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x series classic: The Last Great Thinkpad

X200/X201/X220 (including equivalent tablet models) and X300/X301 Series
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TreyRust
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Re: x series classic: The Last Great Thinkpad

#31 Post by TreyRust » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:32 am

pianowizard wrote:I actually hope this will happen, because it will force you guys to finally learn to use the touchpad and realize it's not that bad. I have been using both trackpoint and touchpad frequently for over a decade and the touchpad is far better in both speed and precision. For the trackpoint, precision is acceptable only if I slow down the pointer a couple notches below Windows' default speed setting, but then it moves way too slow. Even if I take into account the time needed to move my hand from the keyboard to the touchpad or to an external mouse, both of these inputs still beat the trackpoint in terms of speed.
You shouldn't tell people that use computers differently than you what they should use, based on your own opinion.

The first thing I do when I install an operating system on a Thinkpad is to crank dat pointer sensitivity up as high as I can get it. I can see why you'd feel it's imprecise when you first do that, but if you give it time you may very well get used to it. I certainly did and it feels far more precise to me than a touchpad ever has. Granted, a slow Trackpoint is physically straining.

I'm on my X200 right now, with a 23" monitor plugged in. I've got a laser mouse and a mechanical keyboard.
I just reached over to my Trackpoint to compare it's precision to my mouse and was actually surprised to find that...

... I've got better per-pixel control over the cursor with my Trackpoint than my laser mouse, on my 23" 1920x1080 display no less; Because of the friction between the mouse and the mouse pad, there's a little jump whenever you make a sharp turn. A problem trackpads have too, because your finger minutely sticks to it when you slow down. By comparison, the Trackpoint is friction free so you've got precision without having to speed up, even with the speed maxed out; Which doesn't make a whole lot of difference, but you're the one saying that the Trackpoint is imprecise at high speeds.

So, with my anecdotal evidence I'd say that your problem is your own inability/unwillingness to get used to it, and not it's inherent lack of precision; Feel free to correct me.

Otherwise, a touchpad just wouldn't work for me. When I use the built in input devices on a laptop, it's because I'm slouching back on the couch or propped up in bed. What drives me crazy with touchpads is that my hand has to hang off the edge of the machine, but if the edge is right up against my stomach, and my arm has to wrap around, gouching my stomach with my wrist, straining my shoulder, hand and fingers, it's physically painful so I use a mouse...

... A mouse works great on a desk, but it's tormenting for me trying to find it in the covers whenever I need it or get it to track on a couch; And it slides around on uneven surfaces -NOT FUN-. Not to mention all those peripherals you have to carry around... I'm glad to be down to just headphones thank you very much!

The Trackpoint, on the other-hand... Well, I've used it exclusively in bed for hours a day for weeks at a time with no complaints.

I'm sure I could get used to a trackpad if I used my laptop on a desk or hanging off the end of my lap while sitting up-right; But if I'm using the energy to sit-up in a chair, I'll take a full on desktop, with triple monitors, a mechanical keyboard and laser mouse, thank you kindly...

Bearing in mind I've used Apple's glass trackpad, albeit the first generation. Not sure if it still pivots from the top but that was really annoying and whenever I was forbidden to click by the cursor Gods, I reached for the laggy bluetooth mouse. You could say it's not a big deal once you get used to not being able to click anywhere, but you're missing the point, it's just bad design to have that arbitrary limit. I am aware of the fact that you can use your thumb at the bottom, it's still annoying for _me_.

For me personally, it's just not worth owning a laptop if I can't have a trackpoint. I acknowledge the existence of and envy anyone who doesn't share that feeling. I truly wish I felt the same. It's hard to describe how much I actually WANT to like trackpads, just imagine all the computer options I'd have! But they can't equal the Trackpoint for me because of their physical location and how I use my computer 90% of the time.
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Re: x series classic: The Last Great Thinkpad

#32 Post by pianowizard » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:56 am

TreyRust wrote:You shouldn't tell people that use computers differently than you what they should use, based on your own opinion...So, with my anecdotal evidence I'd say that your problem is your own inability/unwillingness to get used to it, and not it's inherent lack of precision; Feel free to correct me
There are two things that I should tell you. First, ever since I bought my first laptop in 2002, I was exposed to both trackpoints and touchpads (because this laptop, a Dell Inspiron 8200, had both inputs) but I mastered the former first, and so during my first two years as a laptop owner, I used trackpoints almost exclusively. But eventually, I learned how to use the touchpad properly and realized it's faster and more precise, so I gradually used it more often. Thus, I switched from trackpoints to touchpads while I was still a trackpoint pro. However, since then, I have continued to use trackpoints as well (e.g. the X31 that I am using at work doesn't have a touchpad), so it's not like I have completely forgotten how to use them. The second thing you should know is, at one point I also liked to use my Thinkpads while in bed or in a couch, and for this particular situation, I too found the trackpoint more convenient than the touchpad.

