X6Xx - cool and quiet - which mods/cpu/chassis yields the best result?

[xsixt]

I have a L2400 (1.66 Ghz) X60T which was running extremely hot when I first received it. So I did these two things:

Swapped out the 3945 WLAN card for a 6200N,
Reapplied thermal grease to the cpu die and the die next to it and tossed the heat pad.

While it probably knocked anywhere between 1-5C off, it didn't yield the huge result I was expecting, as the palmrest is still uncomfortably warm. After the mods, the CPU temp idles at approx 46-51 C when I first turn the machine on. Just browsing, it can easily hit 70C. The fan maxes out at ~4100 rpm.

I am now trying to find out if it's possible to get any X6X(s) running cool and quiet. If I understand correctly, the L2300 (and hopefully the L2400) should run comparatively cool. This thread, http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=74489, claims that the L2300 1.5 X60s is one of the coolest running. If that's the case, why doesn't the L2400 also idle cool? Is this something to do with the casing of the X6Xs compared to the X60T?

I have a few options left, but I am skeptical:

1. Swap the palmrest for a model with the better copper heat shielding (mine has the silver shielding). Does the X61T palmrest have added vents is that only the X61 palmrest?

2. Try another fan? My fan seems almost new though, as the machine seems almost NOS.

3. Ditch the X60T for an X6Xs (or X6X?)

Thanks for any insight offered.

[jaspen-meyer]

Is your mobile phone noisy?

Idling at 50C sounds promising.
70c while browsing just sounds like you're using the wrong browser and possible some additional programs which are working more when you're browsing.

Years ago I switched to thinkpads and Linux in order to get a silent computer.

Some more barbaric ideas:
Have you tried unplugging the fan, or adding an electro-mechanical regulator to the fan?
I haven't tried it with thinkpads, but I used to stick a plain old on/off switch on the + wire heading to the fan and would then cut a hole in the case and mount the switch.
You can also stop the fan with software but I'm not sure what software does that AND works with your OS.
Maybe tpfan, you'd have to check.

Use a lighter weight web browser.
Turn off javascript when it's not needed.
Turn off your anti-virus program.
Don't keep a lot of tabs open.
Replace mechanical HDD with a power-effecient ssd, one with low Active and Idle watts.

[xsixt]

I probably should clarify - I was wondering which cpu of the X60/X61 range put out the lowest thermal load at idle. So I could then have a machine that didn't need to be running the guts out of the fan to keep it cool at idle.

I have since researched more on the topic, and if I have this generally correct: the X6x series has poor air circulation particularly around the palmrests, and it gets very hot underneath. So even if the cpu was cool, the rest of the machine is cooking because of poor airflow, because the cpu fan is too far from the problem areas. It seems the X61 fan / WAN card add-on helped this a little, but couldn't overcome the poor thermal design.

[RealBlackStuff]

I have an X60s (1702-A11) with an X61s/L7500 (7666-3EU) motherboard in it.
And I also have an X61s/L7300 (7667-C54).
Both have Intel 6200 wifi and run relatively cool with W7-Pro 32-bit, 4GB RAM and a small SSD.
I've never 'recorded' their temperature because they only feel lukewarm (to me).
Since I'm nowadays using an X200s for traveling, both machines are for sale.
PM me if interested.

[jaspen-meyer]

I've got an x61s with an L7500.
It's running Linux and the fan is kept OFF for temperatures under 70C.

Initially the palm rest was uncomfortably hot during idle and web browsing.
Replacing the wifi card with a half-sized Intel 6205 lowered the temperature at the palm rest but it was still too hot.

As I type this the palm rest sensor is reporting 38C. CPU temp is 45C.
Fan has not been on at all since boot.

The changes I've made:

• - remove hard drive door
  - remove speaker
  - wedge the pcmcia door ajar
  - remove stickers from bottom of laptop
  - remove modem card
  - remove one DIMM
  - replace wifi with half-sized Intel 6205
  - (experimental) use RAM with lower clock rate
  - (experimental) add silver coin
  - (experimental) place laptop on a bed of desktop memory heatsinks
  - (BIOS) turn off multi-core
  - cap cpu frequency at 1.2gHz
  - lower wifi TX power from 30mW (default) to 1mW
  - turn wifi power management ON
  - replace HD with a miniature san disk ssd

Some ideas came from the pdf "Heat Sink Basics" by Cisco:
http://www.vettecorp.com/support/downlo ... ore_v6.pdf

TO TRY:
- drill vents into bottom cover
- drill vents into either palm rest or keyboard

[xsixt]

Thanks for the offer, but I'll pass as I've given up on acquring any more X60xxs for the time being and am going down the X200/X201 route...

Perhaps the X6X/X6Xs have slightly better ventilation or lower TDP cpus than the tablet models.
I have a half-sized 6200N in my X60T, but yours still runs 5 degrees cooler at idle.

Maybe it's not that hot but I just can't handle the wifi under my wrist. I've been using a T60P and that's like heaven in comparison

[jaspen-meyer]

I tried an x200s but I couldn't get it to be silent - there was constant electrical noise.
So now I'm waiting on an x220.

