Bios problems, T43.

Message

winpitt · #1 Post by **winpitt** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:14 am

A T43 (1871-4bu) Just "attempted" to upgrade bios to 1.28, which says you need embedded controller 1.04 or higher. Also says to upgrade bios before upgrading embedded controller program.

Upgraded bios with no issue. Attempt to upgrade embedded controller ALWAYS fails. Tried rolling back bios, and cannot. Receive error message telling me that execution failed, reboot and run firmware update again. Happens consistently. From safe mode, from CD, from Windows, etc. 1.28 was apparently released Dec 13th. Now I can't go back to a previous bios version either.

Anybody else? IBM/Lenovo was absolutely no help whatsoever. If I can't resolve th is, the T43 will need to go back I guess.

#2 Post by **GomJabbar** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:01 am

Which version of the embedded controller do you have currently installed? The current version is 1.05.

You should be able to upgrade using the diskette version. You create a bootable floppy and update from that. Of course you need an external USB floppy drive for the diskette version, although here is a method for using a USB key (I have not personally tried it though as I have an external USB floppy drive).

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=24503

no_man · #3 Post by **no_man** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:44 am

On Sunday, 12/24/2006, I successfully upgraded my T43p.
1. Downloaded the NON-diskette versions of embedded controller, and bios software.
2. Upgraded the embedded controller (instructions: first upgrade controller.)
3. Upgraded the bios.
4. Using Thinkpad Configuration Utility, system information displayed version IDs confirming the upgrades.
5. Entered bios and confirmed results as expected, tweaked my settings.
Both updates required my activated supervisor password.
that is all

winpitt · #4 Post by **winpitt** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:33 am

no_man wrote:On Sunday, 12/24/2006, I successfully upgraded my T43p.
1. Downloaded the NON-diskette versions of embedded controller, and bios software.
2. Upgraded the embedded controller (instructions: first upgrade controller.)
3. Upgraded the bios.
4. Using Thinkpad Configuration Utility, system information displayed version IDs confirming the upgrades.
5. Entered bios and confirmed results as expected, tweaked my settings.
Both updates required my activated supervisor password.
that is all

Unfortunately, the T43P has a completely different BIOS. The T43P current version is 1.29 - the T43 1.28 was just released about a week ago. Also, the instructions for the T43 state specifically "If you need to update Embedded Controller Program as well as the BIOS, update BIOS first."

winpitt · #5 Post by **winpitt** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:35 am

GomJabbar wrote:Which version of the embedded controller do you have currently installed? The current version is 1.05.

You should be able to upgrade using the diskette version. You create a bootable floppy and update from that. Of course you need an external USB floppy drive for the diskette version, although here is a method for using a USB key (I have not personally tried it though as I have an external USB floppy drive).

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=24503

I've got version 1.03 of the Embedded Controller, which apparently is not compatible with BIOS 1.28. Unfortunately for me, 1.28 BIOS has now prevented me from flashing BIOS or controller anymore.

I don't have a USB floppy. However, I do have a USB flash drive. I'll take a look at booting from that, though I've booted from CD and had no luck either, so I am not optimistic that it will work either. It's looking more and more that the machine will have to be replaced.

#6 Post by **GomJabbar** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:37 am

You said you booted from a CD. The Embedded Controller update available on Lenovo's site does not have a CD version. Did you create a bootable CD using the Diskette Version image? I understand that this can be done, but is this how you did it?

FYI: I also have had trouble updating my BIOS using the Windows version. The diskette version worked fine in my case. I believe if the diskette version won't work, then either the diskette was not properly made or has errors on it, or you are using the wrong Embedded Controller update program, or you do not have a fully charged battery attached, or the BIOS is set to not allow flashing without a Supervisor password, or your BIOS is damaged.

Access IBM Help wrote:BIOS Update Option

Flash BIOS Updating by End-users
Enabled or Disabled

If you select "Enabled," all users can update the Flash BIOS. If you select "Disabled," only the person who knows supervisor password can update the Flash BIOS.

