Dear forum friends,
– all you who have read (or are now reading) my cry for help, and of course in particular all you very kind and very helpful friends, who have already responded or may later comment this issue – whether you being situated in Europe or abroad:
I deeply appreciate both all your genuine sympathy - so clearly radiating through all your posts - and I deeply appreciate all your advices and all the help so very generously and completely unselfish offered to me. I don’t know really how to express my gratitude to all of you… and just to say “Thank you” is far from sufficient, and does not really describe how I feel. The best way I am probably able to put it in words right now, is that I am very, very grateful for once more experiencing the international friendship which you so clearly through all your help demonstrate in reality EXIST
here, amongst us ThinkPad enthusiasts – completely regardless of we being spread all over the World. Owing to all of you, your maturity, and the outstanding high ethical, technical and human standards you set for this board, through YOU being here, and through YOU being the way YOU are; and through all your help – and all these high standards initiated and continuously maintained and supported by the forum Admins and Moderators; owing to all of this I have always found and right now do this even more – so much pleasure
being part of this international, friendly, helpful, unselfish community. Thank you, all of you.
To comment the suggestions and advices:
They are some sad sacks in IBM Denmark!@ RealBlackStuff:
I would suggest asking IBM Scotland, if they can repair your machine.
That way it will stay within the EU and there should not be any VAT issues. Shipping would also be considerably cheaper.
The guys in Kinnock (Scotland) have (or used to have) a manufacturing plant, so a repair would be well within their capabilities.
Best of luck.
IBM Denmark is an “independent” part of an international, commercial corporation the aim of which (aim of both, I guess) is to maximize profit. According to the above-mentioned ”Country Warranty Manager” (in IBM Denmark, the person who was responsible for denying this warranty repair), his job is simply to minimize the expenses of IBM Denmark, so that this national entity may present the largest economical result (= profit) to their mother company, IBM Corp., Inc. This is what I was told by him on the phone, when asking for an explanation for his decision. Simply put, he earns his money (wages) by saving IBM Denmark for as many repair expenses as possible. This is not a personal thing, I was explained, this is “just company rules”, which I should already have known before handing in my repair-case, I was furthermore told (eeh, oops, the IBM Support/UK personnel obviously also didn’t know these “company rules”, as you recall from the above, but I
“ought” to have know them!?!). When asked if he would consider doing an exception from those “company rules”, in this (in my opinion:) probably quite odd and unusual case, which would otherwise leave a kind of bad taste (at least in me) with respect to IBM Denmark’s reputation (you recall: I had 4 x prior written confirmation from IBM that they would
honor this warranty repair); when asked if would be willing to do this, to maintain the high reputation of IBM, the answer was that he “was unfortunately not able
” to do this. So, I asked: Well, who are able to alter your decision, then? Answer: No one in Denmark; and no one in IBM Support/UK. In other words… “you go yourself and find someone else to escalate this matter to, if you wish”. Oh, wow, definitively end of story. I should want to add at this point, that I have throughout this entire affair only and always acted completely calm, completely honest, rational, very understanding, and that I have never raised my voice, never used bad language of any sort etc. I always treated everybody totally respectful. But, in my interpretation it all boils down into this: Money is money, and is easy to see at the bottom line; reputation and customer satisfaction does not end up at the bottom line – and I am just a small, unimportant customer.
The persons I spoke to at IBM Support/UK (who are based in Greenock, Scotland) were always “on my side” in this matter, I felt, as also evident from the above. They did not, however, offer me the opportunity to ship my T42p to Scotland for IBM there to repair it. I guess that they (IBM Support/UK) also have a set of rules they need to adhere to, and they do not wish to go beyond these rules (or “bend” them to this extent), perhaps risking their own job if doing so. They clearly indicated that they felt I would loose the battle with IBM Denmark, and that I in the end would need to ship my T42p for repair in the USA. So, “the Black Man” (translated using my dictionary; I hope you all understand what this mean); the Black Man very obviously ends right here.
