Linux distro for legacy units. 600, 770 and T23

[Norway Pad]

Hello all

I scrolled back a bit but couldn't find any recent posts on this subject, so I start a new thread.

After XP EOL last april, I realized that I am left with some pretty nice units that no longer has any decent Microsoft OS to run. One of my T30 laptops has been running Linux Mint for years, and is doing fine there, but I have some older units too that might need a little more lightweight distros. I assume that also the T23 can do well with Linux Mint, even though it's a bit weaker than the T30.

So the two Thinkpads in question are my 600 and 770Z units. The 600 has a PII 266Mhz CPU and 192MB RAM. I can easily add another 128MB RAM, and the CPU can be upgraded to a 366MHz one, even though I prefer to not do the CPU upgrade. The 770 is upgraded to a PIII CPU and has maxed out RAM, but I don't remember the exact specs on it without booting it up. I have tried Linux Mint Isadora on the 600, and it worked, but CPU usage was between 80 and 100% all the time, and 100MB RAM was already in use as soon as it is booted up. So I believe any distro needs to be a little more lightweight than that.

My requirements for a distro is that it supports a PCMCIA Wireless card, has a web browser from where I can access gmail, and has a word editor that can create .doc text documents. That is all I need. My main use will be to type text for work documents, and then email the files to my work email. I would like it to have some kind of simple GUI, but I could learn to live with a command line based environment too.

So any suggestions on a suitable Distro, and maybe filled in with some others' experiences on an Linux distro that works acceptably on these older Thinkpads is very welcome. I am also working with a Slackware 10.0 project for the 701C, but no progress has been made there yet.

Thank you for any input!

[Neil]

AntiX would probably be the best light weight, yet full featured distro. LinuxBBQ also has some very light versions if your interested in rolling with Sid. Another option would be a Debian net install, then add a light Window Manager like JWM or IceWM, and only the other stuff you need.

[Norway Pad]

Thanks! I also got another recommendation for Antix, so that's a strong candidate. The good thing is that installing an OS just for testing really isn't that much work as I am used to from the Microsoft world. I was told that even AntiX is running a PII CPU pretty hard, and takes some RAM, but I guess that's what you get when you run legacy hardware. I assume it's anyway more lightweight than Mint.

LinuxBBQ also has some very light versions if your interested in rolling with Sid. Another option would be a Debian net install, then add a light Window Manager like JWM or IceWM, and only the other stuff you need.

I could probably configure something, like you suggest, but with my limited knowledge of specialized Linux operations, that would take quite some time. If you have the time and urge, feel free to elaborate a little more on these suggestions, as I am not familiar with these expressions.

[Neil]

Well, let's see...

Some of the LinuxBBQ offerings are CLI (command line interface) only, and thus very, very light on resources. Others have a window manager pre-configured, and others have a complete desktop environment installed. Progressing from very light on resources (CLI) to a little more hungry (window manager only) to more like Mint (full DE).

Sid is the Debian code name for their unstable branch. Unstable in the since that it is constantly changing with package updates coming out every day. Not in the since that is will topple over and die on you.

The Debian net install will install just the basic Linux kernel and a few CLI Debian tools, then you will install whatever else you want via the internet (thus the "net"). The Ceni CLI network manager is included, so you can usually get online with an ethernet cable, while wifi probably won't be a good idea for a net install.

Not much elaboration, I know, but that is about the extent of my knowledge on the subject. I guess a little on-line research would go a long way toward helping you decide.

BTW, I'm running AntiX on my X40 and it uses about 75-80MB RAM at idle, so doesn't need much in the way of resources to operate. It's when you open a web browser that RAM starts to be gobbled up. With six or seven tabs open the other day my RAM usage was up near 500MB.

[Norway Pad]

Oh, this was most helpful. It was some basic knowledge that lacked on my part. But that is present now, and I can go out and search further on my own.

It seems like AntiX might be the best choice for now, then I have to set my self a goal of experimenting with the other distros later as I gain some knowledge and experience. And my 701C Slackware project will also give me some useful input. The 600 has no ethernet or wireless built in btw, only through PCMCIA cards, so Debian net might be out of the question. But we'll see, thank you so far!

[brchan]

If you want gpu hardware acceleration, you may have to stick to older distributions, since the newer linux distros come with newer xorg drivers that dropped acceleration for such old graphics cards, or use the Xvesa graphics driver (though performance will still be sub par). As a result, even moving windows or scrolling up and down pages will be laggy.

