thinkpads.com Support Community Forum Index Bill Morrow's thinkpads.com Open Forum - The Original Thinkpad Support Forum
Follow ThinkpadsForum on Twitter
 Support this forum, shop at newmodeus.com
 Support the forum, shop at newmodeus.com
System backups occur about 7:00 am EDT and last about 10 minutes. This will slow performance. RSS feeds have been added to the forum.
Donate if you wish to:
bill at thinkpads dot com

It is currently Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:32 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:01 pm 
Offline
**SENIOR** Member
**SENIOR** Member

Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 10:11 am
Posts: 494
I'm setting up 32-bit Windows 7 on a newly-acquired X61. Does anyone know if there is any advantage to installing 4GB instead of 3GB of RAM in this system? I know that 32-bit Windows can only access 3GB, but is there any speed advantage to having matched 2GB sticks? Or a heat/power disadvantage to having the unused RAM.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:44 pm 
Offline
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 12:51 pm
Posts: 1561
Edward Mendelson wrote:
... is there any speed advantage to having matched 2GB sticks? Or a heat/power disadvantage to having the unused RAM.
In theory, "Yes" and "Yes". In practice, "No" and "No".
[Further confirmation of Yogi Berra's wisdom: "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:30 am 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:17 am
Posts: 770
Location: Tartu, Estonia
In short: W7 32bit can reqognize and use full 4 GB without problems (google for PAE).

_________________
X61s:L7500,4GB,128GB SSD,IPS
X32s:PM 758 LV CPU mod,2GB,64GB microSATA SSD,COM mod,IPS
701c,240,380,X60s,560X,570E,600/E,T20,T21,T30,TR451,T42p
Past:560/E/Z,600E,R30,T21,T23,T30,T40,TR451,T40p,T41,T41p,T42,T42p,T43,X20,X22,X23,X24,X31,X40,X41,X60/T,X61/s,X201,T60,T60p,T61,T400,T601p


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:30 am 
Offline
**SENIOR** Member
**SENIOR** Member

Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 10:11 am
Posts: 494
On both X61 systems I've looked at that have 4GB of RAM and 32-bit Windows 7, the system reports 4GB RAM (2.99GB usable). These posts suggest that the other 1.01 GB is being used by the system, but not usable by applications. Does that sound right?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:25 am
Posts: 5
Location: London, UK
Ed, isn't your X61 a C2D (i.e. 64bit Core2Duo), rather than just 32bit Core Duo? I thought most were?

In which case, your 32bit license key SHOULD allow you to install and activate as 64bit if you just use the other DVD.

_________________
X61 "daily runner":2.0Ghz, 4Gb DDR, 60Gb SSD (Vertex2E), Win7 Ultimate 64bit, onboard 3G, bluetooth.
X61 "the project" (half an X60 donor for the kbk+screen): 1.8Ghz, 2Gb DDR, 60Gb SSD (Vertex2E), Ubuntu 64bit.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:44 am 
Offline
**SENIOR** Member
**SENIOR** Member

Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 10:11 am
Posts: 494
bahnstormer wrote:
Ed, isn't your X61 a C2D (i.e. 64bit Core2Duo), rather than just 32bit Core Duo? I thought most were?

In which case, your 32bit license key SHOULD allow you to install and activate as 64bit if you just use the other DVD.


I still use DOS programs (WordPerfect) under Windows, and they don't run in 64-bit Windows (except in emulators), so I stick with 32-bit Windows, like someone who still uses a manual typewriter...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:43 am 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:25 am
Posts: 749
Location: Houston, TX
Edward Mendelson wrote:
On both X61 systems I've looked at that have 4GB of RAM and 32-bit Windows 7, the system reports 4GB RAM (2.99GB usable). These posts suggest that the other 1.01 GB is being used by the system, but not usable by applications. Does that sound right?


I believe "2.99G usable" means only 2.99G can be used, either by the OS or by applications. The remaining 1.01GB is not usable.

Edward Mendelson wrote:

I still use DOS programs (WordPerfect) under Windows, and they don't run in 64-bit Windows (except in emulators)


Just curious, why don't you use emulators for DOS programs? In my experience either DosBox or QEMU runs DOS programs very efficiently, and they aren't as invasive on the system as more "modern" emulators like VirtualBox (e.g. they don't install any device drivers, etc.).

_________________
X60 tablet 6363-P3U, 3GB ram, 128GB SanDisk Extreme SSD, SXGA+ screen, Intel 6300
T61 Frankenpad in 15 inch T60 body, UXGA LED-lit AFFS LCD, T9300, 6GB RAM, NVidia NVS140m, Intel 6205, 128GB Crucial M4 SSD, 1TB HGST HDD + eBay caddy in Ultrabay
701c butterfly, 75MHz 486DX4, 40MB ram, 1GB CF card


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:57 am 
Offline
**SENIOR** Member
**SENIOR** Member

Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 10:11 am
Posts: 494
twistero wrote:
Just curious, why don't you use emulators for DOS programs? In my experience either DosBox or QEMU runs DOS programs very efficiently, and they aren't as invasive on the system as more "modern" emulators like VirtualBox (e.g. they don't install any device drivers, etc.).


