uses a heatsink.

So far, the highest-performing heatsink-based card I've found that *should* fit the dock is this one: http://tinyurl.com/n3n5e

Edited to correct the paragraph about support for dual-link DVI.

lithium726 · #2 Post by **lithium726** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:30 pm

Would it be possible to get a picture of the dock? area i am most intersted in is the PCIe slot area... hoping i can modify it to fit a full length card and use that thermaltake +12v video card PSU for power

#3 Post by **RonS** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:29 pm

I'll try to get pictures later. Hosting them may be a trick.

I don't think you'll be able to modify the opening to accomodate a full-length card. That's the first thing I though of, and once you see the design I think you'll agree.

Here's another possible option: http://www.mycableshop.com/sku/PE-FLEX16.htm

With this extender, maybe the video card can reside outside the dock? Someone want to give it a try?

lithium726 · #4 Post by **lithium726** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:47 am

RonS wrote:I'll try to get pictures later. Hosting them may be a trick.

I don't think you'll be able to modify the opening to accomodate a full-length card. That's the first thing I though of, and once you see the design I think you'll agree.

Here's another possible option: http://www.mycableshop.com/sku/PE-FLEX16.htm

With this extender, maybe the video card can reside outside the dock? Someone want to give it a try?

ill give it a shot when i can afford to get a T60 and advanced dock :p

if one can stick, say, a GF7800GT in there... ill just get the regular T60 (non-p) and the dock, part out my desktop completly, and finally be down to one system like i want

csioucs · #5 Post by **csioucs** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:47 am

Well, that sounds enchanting. Having a full range graphics card extended outside the dock. That option has definitely to be tried out. And if it works, then we could easely manufacture a worthy box to keep it in.

If that can be done....desktops are well...

a necessary variation only.

Keep us posted on the results anyone...

Ponch · #6 Post by **Ponch** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:57 pm

Are there any news on that? I would be thrilled if it will be possible to fit a card like a GF7900GT into the dock.
Maybe with a riser card. But I would like to see pictures of that dock. Thanks!

andy6387 · #7 Post by **andy6387** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:51 pm

i'm also really excited to know if this is possible as well. my dock is currently shipping, and i expect the laptop to in the near future.

csioucs · #8 Post by **csioucs** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:12 am

I have a wonder...would the benefit of a higher graphics card run on the dock be seen on the laptop screen or only on secondary displays?

#9 Post by **RonS** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:33 am

I just ordered one of those cables. We'll see if it works!

csioucs · #10 Post by **csioucs** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:47 pm

Rons I saw that You replied in another thread about it...I mean about the possibility of seeing the results on the laptop screen and setting in bios which graphics card to use...have you tried that?

Are the cables on the way? Don't intend to bug, but I am really anxious, so please do tell us the results when the riser cable arrives.

Thanks.

FuguTabetai · #11 Post by **FuguTabetai** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:53 am

csioucs wrote:Rons I saw that You replied in another thread about it...I mean about the possibility of seeing the results on the laptop screen and setting in bios which graphics card to use...have you tried that?

Personally I don't see how that is possible because the LCD on the laptop is only connected to the integrated graphics chip.

It isn't impossible, but I've never heard of a graphics card that can send data back down the bus to the integrated graphics chip to the LCD.

#12 Post by **RonS** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:10 pm

IT WORKED!

I ordered the copy on this link: http://www.mycableshop.com/sku/PE-FLEX16.htm

plugged it into the Advanced Dock's PCI Express slot, and then plugged an NVidia 7800 GTX card on the other end. THe 7800GTX card came from a Dell XPS600 system, and it huge. It's double-thick and has a large fan.

I installed the NVidia driver and all worked fine. I extended my desktop to it, ran apps on it, and it behaved as a normal card. On the second re-boot, I got a message that the NVidia card was not being supplied enough power. I'm sure that's because I wasn't providing any external power that's needed for high-current cards (there's a special plug on the card to get power directly from the power supply on desktop systems). Call of Duty started to play, but then the system blue-screened, again probably from the power problem. I'll have to rig up an external power supply to supply card card with enough power.

The cable I got was the stock 3" cable (over 4.25"). If I were to order again, I'd get a 4" cable because the 3" cable isn't long enough to let the card clear the edge of the dock. I had to put the whole dock on thick books to make room for the card to sit underneath.

lithium726 · #13 Post by **lithium726** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:20 pm

SWEET!

Thermaltake makes a 12v power supply meant for CF/SLI systems that fits in a 5.25 bay, try it out with that

Razorback · #14 Post by **Razorback** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:11 pm

When you add a video card to the PCI-e slot on the dock, are you forced to shutdown the OS to undock? Or can you hot-undock?