For the T23:
I recommend crunchbang linux, if you want newer packages and a large variety of apps to choose from, but also good performance. System idles at around 70mb ram, and flash video works well (360p at standard window size). If you want even more performance, wary puppy 5.5 is even lighter, but you won't have the latest applications. Newer puppy linux distros tend not to run well on this machine.

For the 600 and 770:
Probably Wary puppy as well, or some stripped down variations. There is also tiny core linux, which has a 72mb iso that includes wifi, but is not for novices, since it requires a lot of set up.

[Norway Pad]

Thanks again. That was some other recommendations there. Downloading the mentioned Wary Puppy 5.5 now, so we'll see what that brings. I guess Crunchbang would be a candidate for the T23. That machine is the one with with the best hardware resources of those 3 units, so that's where it would make sense to put the distro with the best possibilities.

How do you rate Linux Mint as opposed to Crunchbang? Pros/Cons? Just curious how other distros are seen as compared to the one I currently use. I was once told that Mint was the best option if I was used to Windows, and I have always found it to be easy to use. But on the older units I probably can't count on always have nice windows and menus, so better get some experience with the specialized stuff too.

[brchan]

Linux Mint is a great distribution with great app support, UI, usability, user friendly, and relatively good speed (especially compared to Ubuntu). However, it tends to perform well only on computers from 2006 and newer. Compared to Crunchbang Linux, it is much more resource heavy because of the desktop environment and extra services. Also, the newer versions will install, but immediately freeze with graphics corruption at login on the T23 (I have tested many distros on my T23).

IMO, a T23 with 1gb ram, 1.13ghz cpu, and 5400rpm HDD running wary puppy 5.5 is very usable for basic to medium web browsing, flash video, word processing, and email. It is actually my daily driver I use at college, but I do switch to the T61 when I need a bit more power.

[ilakast]

For the 770Z of yours:

I have tried Precise Puppy 5.7.1 (only the retro edition has the audio drivers!) on my 770X and can't get sound to work. Everything else works great,so if you don't plan listening to music, it works fine for writing documents and browsing the web.

Edit: stupid me, I had quick boot enabled in BIOS. Make sure to disable it before installing any Linux distro on 600E/770X/Z as this is well documented already, but I failed to double check it first.

[Norway Pad]

I had quick boot enabled in BIOS. Make sure to disable it before installing any Linux distro on 600E/770X/Z as this is well documented already, but I failed to double check it first.

That was news to me, so you saved me there. Thanks for that input. What might be the reason for this, by the way? No big deal, just curious. And is Precise Puppy some variation of Wary Puppy, or is it something totally different. Excuse me for my total lack of knowledge in this area.

Anyway, Project IBM 600 LinuxPad is at an standstill, as I haven't gotten my 7200 HDD from China yet. AntiX and Wary Puppy is on CDs, ready to go.

[Neil]

Wary is kind of the version of Precise Puppy for older hardware. Have a look at this Puppy Linux version list:

http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PuppyVersionIndex

As for the quick boot question ThinkWiki says; "Ensure that "ThinkPad Simple Boot", AKA "Quick Boot" is DISABLED. If you do not do this, the PNP BIOS may not appropriately set the resources for the CS4232, and you'll always get a Device Busy or not found error when you modprobe the driver no matter what settings you give."

[rust collector]

Hello, and..umm...

I have used antix quite a bit, and it is hard to beat, for a simple to setup install, with low resource use.

Just as an example, this is a little install I did on my old acer butt-spire netbook.
Antix 13.5alpha2, removed jwm, iceape, and a few other things, installed dwm, dillo, and xchat (this version of antix is not very official, but it is there, and it works, with some tweaks)

Now, I am not sure how accurate it is to set the ram available in grub, but here it is at 128mb, iIrc.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii31 ... g~original

Using 36mb, with xorg, dwm, xchat, dillo(a simple browser) and 2 urxvt terminals.

I think you could make it work on your machines too, maybe set up a swap area, before installing, and use the commandline installer?
Good luck with whatever you do.

Oh, and if you are setting up slackware, you probably know more than me, but I will try to help with the little I know, if you need it.