Very briefly: Easy access to the printer; clipboard exchange with Windows, and all of my various macros and scripts that integrate WordPerfect with Windows work correctly from the VDM. I've spent a lot of time putting together a software system that uses DOSBox to run WPDOS in 64-bit Windows, complete with printer support and some support for integration with the Windows clipboard, but I still prefer to use 32-bit Windows. All the details are here:

http://wpdos.org/64bitwindows.html

As you'll see, I've been thinking about this question for many years, have heard (I think) all the arguments in favor of emulaors, and have spent a lot of time devising and testing the methods described on that page. I still prefer to use the NTVDM in 32-bit Windows.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:25 am
Posts: 5
Location: London, UK
I know you're trying to keep the advantages of something that you've built in the past, but the rest of your system needs to move with the times.

Why not run a 1Gb 32bit windowsXP / win7x86 Virtual Machine, then you can run you WP4DOS in there, with full access to your windows clipboard / printer, but the rest of the machine is 64bit... hell I think some people are running 8Gb ram on X61's, so you could give winXP 32bit 2-3Gb (i.e. what you have now AND have 5-6Gb for your 64bit OS.

_________________
X61 "daily runner":2.0Ghz, 4Gb DDR, 60Gb SSD (Vertex2E), Win7 Ultimate 64bit, onboard 3G, bluetooth.
X61 "the project" (half an X60 donor for the kbk+screen): 1.8Ghz, 2Gb DDR, 60Gb SSD (Vertex2E), Ubuntu 64bit.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:48 pm 
Offline
**SENIOR** Member
**SENIOR** Member

Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 10:11 am
Posts: 494
Excellent idea. Will try it. Meanwhile, WPDos runs very nicely in 32-bit Windows 7 on the X61. Will report back when I've tried your suggestion.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:45 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:25 am
Posts: 749
Location: Houston, TX
bahnstormer wrote:
Why not run a 1Gb 32bit windowsXP / win7x86 Virtual Machine, then you can run you WP4DOS in there, with full access to your windows clipboard / printer, but the rest of the machine is 64bit...


I wonder whether Windows 7's "XP mode" does the same thing.

_________________
X60 tablet 6363-P3U, 3GB ram, 128GB SanDisk Extreme SSD, SXGA+ screen, Intel 6300
T61 Frankenpad in 15 inch T60 body, UXGA LED-lit AFFS LCD, T9300, 6GB RAM, NVidia NVS140m, Intel 6205, 128GB Crucial M4 SSD, 1TB HGST HDD + eBay caddy in Ultrabay
701c butterfly, 75MHz 486DX4, 40MB ram, 1GB CF card


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:05 pm 
Offline
**SENIOR** Member
**SENIOR** Member

Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 10:11 am
Posts: 494
twistero wrote:
I wonder whether Windows 7's "XP mode" does the same thing.


"XP mode" is really terrible for DOS apps. See the report on it in the page linked in the message three posts up.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:25 am
Posts: 5
Location: London, UK
Quote:
"XP mode" is really terrible for DOS apps.


nooooo.... use the XPmode is just one TINY bit of what Virtual PC can do: XPmode is just a pre-configured XP running in Virtual PC for people who don't know how to install an operating system.... you can launch any OS you want!

I'd recommend FreeDOS, but if you've got the disks, you can even launch DOS 6.22 or DRDOS if you want... but you may have trouble accessing some partition types beyond the OS partition and you'll waste memory loading TSR's like ntfs4dos.

There's lots of people providing the .VMC files, if you can't be bothered building your own, but it's really quick and worth doing for yourself:

Just jotted down a few notes now, while building a new FreeDOS1.1 image, but the expectation is that you know your way around DOS and a PC in general, so PM me / shout on this thread if I've lost you:

Go to http://www.freedos.org/download/ and download the latest ISO (DOS on a CD, who would have thought!!) - do NOT burn to a disc!

From the start menu, Launch Virtual PC and create a new Virtual Machine, then right click: Settings, DVDdrive, change the setting to "Open an ISO", also change memory down to 16Mb / 32MB... (even 4Mb is fine, especially if RAM is tight!), but my last pure DOS machine had 16Mb Extended RAM and 16Mb Expanded RAM, so I normally set 32Mb, but probably never use more than 2Mb....