(Temps as I type this are Core: 50C; Palm Rest 39C)

[axur-delmeria]

Perhaps the X6X/X6Xs have slightly better ventilation or lower TDP cpus than the tablet models.

The Tablet versions use the same CPUs as the slim (X60s, X61s) versions-- 17 watt TDP low-voltage Core Duo/Core 2 Duo.

[jaspen-meyer]

I did some incremental testing as follows:
1. With no user-land power management and with computing idling for 30 minuets palm rest was 46c.
2. Adding a copper plate below the machine lowered temp to 43c.
3. Limiting cpu to 1.2ghz and running power management script and just one core lowered temp to 39c.
4. Drilling holes in palm rest lowered temp to 37c.

next up, drill holes in bottom casing.

[axur-delmeria]

jaspen-meyer,
It would be great if you take pictures of the modifications you've made.

[xsixt]

Perhaps the X6X/X6Xs have slightly better ventilation or lower TDP cpus than the tablet models.

The Tablet versions use the same CPUs as the slim (X60s, X61s) versions-- 17 watt TDP low-voltage Core Duo/Core 2 Duo.

Thank you. So, the TDP is similar between Yonah and Merom LV cpus, so there technically shouldn't be much heat difference between them. But is the Merom more efficient in real terms?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... on_figures

I would like to try out a X6xT, X6xs and X6x side by side to feel the heat difference around the chassis. My ultimate goal is knowing whether it would be worth throwing a Flexview screen X6x or X6xs over a tablet, besides the weight difference.

+1 on the pics jaspen-meyer Those mods sound good!

[jaspen-meyer]

It would be great if you take pictures of the modifications you've made.

The main way to lower temperature on these machines was uncovered on this forum years ago:
1. replace the wifi card with a half-sized card,
2. turn on wifi's power management
3. lower wifi transmit power.

The other stuff I'm doing is just experiementing, trying a range of ideas.
I haven't been testing consistently enough to know how effective each mod has been though I do collect the data - logging sensor output every 30 seconds.

btw, is there a way to get more accurate temperature data?

The data I see from 'sensors' has a resolution of just 1.0C.

Shows changes I've made inside the case.
http://www.jesseo.com/kites/x61s-palmrest-internal.jpg (168 KB)

Shows 2mm drill holes in bottom of machine. There are 56 holes.
http://www.jesseo.com/kites/x61s-bottom-drilled.jpg (40 KB)

Shows 4mm holes drilled into palm rest. There are about 20 holes visible and an few more which are covered by the keyboard.
http://www.jesseo.com/kites/x61s-palmrest-drilled.jpg (60 KB)

next to try:
- use usb drive or cf and remove hdd
- replace wifi with pcmcia or usb wifi
- add boundry layer / spacer between copper heat shield and palm rest

[xsixt]

Wow, interesting pics, thanks! I will have to come back and study this when I have a bit more time.

It would be great if you take pictures of the modifications you've made.

The main way to lower temperature on these machines was uncovered on this forum years ago:
1. replace the wifi card with a half-sized card,
2. turn on wifi's power management
3. lower wifi transmit power.

Done, done and done. This mod is a tad over-hyped on this forum. Yes it does knock off maybe 5 degrees C (?), but the machine is still uncomfortably warm after this mod.

IMO, someone also needs to document which FRU part palmrest/shielding works the best. My palmrest has aluminium shielding. My guess is the one with copper shielding would be a lot better.

[jaspen-meyer]

IMO, someone also needs to document which FRU part palmrest/shielding works the best. My palmrest has aluminium shielding. My guess is the one with copper shielding would be a lot better.

I went through a stack of x61s and x60 palm rests and one of them, the x60 FRU 39T7304, included a layer of copper which extended to cover the entire area under my right palm (when typing).
I removed the copper. It was connected with three strips of double sided adhesive tape.
The copper weighed 22.3 grams. After adding new double sided tape, I stuck the copper over the existing
heat sheild.

My initial thought, I haven't made controlled temperature measurements yet, is it's a minor improvement but further modifications are needed.
It adds a layer of copper between the heat source and my palm.
But, it transfers the heat to the palm rest.
It seems this could be improved if a layer of thermally non-conductive material were added either between the copper and the palm rest or between my palm and the palmrest.

Fiberglass tape, ceramic, carbon fibre, paper (!) ...are possible non-thermally conductive materials to try.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... uctivities

Also I stuck a thermal pad to the south bridge, an idea I got from RealBlackStuff.

[jaspen-meyer]

Am trying various covers for the right palm rest.
Materials I'm testing: manilla envelope with layer of bubble wrap, 2mm cardboard, 5 sheets of paper (total 0.5mm), paper with a thin layer of leather atop it, paper with layer of carbon fiber atop it. The material is taped to the right side of the palm rest and held in place with simple clear (SCOTCH) tape.

Initial try is cardboard. Am using a pencil to mark the cardboard in places which I need to trim.
While it's noticably cooler the feeling of cardboard on the palm is distracting.