[Dekks]

I used Bodhi Linux on AC with a Compaq Armada M300 P2 333Mhz fromcirca 2000 that was usable with exception of browsing modern sites that bogged it down. Used it to write reports in Emacs & Libre Office with minimall trouble.

[Norway Pad]

The status is now that Antix is installed on the Thinkpad 600, and the installation itself worked just fine. The memory usage is no problem, as I took the RAM up to 416MB, but it seems to hit 100% CPU quite often. Despite of that, the whole thing seems amazingly usable. But there are some issues:

USB: When I insert a USB stick, the stick lights up and is listed with its name in the list over physical drives, along with the HDD and CD-ROM. But it is not listed as a USB device, and it's files can't be found anywhere in the file system. Solved!: I had to manually mount it to a folder. mount \dev\sdb1 \folder. That wasn't done automatically as I am used to from other distros..

Audio: Totally dead.

PCMCIA: The Cardbus wireless card I use with the T23 doesn't even light up in the 600. I have to see if there is any hardware incompatibility here, but I think I remember that newer Cardbus cards can't even be plugged into the older 16bit / 5 volt PCMCIA slots. So not quite sure what can be wrong.

I will look at it this weekend. If anyone here have any suggestions, I am thankful. I might even start a new thread about it if I can't solve these issues, but I would like to try Wary Puppy first, and see if it's the same there.

[Norway Pad]

Ok, after input from a member, I run the command dmesg | less;

The new lines that appears after inserting the CardBus card are: (I haven't included the bracket/number [xxxx.xxxxxx]at the beginning of each line. Are they needed?)

pcmcia_socket pcmcia_socket1: pccard: CardBus card inserted into slot 1
pci 0000:05:00.0: [11ab:1faa] type 00 class 0x020000
pci 0000:05:00.0: reg 10: [mem 0xd0000000-0xd000ffff]
pci 0000:05:00.0: reg 14: [mem 0xd0000000-0xd000ffff]
pci 0000:05:00.0: BAR 0: assigned [mem 0x2c000000-0x2c00ffff]
pci 0000:05:00.0: BAR 1: assigned [mem 0x2c010000-0x2c01ffff]

For the audio, I have found that this is a common problem, and it seems like something called Alsamixer has fixed it for many people. I will look into how that can be implemented.

[Norway Pad]

And there we are. I am now typing from the 600, on a wireless connection. A quick post, as typing is a little on the slow side here. Thanks to user Automobus, this now works. The fix was really easy, just a quick setup using the tool wicd-curses, and enter the name of the wireless interface. But when you are not aware of it, it's not that easy..

So thanks once again. The audio issue still isn't resolved, but there is a lot of info around lack of audio in Linux, and I have also gotten some advice on PM.

Happy Thinkpadding!

[Saucey]

I just got done installing CrunchBang on the 770X I have.
I had to install it on the T30 I have, nothing would work with its PII 300MHz CPU and heavily lacking 164MB (I think?) Ram.
Initially it wouldn't boot, kept on recycling saying all this stuff.
I got rid of the cool capture card (I think, I forgot what it did) and a few restarts, bam! a login screen.

I don't mind how long it takes, I think about 4 minutes top to get the desktop loaded correctly.
Typing on it makes the CPU run to 100%, there is a .5 to 1 second delay in the characters, saving the 100 word page took 6 seconds.
I've yet to find my WiFi card, but I think I'm better using Ethernet before I do so.
As far as performance goes, I don't think I'll do much, maybe die on a Wikipedia page.

I ordered a 600X from eBay recently, I'll see if I can make anything out of it with the Zorin OS that is preloaded on there.
If not, crunchbang will be tested again, maybe XPud... I feel it could handle internet better than the 770X, but WiFi is another thing.

Best of luck to ya Norway Pad!

[Norway Pad]

I just got done installing CrunchBang on the 770X I have.
I had to install it on the T30 I have, nothing would work with its PII 300MHz CPU and heavily lacking 164MB (I think?) Ram.

I don't mind how long it takes, I think about 4 minutes top to get the desktop loaded correctly.
Typing on it makes the CPU run to 100%, there is a .5 to 1 second delay in the characters, saving the 100 word page took 6 seconds.

Best of luck to ya Norway Pad!

Thanks, good it worked out for you too.

