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T60P VS MBP, now that it can run windows......

T60/T61 Series
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ayja
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T60P VS MBP, now that it can run windows......

#1 Post by ayja » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:26 am

Can someone let me know if autocad/maya/rhino/any type of rendering.... runs smoothly on the MBP? Also if someone has the t60p, can they compare the two? I am interested how in open gl apps, the ati 1600 compares to the ati 5200. Thanks.

ageyfman
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#2 Post by ageyfman » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:51 am

at this point, the MBP looks like the better machine: tough exoskeleton, runs both OSX and XP Legally, all of the drivers work (except, inexplicably, the backlit keyboard, isight and one or two more - should work by the time this thing gets out of beta). The price is similar to that of t60p (some cases cheaper even!!).

I've been waiting for my T for 7 weeks now, and I am pretty sick of it, so I might just go out an get me one of those bad boys myself.
2623DDU T60p - 2.0 ghz Core Duo, 2 Gb Ram, 256MB FireGL V5200, 100Gb 7200 RPM HD
SOLD - MacBook Pro - 2.0 Ghz Core Duo, 2 Gb Ram, 256 x1600, 100Gb 7200 RPM HD

Sottozero
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#3 Post by Sottozero » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:02 am

I've just RMA'ed my T60p and have purchased a MBP. FWIW.

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#4 Post by ayja » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:30 am

Do they give you any problems? We have 30 days right? Do we just lose the shipping cost or does that get reinbursed as well? Let me know how if works out...

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#5 Post by cj3209 » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:46 am

I don't understand - maybe I'm missing something.

The purpose of 'BootCamp' was to allow mac users the occasional use of windows; essentially a Virtual PC upgrade. But people are looking at the MBP as another windows machine. I don't buy that. And that's why I use a T43p AND an Al PB15".

:wink: :wink:

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#6 Post by pundit » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:54 am

ayja wrote:Do they give you any problems? We have 30 days right? Do we just lose the shipping cost or does that get reinbursed as well? Let me know how if works out...
I didn't return it because of this news, but I didn't need to pay for anything. They asked me whether I had contacted tech. support about my problem and had a case number, and the moment I said yes, they sent me free shipping labels (or a box if you prefer) home.

They were very very nice about all of it. I am more than impressed.
Happily picks up his three grand; unhappily hands it over to another company.

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#7 Post by Ponch » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:59 am

ageyfman wrote:at this point, the MBP looks like the better machine: tough exoskeleton, runs both OSX and XP Legally, all of the drivers work (except, inexplicably, the backlit keyboard, isight and one or two more - should work by the time this thing gets out of beta). The price is similar to that of t60p (some cases cheaper even!!).

I've been waiting for my T for 7 weeks now, and I am pretty sick of it, so I might just go out an get me one of those bad boys myself.
In my eyes the Thinpad is the better machine. Here a few points where the Thinpad is far superior:

1. better warranty
2. better keyboard
3. Trackpoint
4. upgradable HDD without loosing warranty
5. Ultrabay
6. 9-cell battary available for longer batterylife
7. more durably build quality
8. lighter(14")
9. don't get so hot(mbp gets really hot)
10. fingerprint reader
11. faster and better DVD burner
12. mbp has just 1 mouse button. That's kind of strange.
Last edited by Ponch on Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#8 Post by kwramm » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:01 pm

ageyfman wrote:at this point, the MBP looks like the better machine: tough exoskeleton...
I guess it depends what you need. The trackpoint, 2 extra mouse buttons, a dock and a swappable ultra bay are things I miss at the MBP. Guess it's a tough choice for some of us. ;) btw, the issue about the MBP getting hot may be solved with the next revision (Rev D), depending on what apple considers an acceptable temperature.

I just hope I can get OS X (yes I do own OS X, although the PPC version only) to run on my Thinkpad for the occasional mac program I want to run.

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#9 Post by BudC » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:29 pm

My wife has an iMac and the only Apple software I would care about is iPhoto. iTunes even works better on my PC than on the iMac.

One of the major reasons I didn't buy a MacBook is Apple's lack of software. The other reasons are cost and the heat/noise problems.

On the other hand, the iMac is one beautiful machine. Too bad I can't install Boot Camp on it but it's a PowerPC.

Anyway, I am currently waiting for a new T60 2007-76U to be shipped to me. When Apple releases Leopard, I hope I can install it on the T60.