From the above experience, I can see why some people prefer trackpoints over touchpads, since it takes a lot of work to learn to use touchpads well enough that one would prefer them over trackpoints -- again, it took me a couple years. It doesn't bother me at all that some people's preferences differ from mine. What bothers me is that some trackpoint fans on this forum repeatedly bash not only touchpads but also touchpad users, calling us novices, though you probably haven't used this forum enough to know. But if someday all laptops only have touchpads, then these people will be forced to learn to use them, which may finally get them to shut up about how inferior the touchpad is.
TreyRust wrote:It's hard to describe how much I actually WANT to like trackpads, just imagine all the computer options I'd have!
You are certainly not alone on this forum. Many forum members are sticking with Thinkpads *only* because of the trackpoint. They are suffering Thinkpads' terrible new keyboard layout, lousy screens, decline in build quality and decline in customer support simply because they can't wean themselves off trackpoints. I pity them.
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Re: x series classic: The Last Great Thinkpad

#33 Post by Summilux » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:33 pm

pianowizard wrote: I can see why some people prefer trackpoints over touchpads, since it takes a lot of work to learn to use touchpads well enough that one would prefer them over trackpoints -- again, it took me a couple years.
Oh. I'm very surprised to read that. Most of the time people point out the steep learning curve of trackpoints, not touchpads.
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Re: x series classic: The Last Great Thinkpad

#34 Post by Medessec » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:36 pm

Well, it kinda depends on the person as well... I kinda grew up using old laptops, so I used the Touchpad more often than the traditional ball or optical mouse. And then when I started working on Thinkpads, I took to the Trackpoint very well. I could use it and have no bother with it for web browsing and navigating Windows, and I also got used to gaming with it as well.

I can use pretty much all interface devices very well, because I've used them all equally. It's always a bit shaky for me to go straight from a trackpoint to a mouse, but I can easily get around it and use the device proficiently.
Trying my hardest to collect Thinkpads, but college and being broke kinda gets in the way. However...
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Re: x series classic: The Last Great Thinkpad

#35 Post by Cigarguy » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:12 pm

Trackpoint or touchpad, does it really matter. Use whatever and however you feel most comfortable with. Why is Lenovo leaning towards eliminating the trackpoint? Are trackpoints that much more difficult and expensive to produce and manufacturer? It's not like they are blazing a new path here? Why would they want to remove a distinctive feature of a famous beloved brand? Do they really want to be just like everyone else?

The Thinkpad brand was always a higher end luxury brand. Are they so desperate to turn a Porsche into a Beetle be removing distinctive features one by one? Is it their wish for us to be like pianowizard who's TPF signature do not include a single Thinkpad?

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Re: x series classic: The Last Great Thinkpad

#36 Post by ajkula66 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:38 pm

Cigarguy wrote: Why is Lenovo leaning towards eliminating the trackpoint?
In case you haven't noticed, Macs don't have a trackpoint, so it must be redundant... :twisted:
The Thinkpad brand was always a higher end luxury brand.
The same held true for Jaguar until Ford laid their hands on the deed of Coventry plant...
like pianowizard who's TPF signature do not include a single Thinkpad?
Hmmm...pianowizard has built some of the most interesting custom ThinkPads that this forum has ever seen. While I don't see eye-to-eye with him on everything, the fact that he of all people has ditched ThinkPads is a sign of times as far as I'm concerned...
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Re: x series classic: The Last Great Thinkpad

#37 Post by codek » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:14 am

ajkula66 wrote: In case you haven't noticed, Macs don't have a trackpoint, so it must be redundant... :twisted:
If thinkpad loses the trackpoint, they will lose a significant amount of their customer base. I hate the trackpad and that's all that's left of the thinkpads. We already endure the worst displays, poor build quality of the thinkpads and now the keyboard is gone. If trackpoint goes, I will have no reason to stay. Why get rid of the trackpoint, it doesn't prohibit anything?