I assume the mentioning of a T30 is a typo, and that you are referring to a 770X all the way? Its specs seem pretty similar to my 600. It has a PII 266MHz CPU, but far more RAM, though. Anyway, my experience with Antix seems to be a bit more "speedy" than your experience with CrunchBang. Surfing this forum was a little slow, but it didn't kill the laptop. Everything else, typing and saving, worked very well. Have you tried Antix?

Based on the good experience with the 600, except from the non-working audio, I will try Antix on the 770Z too. But my Z has a PIII CPU, and used to run XP SP2 fine, so I think that will run Antix really well. I will probably reserve the more advanced distros for the T23. CrunchBang or Wary / Precise Puppy, as suggested above, will be strong candidates there.

[Saucey]

I assume the mentioning of a T30 is a typo, and that you are referring to a 770X all the way?

No, what I meant to stay is that I installed CrunchBang on a T30, took that hard drive, put it in a 770 caddy, then tossed it in the 770X to hope the best.
It wouldn't boot and would post errors while doing so, until I took out the video adapter.

I will try AntiX next for the 770, the latency for text input is laughable, almost like an early netbook with Vista installed.

[Temetka]

A .5 second delay in between characters is unacceptable. I know there are CPU upgrades for the 770X and IIRC they used the MMC-2 moddules. That being said, I wouldn't invest a dime in that machine. Slap Windows 98 on there and enjoy some retro gaming.

A 600X would be a far better machine to attempt to navigate the modern web on. I think the max CPU tops out at 800MHz or somewhere right around there. That's fast enough to get you online. That being said youtube would be out of the question. I honestly don't know what I would do if I had a machine that old. Probably either not use it at all (I am very busy), or install Windows 98 and play some older games.

[Norway Pad]

Oh, ok. Now I see what you tried to explain. I had no idea that would work, maybe that's the reason why it is so slow? Windows usually gives a bluecsreen when you do this, unless it's very similar models. I would think Linux is more adoptable than Windows, but something doesn't sound right with the delays you're experiencing. I can even surf this forum acceptably with a 266MHz CPU, so I see no reason the 770X should do worse, unless CrunchBang is very much more resource demanding.

I think the MMC-2 modules max out at 400MHz, that's the same as used in the 600. The 600X is a step further, and can be upgraded to a 800(?)MHz PIII, same as what was done to my 770Z. So I look forward to trying Linux there.

And for the record, so we're not trying to fool anyone: Retrocomputing has it's severe limitations. I am probably more patient with this than most others, so I enjoy sitting down doing some low key work, typing, reading etc, on an older laptop. And even spend time and money upgrading the hardware. There are no real logical reasons to do this, but that's what a hobby is for, isn't it?

[Sudevan]

Just my 2c worth: I have a 600 and a 600E running Crunchbang Linux. They are 2645-4AU and 2645-51U machines with Pentium II processsors and 256 and 288 Megabytes of RAM respectively. I have experienced hardly any delays in typing response, and only small, very tolerable delays in webpage loading when I'm on the net. I use one of the standard USB/Ethernet dongles to create a wired connection through my router. Crunchbang also has its own browser, called Iceweasel, which is decent enough for ordinary surfing. My other 600s have some version of Windows (95, 98SE, ME, even XP). I also run Zorin Lite 5.6 and Crunchbang on my T23s, and they are fine too. With Zorin I can get tolerable performance on Youtube videos, with only occasional stutter. I settled on Crunchbang after reading good reports here on the Forum, and also experimenting with a variety of Linux distros.

These aren't legacy, but on my T4x and T6x machines, I have Mint 16 or 17, and I absolutely love them. For a machine that can run Mint, it is as close to a perfect OS as any I have found, whether Linux or Windows. It's smooth, trouble free, and creates no problems with updates, unlike Ubuntu 12.04 which gives me update problems from time to time.

A bit late, but good luck in your OS implementations, Norway Pad. What did you settle on?

Sudevan

[Norway Pad]

Hi

Thanks for the specific suggestions here. I settled for Antix on the 600, and this has worked really well. A lot of 100% CPU when opening stuff, but never any bothering delays for anything. Since the 600 is a compact little unit, and has a good battery, I even brought it along one time I traveled. Antix uses the Iceweasel bowser too, a great tool. The focus changed a little last week, as I bought a 560Z. That will get Antix too, but I'm a little worried about the RAM there. The 560Z apparently maxes out at 192MB, which can appear as a bit weak even for Antix.