Embedded Controller Program (Non-Diskette) - ThinkPad R52 (1858, 1859, 1860, 1861, 1862, 1863, 1958), T43 (1871, 1872, 1873, 1874, 1875, 1876)

winpitt · #7 Post by **winpitt** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:25 pm

OK, an update.

Tried booting from USB. Could not get a good floppy image onto the USB device that the T43 would recognize. No problem creating a bootable USB drive that worked. However, diskette image of embedded controller program update just couldn't be imaged onto the USB drive. The T43 at bootup would see it as a legacy floppy, but could not read it.

Created yet another CD ISO image of the embedded controller diskette update and burned it. Used a different tool to create the ISO this time. This time it worked. Now have EC ver 1.05. Bottom line is that the IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad firmware updates are horrible. I'm evaluating these as a potential enterprise solution and I sure couldn't expect my help desk to manage our fleet when firmware updates are this bad. Is this typical? I really like the form factor and build quality of the Thinkpads, but this is a systems management nightmare. Can't imagine how to deal with 800 remote salesmen if/when updates were required!

winpitt · #8 Post by **winpitt** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:29 pm

I used the diskette version. Created a floppy, then an ISO image of the floppy, then burned a CD with the ISO. Battery fully charged, AC plugged in. Correct versions all around. No supervisor pw for BIOS, etc. T43 didn't like the image apparently. See my other post for subsequent results.

GomJabbar wrote:You said you booted from a CD. The Embedded Controller update available on Lenovo's site does not have a CD version. Did you create a bootable CD using the Diskette Version image? I understand that this can be done, but is this how you did it?

FYI: I also have had trouble updating my BIOS using the Windows version. The diskette version worked fine in my case. I believe if the diskette version won't work, then either the diskette was not properly made or has errors on it, or you are using the wrong Embedded Controller update program, or you do not have a fully charged battery attached, or the BIOS is set to not allow flashing without a Supervisor password, or your BIOS is damaged.

Access IBM Help wrote:BIOS Update Option

Flash BIOS Updating by End-users
Enabled or Disabled

If you select "Enabled," all users can update the Flash BIOS. If you select "Disabled," only the person who knows supervisor password can update the Flash BIOS.
Embedded Controller Program (Non-Diskette) - ThinkPad R52 (1858, 1859, 1860, 1861, 1862, 1863, 1958), T43 (1871, 1872, 1873, 1874, 1875, 1876)

#9 Post by **GomJabbar** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:04 pm

I am not sure that the fact that the Windows version of the BIOS update not always working is really Lenovo's fault. Too many different software environments and variables out there.

I do agree that a CD version should always be available for these types of updates; given that the Windows version is kind of a hit or miss type of thing. Many people just do not have a USB floppy drive laying around, and they do not want to spend $50 to get one. I bought one a couple of years ago because I figured I would need it for BIOS updates and such. It also comes in handy for using the Disaster Recovery feature of my backup program: StompSoft Backup MyPC.

winpitt · #10 Post by **winpitt** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:17 pm

I understand it's difficult, but it's absolutely essential that there be a method to manage the machines without having a physical CD or floppy. The T series is an Enterprise class system. It's not consumer grade. Also, I tried this on 3 separate T43's. One with XP Pro SP1, One with XP Pro SP2, and One with Vista Ultimate. All three completely failed in the exact same fashion. Lenovo is clearly 100% at fault for releasing buggy software in this case. The 1.28 BIOS caused the issue (released Dec 13th 2006). Very poor testing. All 3 machines were absolutely clean, plain base images. There are no additional variables. Just Base Windows install and the T43. I even removed all extra memory to make sure.