On my T42p, any video card I tried in the dock required me to shutdown in order to undock.

#15 Post by **RonS** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:33 pm

With the T60, you still can't undock while running a video card.

csioucs · #16 Post by **csioucs** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:19 pm

Most excellent news RonS! You actually enhanced the Video Capabilities of the laptop to full desktop level, if we understand correctly.

This is a huge pro for the advanced dock, now I could do almost anything with the laptop.

Your input means a lot in the decision about the dock. Thank you very much.

Ponch · #17 Post by **Ponch** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:27 pm

Look at the picture and you can clearly see that the PCIe port is connected with just 1 Lane(It looks like) to the dock.

@RonS

Have you made benchmarks of your 7800GTX Card and can you post the results?

How fast is 1 PCIe Lane compared to the old AGB 8x standard?

edit: I have found some numbers: PCIe 1x = 500MB/s
AGP 8x = 2,128MB/s
So the graphic card at 1 PCIe Lane have to be a lot slower than in a normal desktop 16x board.
Can you confirm this RonS?

#18 Post by **RonS** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:57 pm

Tel me what benchmark program you're quoting, so we can compare apples to apples.

Where in your picture do you see anything that indicates only x1?

Ponch · #19 Post by **Ponch** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:19 am

RonS wrote:Tel me what benchmark program you're quoting, so we can compare apples to apples.

Where in your picture do you see anything that indicates only x1?

Simple bench 3DMark05 and 3DMark06 please.

If you look at the connections from the Slot to the Base you'll see that there is only a very short connection. I think to have full 16x lanes you must have connected all the pins from the 16x Slot to the internal electronics in the dock.

#20 Post by **RonS** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:56 pm

Okay, I've done the benchmarking and have some additional information.

First, I want to address the question that the Advanced Dock's PCI-Express is anything other than x16. I looked at every solder joint, and they're all connected. Look at this page near the middle and you'll se a pictures of the connectors. The dock has the X16 version.

I dragged a Dell box over near my setup and used it to give the 7800GTX card its much-needed external power. I started the Call of Duty 2 demo version and got less-than-stellar frame rates. In my original post, I mentioned that a hard drive in the Dock's slim bay is bandwidth limited to around 34MB/sec, and it appears that there is also some kind of bottleneck affecting the PCI-Express as well. This dock isn't as "Advanced" as I would like to believe. My original benchmark used exercised only 2D capabilities. These new tests are all 3D.

I ran three versions of 3DMark on both the Thinkpad's v5200 and the NVidia 7800GTX installed outside the dock.

Thinkpad V5200 (ATI X1400)
3DMark03: 5064
3DMark05: 3877
3DMark06: 1336

NVidia 7800GTX running on Dock's PCI-Express x16
3DMark03: 9820
3DMark05: 4039
3DMark06: 2182

I'm setting up my dock to be silent so that I can use it in everyday mode without the fan noise. I bought a GeForce 7600GS card with a heatsink (no fan) to run full-time inside the dock, and it's working well. I disconnected the power to the little fan in the bay so stop that noise, and then left the bay cover off to give it some air flow. That all seems to be working great. Next, I'm going to disconnect the main fan power and I should be totally silent. I did the same think on the Dock II and it worked flawlessly for years.

The only defect I have to address on my T60p is the screen flicker. It happens about every 10 minutes or so, the external display flickers. If you set the BIOS to use the PCI-Express as boot primary, the flicker happens on both displays (external and the primary Thinkpad screen).

Ponch · #21 Post by **Ponch** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:09 pm

RonS wrote:Okay, I've done the benchmarking and have some additional information.

First, I want to address the question that the Advanced Dock's PCI-Express is anything other than x16. I looked at every solder joint, and they're all connected. Look at this page near the middle and you'll se a pictures of the connectors. The dock has the X16 version.

I dragged a Dell box over near my setup and used it to give the 7800GTX card its much-needed external power. I started the Call of Duty 2 demo version and got less-than-stellar frame rates. In my original post, I mentioned that a hard drive in the Dock's slim bay is bandwidth limited to around 34MB/sec, and it appears that there is also some kind of bottleneck affecting the PCI-Express as well. This dock isn't as "Advanced" as I would like to believe. My original benchmark used exercised only 2D capabilities. These new tests are all 3D.

I ran three versions of 3DMark on both the Thinkpad's v5200 and the NVidia 7800GTX installed outside the dock.