To be honest, Servicegruppen are a bunch of morons too. I.e. they charge you $100 if nothing is wrong (fair enough), but the two incidents i have heard anyone had to send something in to them, they screwed up. - replaced a harddrive when they said they are awaiting a new motherboard, and another case, where they claim that the headphone jack is broken and wants you to pay for a new motherboard, regardless of the fact that it works perfectly.
I am shocked to find out that IBM Denmark doesn't even have their own repair facilities considering the awful prices on Thinkpads over here.
Instead, they subcontract to SG who also repair Toshibas, FSCs and HPs. Knowing that i'm glad that neither of us support IBM DK.
RealBlackStuff's idea is great as they sound like they care in the UK. Else, buy a new motherboard on ebay and do-it-yourself.
I have (fortunately!) never had anything to do with the IBM Denmark repair sub-contractor in Denmark, ServiceGruppen, so I have no idea of their competence. They did, however, charge me 500 DK+ 25 % VAT translating to $120 for inspection my T42p and rejecting the warranty repair. Please pay, and please take your still-dead T42p with you when you leave with it, unrepaired, goodbye.
Your suggestion about sending the T42p for repair in the UK, is – in principle – good, but I would need to have someone (private person) there to ship it to, and this person handing it in for repair there, acting if my T42p was owned by he/she. There is absolutely no cheating here of any kind, but unfortunately I don’t know anybody in neither England nor Scotland who I could ask for having all this trouble just for me.
As to your suggestion about buying a “new” T42(p) motherboard off eBay, I have already considered this, but I would like to keep it is a last resort. I would rather like not
having to do this, since I have never done that kind of advanced repairs myself, and if doing it I fear that my remaining warranty (which is
valid with EZServ in the USA, throughout 2010-02-03) would surely be void forever. Should the UXGA/FlexView display ever fail, the warranty surely is worth the money, I assume. A possibility with eBay, yes, but only as a last resort.
I feel really f.. angry after reading your post. You've gone to the trouble of double and treble checking and you get the proverbial .... finger. No one deserves that sort of treatment. I cannot believe that they have turned down a warranty repair, especially after the trouble you went through to cover your back. There is definitely some big headed, "feeling important", bureaucrat, sitting there thinking who knows what. This is not RIGHT.
In my very humble opinion, I believe you have maybe made one mistake. (Please don't take this wrongly, this is no way a criticism against you, you have shown that you are more than honest). The mistake may have been to provide the repair centre in Denmark with too much information; sales receipt from a person in the US and the warranty confirmation from the UK. (They hate that in Germany as well).
Question: How do I justify the above statement?
Answer: <snip> (please see answer above - thanks)
I have some contacts; I may be able to help you and am prepared to give it a go, if you are. More than likely you will have to get your TP back and send it to me in Germany; this will cost less than sending it to the US.
Before taking any further steps I will need your s/n, you can send it to me by PM if you are interested. Other details will have to be cleared up, e.g. can you trust me etc… We can deal with that also through PMs.
EDIT: Obviously if you can win your fight in Denmark, even better.
I was overwhelmed by reading your post, Andy. I can’t say it in other words right now than those you read in the beginning of this post. I really, really appreciate you extremely (!) kind offer to help me. Please allow me to get back to that, via PM.
Well, I clearly sense your anger, and I actually had troubles falling asleep for a few nights when this “issue” was at its peak. Of course, there could be larger problems, but in the absence of such, for the time being, I am giving this quite some emotional energy, and as already expressed I am quite sorry for all this. In the unfortunate event that I should perhaps happen to run into larger and more serious problems later, I am sure that I will stop thinking of IBM Denmark in the way I do as of this time (and, no, there are no details about this, that I wish to share here).
And for the “right” or “wrong” part in this matter, I completely agree with you. But… who cares about that, at IBM?