Combining cardboard and leather gave a thickness of about 4mm and that was too high.
Typing was uncomfortable. Also, the lid doesn't close.

[jaspen-meyer]

After a week of testing I've found insulating the exterior of the palm rest with 5 layers of paper and a 2mm piece of leather atop the paper is a major improvement.

[Pokrzept]

And how does it affect bottoms cover and bridge temperatures? All that heat has to be dissipated somewhere, it didn't gone to vacation

[jaspen-meyer]

I don't know where the heat goes, but I can now use the machine without discomfort.

Temp4 is up from 41C to 46C after the change.
Temp 3 is 42C.

[Pokrzept]

Good to hear that. My x61s also had same issues with an thermal radiation, but since I removed WLAN, WWAN and Modem cards it is no longer a problem. I could even say that with an extra source of heat - I did replaced 120 GB SSD with an HGST 7K1000 HDD - the left side of the laptop (both top and the bottom) is warmer than right side. ATM it run on W10 with an tpfc installed and fan disabled for most of the time sensors report 60-65 degrees for CPU/GPU, and 40-45 degrees for CRD/APS/no5 which is pretty good score imho.

[jaspen-meyer]

What bios are you using?

[Pokrzept]

Middleton as far as I remember - BIOS ver. 2.22 with EC ver. 1.03. What suprisses me this unit has an second fan next to modem slot but for last 2 years I own it I have never heard it kicking of, not even once. What's more both connector and fan seems to be working fine - when I tried to remove it BIOS reported Fan error. Anyone can explain me this? On my other x61s (Reserve Edition) this little fan goes frenzy and can be heard in the other room

[jaspen-meyer]

'cool and quiet' is subjective unless there is sufficient data.
I log the output of '~$ sensors' every 30 seconds with this script:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/bash
log="~/temperature.log"
while sleep 60;do
date +%s >> $log
sensors >> $log
done

And then tally average temperatures with this:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/bash
a=`grep temp1 temperature.log|grep crit |cut -b4-17|sed -e 's/.*+//' -e 's/\..*//'|paste -sd+ - | bc`;
b=`grep temp1 temperature.log|grep -c crit`;
c=`echo "scale=2;$a / $b"|bc -l`
echo "temp1 = $c C";

a=`grep temp2 temperature.log|grep crit |cut -b4-17|sed -e 's/.*+//' -e 's/\..*//'|paste -sd+ - | bc`;
b=`grep temp2 temperature.log|grep -c crit`;
c=`echo "scale=2;$a / $b"|bc -l`
echo "temp2 = $c C"

a=`grep temp3 temperature.log|cut -b4-17|sed -e 's/.*+//' -e 's/\..*//     '|paste -sd+ - | bc`;
b=`grep temp3 -c temperature.log`;
c=`echo "scale=2;$a / $b"|bc -l`
echo "temp3 = $c C"

a=`grep temp4 temperature.log |cut -b4-17|sed -e 's/.*+//' -e 's/\..*//    '|paste -sd+ - | bc`;
b=`grep temp4 -c temperature.log`;
c=`echo "scale=2;$a / $b"|bc -l`
echo "temp4 = $c C"

My L7500 is throttled to 1.2 GHz, has a piece of leather over the right palm rest, Atheros AR93xx wifi with txpower = 1mW and power management on, powertop --auto-tune.
Date measured over 3 weeks:

temp1 = 50.47 C
temp2 = 52.01 C
temp3 = 42.10 C
temp4 = 46.49 C

[gdrunk]

Have you considered undervolting?

I bought a X60 recently with a 1.83GHz Yonah Core 2, and have had issues with it running hot as well. Anything which used both cores almost immediately resulted in CPU throttling at near 100 degrees.

I likewise replaced the thermal paste and tossed the old heat pad - the results weren't spectacular.

My processor responded very well to undervolting. Idle temperature is more or less unchanged (around 45-55 degrees) but even using a CPU benchmark it only slowly creeps up to around 80 degrees. There is a good tutorial for Arch Linux here.

Also, in my case, enabling power management for the 3945ABG reduces the palmrest temperature from uncomfortably hot to warm.

[jaspen-meyer]

Here is a picture of my palm rest:
http://www.jesseo.com/thinkpads/x61s-leather.jpg (128 KB)

Can the x60s be undervolted further?

[axur-delmeria]

Can the x60s be undervolted further?

If you mean the CPU, probably yes.

[gdrunk]

From what I understand of undervolting, you cannot reduce the base voltage of the processor (the voltage at the lowest supported CPU speed), but the higher voltages at higher clock speeds can be reduced, in some cases right down to the base voltage.

I believe this is as true for LV processors as it is for others.

[xiphmont]

From what I understand of undervolting, you cannot reduce the base voltage of the processor (the voltage at the lowest supported CPU speed), but the higher voltages at higher clock speeds can be reduced, in some cases right down to the base voltage.

True in software. You can mod the VRM to reduce min voltage by reducing all voltages.