Thinkpad V5200 (ATI X1400)
3DMark03: 5064
3DMark05: 3877
3DMark06: 1336

NVidia 7800GTX running on Dock's PCI-Express x16
3DMark03: 9820
3DMark05: 4039
3DMark06: 2182

I'm setting up my dock to be silent so that I can use it in everyday mode without the fan noise. I bought a GeForce 7600GS card with a heatsink (no fan) to run full-time inside the dock, and it's working well. I disconnected the power to the little fan in the bay so stop that noise, and then left the bay cover off to give it some air flow. That all seems to be working great. Next, I'm going to disconnect the main fan power and I should be totally silent. I did the same think on the Dock II and it worked flawlessly for years.

The only defect I have to address on my T60p is the screen flicker. It happens about every 10 minutes or so, the external display flickers. If you set the BIOS to use the PCI-Express as boot primary, the flicker happens on both displays (external and the primary Thinkpad screen).

Thanks!

The slot may be soldered with every pin but if you look at the connection to the dock internals you will see that this is only a very small connection. It looks like there is only 1 lane going to the dock. Can you look at this again and maybe take some pictures?

The performance is very poor. The 7800GTX has to be much faster than your results. Too sad it isn't a full speed PCIe port.

astro · #22 Post by **astro** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:25 pm

Ponch wrote:The slot may be soldered with every pin but if you look at the connection to the dock internals you will see that this is only a very small connection. It looks like there is only 1 lane going to the dock.

I have to agree with Ponch, based on the picture posted above.

The full-width (x16) connector is only a riser board connected to the dock with what looks like a x4 connector.

#23 Post by **RonS** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:03 pm

PONCH IS RIGHT.

I didn't notice that the x16 slot is on an x4 riser card. Now that I do, your post is perfectly clear.

I removed the riser card and looked inside the gap to see if there was any solder points that could be used to mod this up to x16, but there aren't any. Why wouldn't IBM/Lenovo make this a full-blown x16? How expensive can it be?

Anyway, it doesn't matter too much for me. I'm running a heatsink-based 7600GS card in the slot. 3DMark is 7383, but I'm just using it to run desktop/2D applications (application development and image processing).

I have both of the Dock's fans disconnected and all is still going fine. It feels cool to the touch. The PCI-Express cover is still off to the heatsink can get some air.

adr1974 · #24 Post by **adr1974** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:41 pm

Ron,

First, thanks for all the information you've provided. I just started learning about PCIe, and I never realized you could add a graphics card to a docking station.

I was originally going to get a T60p, but now I'm intrigued. I was wondering if you could tell me how the 7600GS compares to the ATI V5200.

Thanks!

lithium726 · #25 Post by **lithium726** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:00 pm

*sigh*

there goes my ditch the desktop idea, i guess ill just live with it... im growing to like it more recently anyhow

Ponch · #26 Post by **Ponch** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:14 am

So when it is 4x PCIe it should be 2000MB/s and as fast as AGP 8x.
And we all knew AGP 8xshould be fast enough for most cards.
So why are your 3DMark results so low? Or is it maybe really just a 1x PCIe Slot?

What about the drivers? How did you install ATI and Nvidia drivers on the same System? Please report about that. Maybe there is something wrong and the performance drop has to do with driver installations.

astro · #27 Post by **astro** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:20 am

astro wrote:The full-width (x16) connector is only a riser board connected to the dock with what looks like a x4 connector.

Ponch wrote:So why are your 3DMark results are so low? Or is it maybe really just a 1x PCIe Slot?

Sorry, I was going to say something about this before -- after I posted that I realised that I meant to type x1 connector, not x4. But that is based on the picture. RonS should be able to confirm.

#28 Post by **RonS** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:43 pm

Yup - I should have been typing x1. Consider it a typo.

Ponch · #29 Post by **Ponch** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:17 pm

Ron, can you tell us how the 7600 GeForce card performs? Is it as fast as the 7800GTX in the Dock? Because when in a desktop the 7600 should have similar results in 3DMark as your 7800GTX.

#30 Post by **RonS** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:52 pm

I ran the benchmarks on the 7600GS card installed in the dock. I put a fan on the 7600's heatsink to prevent it from reaching its Core Slowdown Temperature, which can easily happen during these benchmarks since I disconnected the PCI-Express bay fan to reduce noise.

Here are all of my benchmarks:

Thinkpad T60p V5200 (ATI X1600)
3DMark03: 5064
3DMark05: 3877
3DMark06: 1336

NVidia 7800GTX running on Dock's PCI-Express x16 slot, wired as x1
3DMark03: 9820
3DMark05: 4039
3DMark06: 2182

NVidia 7600GS running on Dock's PCI-Express x16 slot, wired as x1
3DMark03: 7394
3DMark05: 3351
3DMark06: 1848

This post has been edited to remove inaccurate 7600GS numbers that were a result of the card hitting against its core slowdown temp.

Mini review: Advanced Dock with T60p

Mini review: Advanced Dock with T60p

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