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#10 Post by ageyfman » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:08 pm

Notes about the alleged superiority of the Thinkpad:
1) better warranty - not really. If you live in a city, like I do, there is probably an Apple Store near by (Chicago has several nearby), and they will fix your laptop or replace it ON THE SPOT - I got the 3 year extension, so I am covered for all three years
2) keyboard - maybe, maybe not - but the apple has a BACKLIT keyboard, and that light on top of the thinkpad, really, doesn't cut in in dark areas. Almost, but not really
3) I love the trackpoint, I will give it to you
4) yes, apparently that's the case, althought I am sure I'll figure out some way around it (like bring it into the apple store for like 50 bucks)
5) ultrawhat? never used any of those gimics. I don't need a second harddrive, nor do I need anything else there. I need an optical drive and a battery
6) 9 cell is great, sucks to give it up
7) questionable - the macbook is a VERY TOUGH exoskeleton. Aluminum tough. VERY, VERY durable. I've got an older Ti-Book and even it is good. My friend has had his Powerbook for 4 years, nothing AT ALL wrong w/ it
8) I need the bigger one anyhow, so not a problem
9) yes, I heard
10) who cares
11) they say that DVD is 4x on both, as far as better, why do you think so?
12) yes, it is strange. But dual touch is WAY nicer than single touch.

Benefits of Apple:
1) immediate availability
2) excellent form
3) camera built in
4) extremely thin (thinner than either of the T60s)
5) if you've ever broken a power adapter (or your laptop's power connection): MAG SAFE!!!
6) digital audio out!!!! (for dvds)
7) DVI built in!!!!!!
8) Remote control for presentations
9) Firewire (I personally don't care about this much, although my iPod is firewire - 3G, I am upgrading it soon)
10) did I mention it's gorgeous?

Anyway, both run XP very well, and both are awesome. But when the choices are 50 bucks apart, IBM has to really begin shipping theirs out sooner.

On that note, I just bought myself a MBP, and still have a T60P on the way.
2623DDU T60p - 2.0 ghz Core Duo, 2 Gb Ram, 256MB FireGL V5200, 100Gb 7200 RPM HD
SOLD - MacBook Pro - 2.0 Ghz Core Duo, 2 Gb Ram, 256 x1600, 100Gb 7200 RPM HD

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#11 Post by Sottozero » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:10 pm

ayja wrote:Do they give you any problems? We have 30 days right? Do we just lose the shipping cost or does that get reinbursed as well? Let me know how if works out...
I have to pay shipping, but that's no big deal. Otherwise, it's a full refund.

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#12 Post by Sottozero » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:12 pm

BudC wrote:
Anyway, I am currently waiting for a new T60 2007-76U to be shipped to me. When Apple releases Leopard, I hope I can install it on the T60.
Leopard won't be officially installable on greybox PCs. It might be hackable, but then you'll have the cat-and-mouse game where every Apple update breaks the hack, and you need to find a better hack, ad infinitum...

Apple is all about platform control -- they want and need to control the hardware. Apple is, after all, predominately a hardware company.

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#13 Post by pundit » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:13 pm

Sottozero wrote:
ayja wrote:Do they give you any problems? We have 30 days right? Do we just lose the shipping cost or does that get reinbursed as well? Let me know how if works out...
I have to pay shipping, but that's no big deal. Otherwise, it's a full refund.
More importantly, since you were unsure from the beginning (as many others are/were) at least this way you got/get to honestly evaluate both options and make a rational decision. I think this is a good thing.

I don't know of many other companies who are so open to customers doing this.
Happily picks up his three grand; unhappily hands it over to another company.

ageyfman
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#14 Post by ageyfman » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:16 pm

pundit, why did you get rid of your T60p?
2623DDU T60p - 2.0 ghz Core Duo, 2 Gb Ram, 256MB FireGL V5200, 100Gb 7200 RPM HD
SOLD - MacBook Pro - 2.0 Ghz Core Duo, 2 Gb Ram, 256 x1600, 100Gb 7200 RPM HD

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#15 Post by pundit » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:18 pm

ageyfman wrote:pundit, why did you get rid of your T60p?
This has to be added to some new sort of FAQ :D. I was having a major problem with a minor issue on my screen, and they weren't willing to acknowledge its presence.
Happily picks up his three grand; unhappily hands it over to another company.

Ponch
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#16 Post by Ponch » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:32 pm

I think the design of the actual MBP is boring. It was great a few years ago but not today. Apple will bring a complete new design with the new merom generation. I am sure they will.

DVD burner on the T60 is 6x or 8x. Not a 4x. Thats for sure.
It also burns dual layer which the apple one doesn't.

Keyboard is really much better at the Thinkpads. The Apple keyboard is like every other notebook keyboard. Not even close to my NMB Keyboard.

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#17 Post by kwramm » Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:00 pm

given the bay design of the t60 you should be able to just swap your dvd drive for a better one if they become available, no?

That's what I did so far on my now pretty old fujitsu notebook - just get a new dvd module if the old one isn't fast enough anymore.