About your comments about my “mistake” (providing the service provider with too many details and too much sales/buying information): You know, funny, Andy, because I completely agree
with you to all this! And I exactly
had this feeling already at the very time when I wrote my (detailed) error description, and when I included all this information. But… what I did not explain in my prior post is why
I explained all these details, and why I included all this information, and handed all this in with the T42p. The “funny” reason is… (yes, believe it or not!)... is that: I was instructed (via the phone) to do all this by IBM Support/UK when they filed my case (!!!)
. What they explained to me was that the Danish IBM service sub-contractor (SG) was not familiar with handling “International warranty service” repairs (in Denmark) for IBM (ha-ha!
I really believe that!!), so (quote:) in order to avoid confusion
(unquote) (!!!), they instructed me to provide all the information explained above. Funny, funny! But, in all fairness, recall that IBM Support/UK all the way thought that they were
correct in what they continued informing me: That my T42p was
indeed eligible for an IWS repair, here, in Denmark. After the quite long (more than half an hour on the phone, I was told) ”upset discussion” between IBM Support/UK and IBM Denmark about this very issue (the conversation which was said to involve management in both ends), the story ended as explained. So, IBM Support/UK was apparently believing what they said… but some strong internal-IBM disagreement seems to have been obvious (unless internal IBM policy has perhaps changed recently; what do I know??). Anyway, this is the explanation… and I totally agree with you (now, looking back) that this apparently was ”an error”, providing them with all this, honest information… but, well, I was only honest, and did what I was instructed. Oh, well – expensive lesson learned!
To the rest of your mail: Thank you ever so much for this outstanding kind proposal
; please allow me to get back to this via PM.
Johan, sorry to hear your bad experience with IBM Denmark. IMO they don't deserve the name. Since your machine is under warranty and motherboard failure is not your fault, I see no reason they refuse to repair it. Don't buy a motherboard on eBay, you paid for the warranty and you deserve better than that. If andyP couldn't help to get your ThinkPad repaired in Germany, I would give it a try in France if you want.@ ulrich:
So far I'm satisfied with the service of IBM France. If you break your keyboard or hard drive, they will send you a replacement the next day, even faster than you order from them. However, the repairing center is not that great. I don't send them my beloved TP unless I have to. Sometimes they replace the wrong parts or even break something such as the keyboard bezel or leave a scratch on your LCD lid. But they will always repair your machine as long as IBM tells them to do so. It's been a while since last time I sent my machine in. I heard the service has been improved lately. Btw, I like the way they handle the returning machines. They send someone to take it and to put in back, so no shipping is needed. It feels more secure and it's free too.
As with Andy, I was also equally overwhelmed by the kindness and support you offer, Tony. Please allow me to get back to that, via PM.
I am happy to understand that you have fortunately a much better “service level” with IBM France. Hey; I just got a great
idea: Now, if you by any chance would happen to own a fancy Chateau in Paris of your very own (say, Versailles, for example?), and if you need someone to look after the garden, or someone to carry your ThinkPad to your executive jet aircraft (a Gulfstream G-5 these days, is it?), then I
could move to Paris, and I could stay on your nice Chateau, and I could carry your ThinkPad (on your way to one of your private islands in the Mauritius, was it?), and then when I had a little time off on my own, there, alone on the Chateau, and the garden all well done; then I could hand in my T42p for repair at IBM France. Now, how are you about that
Again: Thanks ever so much, Tony; I will return to you via PM.
I am really sorry to hear about your trouble Johan.@ CZOLG
Like RealBlackStuff, I would sugggest you shipped the machine to IBM Scotland. They are aware of the problem and seem to be on your side so it probably would be possible for them to carry out the warranty work.
I recently had my machine repaired there (motherboard replacement due to the defective VGA out) and was very satisfied with the service.