The idea of having to physically touch more than 4000 of these things makes my hair stand on end. Other vendors seem to have better success in fielding firmware updates that will execute properly even if it takes safe mode. Can't give IBM or Lenovo a pass on this one. Further, their support had absolutely no idea that a problem even existed - though clearly people have reported it. I'm quite unhappy with the quality of support and management capabilities. On the other hand, I still think that the Thinkpad is a quality product - unfortunately based on this it's no longer a consideration for deployment at my company. Can't move away from existing systems that don't have this issue. It's all about the cost of support. Too bad, because I've still like using the machine!

Lazarus · #11 Post by **Lazarus** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:42 pm

While I understand your frustration about the update problems, most of it is not Lenovo's fault.

They are to blame for lack of providing a CD ISO image for the update.
A USB stick image would even be better, but only Linux folks get that much service.

As far as not being able to update the embedded controller chip within Windoze, that is just not possible for technical reasons.

That chip is in use as long as Windoze is up & running and for that very same reason can not have its BIOS changed at the same time.

So you need to boot outside of Windoze to make the changes.
That will be the same no matter what HW you use.

The only way to bypass this is to chose a system with that much fewer gizmos.
So the real question here would be do you need laptops with integrated security chip for your fleet?
I mean is the data on those boxes that high security that SW encryption alone won't do the trick?

winpitt · #12 Post by **winpitt** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:50 am

Yes. The data for many uses is exactly that sensitive. We are a regulated company.

I also respectfully disagree with your comment that a windows update is not possible for technical reasons. That is an incorrect statement. There exist many other systems running XP Pro SP1 or SP2 that have perfectly well behaved firmware update utilities that do not require booting from external media. I've personally used them. If you're saying for some reason that the security features embedded in the T4x create a different scenario, that's a different statement.

This isn't a windows (or in your terms windoze) vs linux discussion. It's a support issue for Enterprise class products.

Lazarus · #13 Post by **Lazarus** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:43 am

winpitt wrote:Yes. The data for many uses is exactly that sensitive. We are a regulated company.

I also respectfully disagree with your comment that a windows update is not possible for technical reasons. That is an incorrect statement. There exist many other systems running XP Pro SP1 or SP2 that have perfectly well behaved firmware update utilities that do not require booting from external media. I've personally used them. If you're saying for some reason that the security features embedded in the T4x create a different scenario, that's a different statement.

This isn't a windows (or in your terms windoze) vs linux discussion. It's a support issue for Enterprise class products.

It all depends on whether or not the HW you want to update can be switched offline or not.
If not then I don't care what system you're working on, YOU CAN NOT CHANGE THE FIRMWARE OF A UNIT THAT IS IN USE.

Its simply technically impossible, lest you are willing to risk major data loss.

For the very same reason you need to boot from CD or Floppy to update your harddisk firmware.
If you say you got any SW which updates e.g. your disk firmware while that HD is in use, then that would be a lawsuit in the making.

You can update the BIOS of your graphic card, since you can simply switch it off for a while in the process (black screen), you can do the same for your audio card and so forth.

But the embedded controller chip is used to decode and encode life data in real time and if they did not include a simply opcode to switch it offline for a while, then you might call that a design flaw.

But then again, IBM/Lenovo did not develop that chip and how often do people normally perform BIOS upgrades (if it ain't broke, don't fix it)?

I'm not saying that process could not be improved.
Like e.g. only sending out such BIOS updates as package deals, upgrading all affected components in one step, which might introduce new problems of its own.
But what I am saying is that you are faced with some major technical hurdles here and should be careful to expect better from other companies/manufacturers.

In short, a BIOS/Firmware upgrade is never to be taken lightly and should only be performed if realy needed.
Often they fix errors or support new chip sets that are of no concern to you. So check the history file first.