The T23 will be next, as that will be my retrocomputing Linux tool for when I need a little more power than the 600 can give. I have settled for Crunchbang there, just to try that too. And depending on my luck with that, I'll see which way I'll go with the 770Z. No hurry with that one, though. It's a mint collectible, so it's hardly used at all.

Btw, nice to hear about other users using the old Thinkpads too. They can never replace a modern unit for critical tasks, but approximately 1/3 of my computing tasks (Typing and light browsing) can actually be done on a 266MHz / 416MB RAM base.

[Sudevan]

Hullo, I'm glad you settled on a solution -- if I remember correctly, Antix seemed to be more of a command-line OS rather than one with any sort of User Interface -- or am I wrong? It was a while ago that I checked it out. If it works for you on the 600, then that's splendid.

Interesting that you mention picking up a 560Z. About a month ago, I picked up a 570, which came with Win ME. I haven't played around with it as much, but it is one of those unusual early Thinkpads, with a keyboard that lifts up a little when you open it -- not sure what the purpose is, unless it is to provide a bit of tilt. It was in pretty good nick (as you know, it's not easy to find the legacy machines in good, or even decent cosmetic shape). I think I should be able to put Crunchbang on it. It does have a CD/DVD drive, but I need to change the CMOS battery first. I'll keep my eye out for a 770Z, it sounds very interesting.

I do love retrocomputing -- I used to call it antique or appropriate computing before I saw you use the term retrocomputing It's very satisfying to rehab an old machine and, if one can get it to go on the internet, that's even better!

Sudevan

[Neil]

Hullo, I'm glad you settled on a solution -- if I remember correctly, Antix seemed to be more of a command-line OS rather than one with any sort of User Interface -- or am I wrong?

don't know if AntiX was ever CLI only (doubt it), but it's certainly not now. Default system uses IceWM with Fluxbox as an alternative, and either one offers a nice desktop.

Or...you might be thinking of AntiX "core", which is an iso with just the basic system without Xorg or a window manager, that the user can use to build up the system he/she wants.

[Norway Pad]

The Antix I use has a nice desktop, as Neil says, but some of the system settings opens a command line window when you click them. So not a GUI for everything. My previous experience is with Linux Mint, so Antix is definitely lighter and less resource demanding, but also a little more demanding for the user. I can manage Antix this way, but my Linux experience would probably have come short if I had to to run a CLI based system.

Talking about Linux Mint, I am planning to install it on my Lenovo S10-2 notebook. That has XP now, but after XP EOL it hasn't been used much. That's a newer system, though, with resources enough to run it. But that's a different story.

And retrocomputing blends very well with my hobby. It is nice to collect Thinkpads, but also nice to find a way to actually use them.

[Sudevan]

Neil, thank you for correcting me. I went back and looked, and it turns out that the download I did was not for Antix at all! It was Arch Linux. It's hard to keep track of all the different distros I have downloaded. So now, I will download Antix and try it on one of my Legacy systems. Perhaps the 570 I recently picked up.

Bjorn, if you would like to explore Mint, Mint 17 and Mint 16 are both good systems. I cannot put Mint 17 on my T40s, however -- so I have left them running Mint 16, which is not bad at all. One of the decisions you will have to make is whether you want Cinnamon or MATE as a Desktop Environment (MATE is pronounced Mah-Tay, I believe, like the South American drink). I really find MATE more to my liking, but that may just be familiarity. I do have one of my many T43s running Cinnamon. I would encourage you to explore both environments.

I have XP on some systems and also on my old Dell desktop (Xp dual booting with Ubuntu 12.04). I've hardly used Win XP since I bought my new desktop -- a Dell XPS 8700 i7 Haswell quad-core machine, with 2 TBs of internal plus 1 TB external HD --which runs Win 7 quite nicely. I hesitated to put Linux of any sort on the new desktop because of all the hassles going on with the change from BIOS to UEFI and the kernel permissions required. Maybe next year I'll think about it.

Three cheers for retrocomputing!

Sudevan

[Sudevan]

A quick question. I am downloading Antix (the 386.iso version) and I'm wondering if it can be installed on my machine's HD. Something about their mentioning a live CD made me wonder. Thanks for any advice you might have.

[Neil]

Sure, it can be installed, either by choosing install from the GRUB menu, or from the Live session.

[Sudevan]

Thanks, Neil. Good to know.