Not sure if it matters, but I'd recommend setting the virtual HDD to "fixed size" and a FAT friendly partition size (e.g. 1024Mb is usually plenty).... it's only a 40Mb CD, so a FULL with every extra tool and utility ticked will leave you with >950Mb free! I know I've started a setup on a 128Gb expanding FAT32 partition before, but restarted as I figured I'd rather control it manually.

Now boot (double click) the Virtual machine, choose the FDISK option and create a "large" (FAT32) partiiton using 100% of the disk, on reboot, if you've only got the one virtual HDD (default) and there's only the one partition, it will already be active, but when you reboot, you will get this error: "Partition Signature !=55AA".

The error is because you now have a valid partition higher in the boot order than the CD-ROM, so it's trrying to boot off that: switch the VM off (close the window, choose "turn off").

Start the VM again, hit DEL fast to get into the BIOS. Go to the boot tab, boot priority: ENTER on PXE and disable, ENTER on floppy and disable, make sure CD is ABOVE the first HDD. F10 to save, then reboot, so it reboots from the CD-ROM.

Now proceed with a fairly simple and intuitive install: your first boot you should choose the Install option.... once you've gone through the full install, it will reboot and take you to the same boot screen again: Go back to the Virtual PC settings, remove the ISO image from the DVD option (i.e. eject the CD), close the VM and restart it: it should boot straight to a DOS loader screen.

Create as many copies as you want for however many sessions you want or repeat for whichever operating systems that you want...

A few years ago, I had Workgroups 3.11 running (under DOS 7.0, I think!!) in the same way on Virtual PC 2007, so I assume its still possible.

Hell, I've even got Ubuntu (Linux) running in one of my Microsoft Virtual PC sessions... just put whichever boot ISO you want into the machine: you can even launch ghost / Acronis true image off a boot "CD" (iso) or from an actual CD... and then restore an old OS off a hard drive onto the virtual image... I'd advise Acronis so you can use the portability options for driver compatibility though.

_________________
X61 "daily runner":2.0Ghz, 4Gb DDR, 60Gb SSD (Vertex2E), Win7 Ultimate 64bit, onboard 3G, bluetooth.
X61 "the project" (half an X60 donor for the kbk+screen): 1.8Ghz, 2Gb DDR, 60Gb SSD (Vertex2E), Ubuntu 64bit.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:18 am 
Offline
**SENIOR** Member
**SENIOR** Member

Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 10:11 am
Posts: 494
Thanks for all the advice, but I've actually spent a lot of time experimenting with absolutely all these methods and have written them up in great detail on the following pages and elsewhere, with special attention to VirtualPC, DOSBox, and DOS emulation under Linux:

http://wpdos.org/64bitwindows.html#selectemulator (lists the advantages and disadvantages of six different methods of running WordPerfect for DOS under 64-bit Windows)

http://wpdos.org/virtualpc.html (includes a complete disk image and full instructions - more or less similar to the ones in the post above - for installing MS-DOS in VirtualPC 2007, using the shared folder feature with DOS [I supply the shared-folder driver from VirtualPC 2004 because it doesn't ship with VirtualPC 2007; and incidentally, no such driver seems to be available for FreeDOS], and printing from WordPerfect; also full instructions for creating a Windows 98 machine in VirtualPC; plus much else; my method completely automates the installation of DOS, and is perhaps simpler than the method described in the post above. Also, yes, I have experimented often and extensively with FreeDOS, but MS-DOS is far more reliable when running demanding programs like WordPerfect for DOS, and that's why I provide a pre-built installer for it)

http://wpdos.org/linux.html#vmware (complete instructions and support files for running WordPerfect for DOS under DOSEMU in Linux in VMware Workstation)

http://wpdos.org/wpdosbox64.html (a complete system for running DOSBox with clipboard support, printing support, etc., etc.)

One thing that all these methods provide is a way to exchange files with the Windows host and also to print.

Of course I'd be very grateful to learn about any methods I haven't discovered, especially if they include ways of exchanging files with the Windows host and printing from DOS, but before anyone spends a lot of time spelling out a method of running DOS programs under 64-bit Windows, I hope they'll check to see whether I've already described or provided the same thing on one of the pages listed above. I haven't seen anything else on the net that provides as much detail about these matters, but of course I'll always be glad to learn of anything I haven't described on those pages.

P.S.: To clarify something in the post above, "XP Mode" and "VirtualPC 2007" are based on the same code, but they work in very different ways. "XP Mode" uses Terminal Services to communicate between the host and XP guest; "VirtualPC 2007" uses a "shared folder" feature. "XP Mode" is useful for running Windows programs, but "VirtualPC 2007" works far better for using DOS programs when you want to print, exchange data, etc. And, yes, I've worked extensively with both, and even wrote a long account of "XP Mode" here: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2346464,00.asp - but of course I'm always grateful for new information.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group