Lazarus · #14 Post by **Lazarus** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:46 am

If you got the $ to spare or the connections for this, then get yourself some Sony or Toshiba laptop with embedded security chip and see how they handle BIOS upgrades.
Then make a simple price/performance comparison and take it from there.
Lenovo is not the only player out there and no one should object to an honest comparison .

winpitt · #15 Post by **winpitt** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:30 am

Not quite so. If we're talking about system BIOS, there are plenty of examples out there of utilities capable of reliably flashing system BIOS without corrupting the system or creating undue risk. They've been around for years, quite frankly - and have been successfully used in such a manner. Further, the fact that IBM has a windows based BIOS update which works for some and does not work for others further shows that this is not only possible, but is reality. On this specific forum folks have already remarked that they've used the "online" or "live" BIOS update successfully. Many (maybe most) others claim no such success. The only way that your statement that it's "impossible" could be correct is if absolutely nobody was able to run the utility. They were.

I'm quite familiar with system architecture, and realize that it's far easier to update firmware on a single machine by booting to a separate media with update utilities on it. That does not mean that it's the only way - or the preferable way, in particular for Enterprise customers.

I'm not, however, familiar yet with the embedded controller chip. However, that's not the problem here anyway. The problem was that the 1.28 BIOS update worked correctly via windows, but then the result of the 1.28 update was that no other updates would work - including flashing back to 1.27 or previous. So, this really has nothing to do with the embedded controller specifically - but really the system BIOS. Further, you know just as well as I do that manufacturers will frequently (when facing an issue that may be difficult to diagnose) tell users that their BIOS is out of date and requires being updated in order to continue to try and find root cause. It happens with my folks all the time. It happens on both server AND desktop/laptop issues. That's why this is important. That's exactly why I updated in the first place - to see how well the utilities worked. It's something my folks do remotely all the time now, and is not something that we can seriously consider giving up.

I'm hoping that makes more sense to you. Maybe I was not being clear. In any case, I still think this is a great product, but unfortunately can't consider it for corporate wide deployment at this time because of potential support issues related to this. We don't have this issue today. I hope it gets better - I'll stick around with this one but will return the other 2.

winpitt · #16 Post by **winpitt** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:33 am

Lazarus wrote:If you got the $ to spare or the connections for this, then get yourself some Sony or Toshiba laptop with embedded security chip and see how they handle BIOS upgrades.
Then make a simple price/performance comparison and take it from there.
Lenovo is not the only player out there and no one should object to an honest comparison .

Not a bad idea, but neither Toshiba nor Sony are IMHO up to well managed enterprise management. The only players I can really consider are IBM, HP and Dell. We were banking on being able to use the embedded security chip but may need to continue resorting to other two factor type solutions. On the other hand, more and more will be releasing with this technology in the future - and I really don't think that this issue is specifically related to the security chip. It really seems more likely that it's system BIOS related - most specifically with the 1.28 version. I was able to successfully and easily flash to 1.28. After that, nothing. Not even back to the previous version.

bill bolton · #17 Post by **bill bolton** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:04 pm

winpitt wrote: The problem was that the 1.28 BIOS update worked correctly via windows, but then the result of the 1.28 update was that no other updates would work - including flashing back to 1.27 or previous.

You said in another thread....

"I'd appreciate any steps you took. All I did was the base image, loaded the trusted and ultranav sw from lenovo. 1.28 BIOS and 1.05 embedded controller"

Somethings are not adding up here at all!

winpitt · #18 Post by **winpitt** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:19 pm

bill bolton wrote:
winpitt wrote: The problem was that the 1.28 BIOS update worked correctly via windows, but then the result of the 1.28 update was that no other updates would work - including flashing back to 1.27 or previous.
You said in another thread....

"I'd appreciate any steps you took. All I did was the base image, loaded the trusted and ultranav sw from lenovo. 1.28 BIOS and 1.05 embedded controller"

Somethings are not adding up here at all!

I understand your confusion. I have gone through 3 installs thus far - completely wiping the disk before each one. The BIOS update to 1.28 via the windows download worked perfectly. But then the embedded controller update would not, and neither would the bios flash to get back to a previous version.