: Thank you for your advice, as well – and I am pleased to hear that IBM Scotland (repair) apparently has a good reputation. However, as explained above – to RealBlackStuff – I don’t seem to have this opportunity, as it was not offered by IBM Support/UK… and I don’t know anybody in the UK or Scotland who could act as my “handling agent” there. The idea is certainly interesting and tempting, nevertheless… but I don’t know how to see it through. I will keep it in mind – thank you, too.
Hey Johan, I always enjoy your very informative posts. So sorry to hear about the hoops you've being made to jump through only to find there's no reward at the end. If they're not going to honor the warranty you paid for in good faith, they should refund your money.@ BeeJayEmm
: Brian, thank you very much for your nice feedback – it is a pleasure to see (and be remembered about) that this forum “works both ways”, particularly right now, while I am being in the position urgently asking for help from others.
As to your suggestion about requesting a refund, I don’t think that this is an option, because recall that I have indeed received what I purchased…: An extended warranty! Unfortunately, its coverage is subsequently stated to be not as I was informed at the time of buying it (and which I was also informed when trying to invoke an international warranty repair here). I am quite convinced that IBM would not for one second consider a refund for the amount paid for this warranty… they would probably continue to claim what I have already been explained: That it was I who “should have known” that it would not cover an IWS – regardless of IBM themselves four times (I keep repeating this!); regardless of themselves confirming this in writing four times to be true. But… I am just one small person, and they probably have a quite serious office full of clever, highly-paid attorneys – so who do you think are going to convince who? Finally, it is not in my interest to obtain a refund. I extended the warranty because I wanted an extended warranty. No changes on that point (except the apparent difficulties actually obtaining the IWS-repair-under-warranty!).
I am so sorry. Whenever I have dealt with IBM DK I ahve been overly satisfied with them, but they do seem to be a bunch of a**es here. Most of the service personal in the Lenovo division of IBM Denmark are extremely nice. Their number is 70105150 click 1 and 1. Maybe you should try and call them rather than IBM UK? There is definitely a Danish call center, and, as said, they are quite nice.
I have never had trouble with my US machines. I have, however, never had to ship anything to them.
Actually, I though SG had gone bankrupt. Might have been another repair center.
Either way, I hope it works out for you. You should call the Danish call center and talk to them.
Best of luck!
PS: Naturally, some of the supporters are nicer than others.
Hi Rasmus; yet a countryman; my pleasure! I have never had any repairs with IBM, so I have no a priori experience with that – but I am pleased to hear (what I already thought): That most of them are cooperative and honor their reputation.
As to who to contact about a repair: As mentioned above, my T42p (which came with a three-year IWS warranty) had its initial expiration date 2008-02-03, meaning that it was originally sold by IBM in Feb. 2005. If your turn to IBM Machine warranties and license information
, select “Version 8: For machines shipped from April 2004 to August 2006”, choose the English version, this will take you to IBM Statement of Limited Warranty
. The phone number to contact is given at the bottom at page 9, in Denmark being 45 20 82 00. The number I always used was 45 20 82 25 (as mentioned being the IBM Support team which is responsible for supporting ThinkPad customers in Denmark; this team physically being located in the UK). According to Lenovo Worldwide Support Center phone list
, I see the phone number you mention (70 10 51 50) also be given there, but I am quite certain that calls will be routed directly
to the very same team… as I am convinced that there is not an ”IBM-only” team handling ThinkPad’s sold before IBM was sold off the PC-division to Lenovo, and another team not knowing anything about the ”IBM-only” team. I am sure I will end exactly where this all started. But, I am ready to give it a call…
It’s way past midnight over here, and I need to get to bed – but I wanted to post this before I could go to sleep. Again: Thank you all you who have shared your sympathy with me, and all of you who have offered your help to get a ”happy end” to this story. After having read your posts, I am convinced that there will
a happy end. And that it will be solely (solely!) owing to the existence of this fantastic friendly forum.
Thank you, all of you.
A few PM’s will be on their way, tomorrow morning.
Further comments and suggestions are welcome – but I feel much, much better inside now. Thanks to you, friends.
Truly kind regards,