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#18 Post by Phantom Gremlin » Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:43 pm

Ponch wrote: In my eyes the Thinpad is the better machine. Here a few points where the Thinpad is far superior:
You omitted the most important feature for me. I love the minidock / replicator. Here at work I have 6 items plugged into the minidock:

ethernet
DVI
external HD
mouse
KB
power

That's 6 things I don't need to disconnect/connect when I take my notebook with me.

If I could get a Thinkpad with OS X, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

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#19 Post by cj3209 » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:44 pm

Let me respond here for fun...
:)

1) [better warranty - not really. If you live in a city, like I do, there is probably an Apple Store near by (Chicago has several nearby), and they will fix your laptop or replace it ON THE SPOT - I got the 3 year extension, so I am covered for all three years]

I have a 15" PB and I've had to visit the store a few times. First of all the waiting is pretty bad (average of an hour to 1.5 hours) and the geniuses can only fix very basic problems. My logic board needed to get replaced and they had to send it out; I could have mailed the PB to Apple and skipped the long lines and parking so it's not a big deal to have an apple store around for warranty purposes. The cost of AppleCare is also pretty expensive: almost $400 for a PB. All-in-all, both companies have pretty good service when it comes to waranty-work.


2) [keyboard - maybe, maybe not - but the apple has a BACKLIT keyboard, and that light on top of the thinkpad, really, doesn't cut in in dark areas. Almost, but not really]

The Thinkpad keyboard is hands-down better than the PB. BUT, I do like the fiber-optic lit PB keyboard over the Thinklight. Although the thinklight on the T60 is the best I've used - wide angle.


3) [ love the trackpoint, I will give it to you]

I actually like the PB's two-finger scroll feature.


5) [ultrawhat? never used any of those gimics. I don't need a second harddrive, nor do I need anything else there. I need an optical drive and a battery]

The ability of the TP to have multiple configurations is a great strength; Apple should copy this ability: dual batteries, dual hard drives, spacesaver, and the flexibility to interchange the media bay from the TP to your ThinkDock is a HUGE advantage.

6) [9 cell is great, sucks to give it up]

My PB battery life sucks, literally only about 2.5 hours max. I always have to have a spare battery on hand.

7) [questionable - the macbook is a VERY TOUGH exoskeleton. Aluminum tough. VERY, VERY durable. I've got an older Ti-Book and even it is good. My friend has had his Powerbook for 4 years, nothing AT ALL wrong w/ it]

I rank both the TP (T43p) and my 15" Al PB to be very similar in terms of strength. Both are very rigid. I'm impressed with both machines.

Working with both a T43p and a 15" Al PB (1.67 G4), I like both machines but for different purposes: when I want to get serious work done, I use the TP; for fun and entertainment, I grab the PB.

My two cents...
8) 8) :lol:

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#20 Post by donking! » Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:28 pm

cj3209 wrote:The purpose of 'BootCamp' was to allow mac users the occasional use of windows; essentially a Virtual PC upgrade. But people are looking at the MBP as another windows machine. I don't buy that. And that's why I use a T43p AND an Al PB15".
Am I missing something? It's my understanding that bootcamp means Windows runs native on the MacBook (that was really true even with the hack solution). But now from Apple you get driver support (which eventually should have the kinks worked out for isight, keyboard back light, etc.). So this is the MacBook as a fully native Windows machine. No comparison to Virtual PC at all.

In that respect, it seems to me that there is no question, for those who want to dual boot Windows and OS X, that the MacBook is a far better solution (than hacks and patches and driver issues on a ThinkPad with OS X). In fact, doesn't it mean you really don't even have to be a power user now to run Windows on a MacBook?

Also, for anyone who loves the MacBook design but wants Windows, there's really no reason not to go that way. Windows should now be just as good on the MacBook as another other PC. No?

*

That aside, I believe the battery life on the ThinkPads is much better, even without the 9-cell. At least on a 14" configuration, people are getting around 5 hours with a 6-cell. That's compared to 3 hours on the MacBook.

Also the multi-burner in the ThinkPad is 8x for DVD-R (4x MacBook), 16x for CD-RW (10x MacBook).

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#21 Post by pundit » Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:43 pm

donking! wrote:Also the multi-burner in the ThinkPad is 8x for DVD-R (4x MacBook), 16x for CD-RW (10x MacBook).
At which point you start setting aside the technical considerations and begin to ask yourself, "But, is it sexier?"
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#22 Post by donking! » Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:28 pm

Um, I don't think I understand. :D Isn't a twice as fast DVD burner a pretty significant technical difference?

It's the keyboard light comparison that makes me slap my forehead in bewilderment (though I know there are those of you who looooovvve the MacBook backlit keyboard and there's nothing wrong with that).