I messed with it a bit, and then created bootable CDs of the Floppy based ISO, and went successfully through the updates with them. They worked correctly. The downloaded windows based did not. I then loaded the Ultranav and trusted software packages. My issues with the BIOS/firmware is about the (IMHO) poor quality of the non-diskette based upgrades. I'm beyond that personally - though professionally it still likely eliminates the T series from deployment to users.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

I also tonight tried Windows update (again) and it found a recommended update for the sound. However, the update failed. It gave me an error code of 80070103. The driver was from "Analog Devices", and is listed as "SoundMAX Integrated Digital Audio". I tried 3 times and had the same 3 results. It continues to show up as "failed" in my update history. The "More Information" tab in "update history" takes you to a non-functional URL - or perhaps more accurately it says that it is not available at this time.

There's honestly no funny business going on. I'd be more than happy to provide any further clarification - especially if it could possibly help either myself or anyone else looking through this site.

#19 Post by **Kyocera** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:00 pm

To winpitt and lazrus, trim your quotes to include relevent points, snip out what you are responding to please, or i'll do it for you.

winpitt · #20 Post by **winpitt** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:56 pm

I thought I was. Is there a problem? You seem to be a bit ticked off...

christopher_wolf · #21 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:58 pm

winpitt wrote:I thought I was. Is there a problem? You seem to be a bit ticked off...

Not now and not much, particularly; but large quotes are somewhat tiresome to cover fully you see. It isn't much to ask to trim the quotes. Please only quote the relevant portions.

winpitt · #22 Post by **winpitt** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:03 pm

OK, I guess forum etiquette is a bit different here. I personally find that a bit more in the quote actually shows the context. For example, Bill Bolton in this thread quoted just "part" of my post - not including some additional text that would clearly show that I was discussing the failure of the non-diskette bios and embedded controller updates. And that later in that post I specified that I used the diskette versions successfully, including the method of doing so. If you just read the "pertinent" part he quoted, it seems as though I said two different things. In fact, I was very consistent.

However, you guys make the rules here. I'll abide by them. No worries. Just my 2 cents.

christopher_wolf · #23 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:04 pm

That's sorted then, excellent!

#24 Post by **carbon_unit** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:15 pm

Wata features are you after in these bios and embedded controller updates?

winpitt · #25 Post by **winpitt** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:17 pm

Two goals for update.

1) Latest firmware to increase potential success for Vista Ultimate RTM (available currently via MSDN as RTM). BIOS update requires embedded controller update.

2) Evaluation of ease/difficulty in managing & supporting T series thinkpads as replacement units.

Somewhat successful for item 1 - though still have no audio after Vista install. Understand that it's just RTM, and don't expect miracles so no big deal here.

Consider item 2 as a relative failure. Too time consuming and error prone. Perfectly fine for the general consumer. Insufficient management for large enterprises.

#26 Post by **Kyocera** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:48 am

I thought I was. Is there a problem? You seem to be a bit ticked off...

That's funny, most of your post's above contain the entire post previous, except the one I deleted out.

Most people here are intelligent enough to understand the context of post's and responses. You'll get used to the rules in time I guess.

winpitt · #27 Post by **winpitt** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:10 am

Lazarus, let's just let it go. These guys are admins here and apparently this forum is run a bit differently than elsewhere. To me, clipping quotes very frequently results in people having text taken out of context. I've seen it tons of places, and frankly have seen it here. While I personally think that it is a disservice and lessens the value, that's just my opinion and these guys do make the rules - and it is a reasonable request of them.

There could be alot of value gained for me personally here and I already said that while I don't agree that it's right, I agree that it's the way it is. I already said (last night) that I would comply.

#28 Post by **Kyocera** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:50 am

OK, I deleted out the comments and locking this for the admins to unlock, if they choose to, the comments are gone, I deleted them, flaming against moderators is just a dumb idea, some may put up with it not me.

Bios problems, T43.

Bios problems, T43.

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