Does anyone else have a good trackpoint. Dell's trackpoint has been subpar and they always break on me.
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Re: x series classic: The Last Great Thinkpad

#38 Post by Medessec » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:30 pm

My friend recently sent me an article on the new T431. I do understand the T431 is supposed to be the more mobile of the workstation Thinkpads... but my immediate first impression was that it looked like a older Aluminum MacBook painted and dressed as a Thinkpad. I do like the new clickers, and turning the logo around on the back. Looks like they kept the trackpoint on that- but everything else I'm not sure about.
Trying my hardest to collect Thinkpads, but college and being broke kinda gets in the way. However...
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Re: x series classic: The Last Great Thinkpad

#39 Post by dr_st » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:56 am

Medessec wrote: but my immediate first impression was that it looked like a older Aluminum MacBook painted and dressed as a Thinkpad.
That's how most of the laptops these days are. Stupid macbook clones. There are the trend-setters and the sheep (trend-followers). Unfortunately today it seems there is only one trend-setter (Apple) and the rest are followers.

Some OEMs like DELL and HP at least seem to try to keep part of the copy-cat looks away from their business series. Lenovo decided to let them into the Thinkpad line as well.
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Re: x series classic: The Last Great Thinkpad

#40 Post by TreyRust » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:58 pm

pianowizard wrote: There are two things that I should tell you. First, ever since I bought my first laptop in 2002, I was exposed to both trackpoints and touchpads (because this laptop, a Dell Inspiron 8200, had both inputs) but I mastered the former first, and so during my first two years as a laptop owner, I used trackpoints almost exclusively. But eventually, I learned how to use the touchpad properly and realized it's faster and more precise, so I gradually used it more often. Thus, I switched from trackpoints to touchpads while I was still a trackpoint pro. However, since then, I have continued to use trackpoints as well (e.g. the X31 that I am using at work doesn't have a touchpad), so it's not like I have completely forgotten how to use them. The second thing you should know is, at one point I also liked to use my Thinkpads while in bed or in a couch, and for this particular situation, I too found the trackpoint more convenient than the touchpad.

From the above experience, I can see why some people prefer trackpoints over touchpads, since it takes a lot of work to learn to use touchpads well enough that one would prefer them over trackpoints -- again, it took me a couple years. It doesn't bother me at all that some people's preferences differ from mine. What bothers me is that some trackpoint fans on this forum repeatedly bash not only touchpads but also touchpad users, calling us novices, though you probably haven't used this forum enough to know. But if someday all laptops only have touchpads, then these people will be forced to learn to use them, which may finally get them to shut up about how inferior the touchpad is.
You said that for the trackpoint to be precise, the speed has to be low. That is something I don't believe, no matter how fast it is, it's still per-pixel precision for me in my usage.

Do you find trackpads to be better in bed or on the couch now after spending time with them or do you just not do that anymore?

I'm not sure I believe that everyone would prefer the 'pad to the 'point, even after having used them for years, however. Even if a significant number of people could.
pianowizard wrote: You are certainly not alone on this forum. Many forum members are sticking with Thinkpads *only* because of the trackpoint. They are suffering Thinkpads' terrible new keyboard layout, lousy screens, decline in build quality and decline in customer support simply because they can't wean themselves off trackpoints. I pity them.
After reading this post last week, I decided to look into other laptops.

Frankly, I'm dissapointed.

I thought that the trackpoint was tying me to a dying laptop series, but I don't think that anymore. I couldn't find any ultraportables that have the same combination of ease of dissasembly, upgradability, expandibility and portability besides the X series. For me, if I can't have a 12" ultraportable, I don't want a laptop at all, it just isn't worth it. But there aren't many laptops in this range, the X series still being the most attractive all around computers.

My requirements would be the following:
1) High end CPU/Chipset. I realize that I've taken Intel VT-d for granted for a while now, because as far as I can tell, it's a recent addition to most computers, unlike the X series.

2) 12" screen, preferably 16:10. I could go for a 13" if the bezel was razor thin, but otherwise it would just take up too much space.

3) Ultrabooks are cool and all, but I'd prefer a few more USB ports. I could live with this if they met the first requirement though.

4) Upgradable and easy to take apart for dusting and oiling the fan. Just because macs are pretty, doesn't mean they don't get dust inside.

The X series is the only line that I could find that currently meets all requirements. If they remove the trackpoint, big deal, I would still probably buy them if they meet the above and I HAVE TO upgrade from my x200. That being said, I'm fine with my X200 right now. I don't like how the X220 or X230 look; I still prefer the lights right below the screen, the "speed stripes", the trackpoint only design, the 16:10 display and the charging port on the side. If I had to upgrade, I'd get an X201 motherboard and still enjoy my Samsung PVA display; But I don't see myself even doing that any time soon because this computer is still just fine.
Thinkpad X20: Cracked screen, was my first.
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