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#23 Post by christopher_wolf » Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:46 pm

The backlit keyboard is a good idea, but the ThinkLight has some uses that a backlit keyboard doesn't. In a significantly dark setting, i.e. one that isn't just "annoyingly" dark, you can actually use it to illuminate part of the surroundings; thereby allowing you to read and/or write clearly even in the dark. You just get some more area illumination with the ThinkLight. They both do a great job of lighting up the great keyboards on both my Thinkpads and Powerbooks. :)
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#24 Post by mlli4 » Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:27 pm

I have no interest in running Windows Xp on Apple computer. What attracts me from Apple is not its hardware but OSX. OS X is far better than Windows. It is pointless for me to run Windows on Apple. It is more interesting to to run OS X on thinkpad. Hope Apple will do that(though almost impossible).

I checked Apple's hardware, it is good. But it is so hard to upgrade. And 3 year warranty apple care is too expensive. Thinkpad is good. Check its maintenance manual. Unlike apple, there is nothing hidden, you know everything you want to know about Thinkpad.

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#25 Post by kwramm » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:52 am

Did anyone try XP on a MBP yet? I am curious how the right mouse button issue is solved. Is is like in OS X, where Ctrl+click = right click?

I really do not understand how apple could be so stupid. There has been right click context menus since OS 8. Now there is even the Mighty Mouse which has been released before the MBP. Yet the Macbook just has one mouse button! Someone in Apple's design department really missed what's going on.

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#26 Post by MaloventEvil » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:59 am

i dont know why people think the macbook pro is better looking than the thinkpad; everyone i know that is a mac enthusiast loves the looks of the thinkpad. the MBP is too wide.

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#27 Post by donking! » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:51 am

mlli4 wrote:It is pointless for me to run Windows on Apple. It is more interesting to to run OS X on thinkpad. Hope Apple will do that(though almost impossible).
Yeah, I don't think Apple will ever license OS X for other platforms. As many have noted, Apple is essentially a hardware company. That's where they make their money. So licensing OS X would just lose them hardware sales. Whereas facilitating XP on the Macs should gain them hardware sales.
kwramm wrote:I really do not understand how apple could be so stupid. There has been right click context menus since OS 8. Now there is even the Mighty Mouse which has been released before the MBP. Yet the Macbook just has one mouse button! Someone in Apple's design department really missed what's going on.
I think for a long time the single mouse button concept was mean to fit in with Apple's idea of user friendliness. The single mouse button seemed like a simpler and cleaner solution. I'm not defending this idea. I just think that's what the idea was. With the advent of the mighty mouse it seems like the days of the single mouse button on Apple's notebooks are probably numbered.

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#28 Post by Ponch » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:22 am

MaloventEvil wrote:i dont know why people think the macbook pro is better looking than the thinkpad; everyone i know that is a mac enthusiast loves the looks of the thinkpad. the MBP is too wide.
Yeah, even my girlfriend(a hardcore mac fanatic) loves my new Thinkpad. She would buy one immediately if only OS X will run on these machienes.
The Powerbook/MBP design was good a few years ago(I was owner of a 15" Powerbook) but now it is not as great as it was. I bet Apple will come with a total new design for the next generation MacBook Pro. They just kept it because the wanted the people to show that it is still a Mac even with the Intel processors in there. the same with the iMac. Normaly they change their design when a completly new processor.

The design of the Thinkpad is timeless. It has a very special looking and black is beatiful. It looks like a tough professional notebook which will follow you everyway you go. It is nothing which makes you think you have to touch with velvet gloves(like the MBP and Powerbooks).
They more look like some notebook which Agent Mulder can carry all day long to every place he go. ;-)

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#29 Post by Ponch » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:29 am

donking! wrote:I think for a long time the single mouse button concept was mean to fit in with Apple's idea of user friendliness. The single mouse button seemed like a simpler and cleaner solution. I'm not defending this idea. I just think that's what the idea was. With the advent of the mighty mouse it seems like the days of the single mouse button on Apple's notebooks are probably numbered.
Maybe the one mouse button was a good idea but now it is just that it WAS a good idea. Even when using OS X I need a second mouse button.
And new apple mighty mouse shows that Apple knows that.
I think it is only a matter of time when Apple also brings a second mouse button to their notebooks.
It makes work so much easier.

Look at Thinkpad's Ultranav. They have 3 buttons and I use them all. Makes work way easier. Especially the great location under the trackpoint.

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#30 Post by kwramm » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:02 pm

yeah I knew why apple stuck with single buttons for a long while. I am just perplexed why they first make an OS supporting 2 buttons. Then introduce the 2 button mouse a couple of years after that. And then yet again make a one button notebook - it's just a step backward!

btw, for those loving the illuminated MBP keyboard. I just read that this is an OS X only feature as there's no windows driver supplied by apple to turn it on. Also the apple USB modem does not work with XP....just in case someone wants to get a MBP as replacement for an XP running T60.
The iSight and remote control don't work either with XP.

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