flexview and eye strain

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sb37 · #1 Post by **sb37** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:03 pm

hi all --

i've read a few of the posts on flexviews and eyestrain/headaches, and was having some issues myself. i've tried all sorts of things, and i've come to the conclusion that it's the brightness that was causing the eye strain - reducing the brightness is the only thing i've done which eliminates it. here are things that didn't make a (major) difference:

cleartype, on or off
font scaling
screen resolution

anyone else have similar observations? btw it's the lg-philips sxga+ 15" sips. i've decided that while working it's best to keep the screen at 4 or 5 (of 7). this brings it to similar brightness to 7 of 7 on my 14" t40. When i'm watching a movie and sitting further away, cranking up the brightness is nice.

hope this helps somebody.

san · #2 Post by **san** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:19 pm

I think I read somewhere that the LG phillips flexview in the T60p is of a newer and brighter type than those found on the regular T60. My experience is only with the ladder and it definately wasnt very bright at all. Standing next to my Sony CRT, the old BOE hydis flexview and even a regular T60 (non flexview) white didnt even seem "real" white on max. brightness.
At last I came to the conclusion that it was the anti reflective coating of the screen that caused what I can best descripe as a "layer of sparkles". The ambient light determined how annoying this sparkling would get... generally , more ambient light = more sparkles. The problem was mostly with black text on white background where I had to strain the eyes to keep focus on the letters, rather than on the "sparkles". It is really hard to explain, but it seems that a lot of panels has this sparkling anti reflective coating these days, e.g. the Macbook pro.
Like you, I tried many things like font scaling and cleartype (my panel did exceptionally poor with cleartype by the way, many fonts turned almost completely red).
I have now got a new TP with the UXGA boe hydis display and am delighted to be able to work for hours on , without eye strain even with default font settings (very small letters!).

Another thought I had was to have a specialst like tdcomponents.com in Germany replace the polarizing film with another "non sparkling" type, I am sure this would help. The cost would be around 150€ or so, including shipping. Worth considering IMO, since the display in many ways are really excellent.

WPWoodJr · #3 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:55 pm

san wrote:I think I read somewhere that the LG phillips flexview in the T60p is of a newer and brighter type than those found on the regular T60. My experience is only with the ladder and it definately wasnt very bright at all. Standing next to my Sony CRT, the old BOE hydis flexview and even a regular T60 (non flexview) white didnt even seem "real" white on max. brightness.
At last I came to the conclusion that it was the anti reflective coating of the screen that caused what I can best descripe as a "layer of sparkles". The ambient light determined how annoying this sparkling would get... generally , more ambient light = more sparkles. The problem was mostly with black text on white background where I had to strain the eyes to keep focus on the letters, rather than on the "sparkles". It is really hard to explain, but it seems that a lot of panels has this sparkling anti reflective coating these days, e.g. the Macbook pro.
Like you, I tried many things like font scaling and cleartype (my panel did exceptionally poor with cleartype by the way, many fonts turned almost completely red).

My T60p with LG Flexview has nothing like that going on! It looks great with Cleartype, and it is a bright display compared to older Thinkpads, I measured it at about 165 cd/m2.

I also had a T60 with the LG display last Dec-Jan, and it too was a gorgeous display. Yours must have been defective.

san · #4 Post by **san** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:17 pm

I hope mine was defective, but I wouldnt know. Many others have had issues with "sparkling" on this particular display, and just as many cant see it or is not bothered by it. My display was manufactured in 2005 according to aida32.

WPWoodJr · #5 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:06 pm

2005? Maybe that explains it. The two displays I have experience with were manufactured recently. What you describe is an off-white display with low brightness and red letters when using Cleartype - that is so far from my experience and sounds far worse than the sparkle some complain of.

san · #6 Post by **san** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:31 pm

The white is "off-white" because of the sparkling , it is a very strange phenomenon but I did see a simular effect on a Macbook Pro recently (that display was way brighter though, but colors was distorted with viewing angle, definately not an IPS).
Would you mind checking up on the manufacturing date on your display ? AIDA32 will show it.

sb37 · #7 Post by **sb37** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:06 pm

mine is 2005 - i'd be willing to guess they all are. i suppose i see some sparkling, but whites are very white, especially at full brightness.

WPWoodJr · #8 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:57 pm

Mine says 2005 too - I don't know whether to believe it. I took a photo of my display here:

LG 15" Flexview SXGA+ Display

How does this compare to your LG? (Be sure to view the image full size otherwise you will see moire patterns).

claudeo · #9 Post by **claudeo** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:11 pm

I don't use a FlexView screen, but in my experience reflective screens tend to cause much worse eye strain and headaches mostly because we "tune out" reflections of bright objects in the screen. Rather than recognizing that they are there and doing something about them, our brain works overtime to try to extract a good picture from those zones of the screen that contain reflections. We have a very smart visual cortex but it is not really built for that kind of stress day in and day out. I have adjusted many people's computer screens to eliminate reflections--without telling them exactly what I did. They often perceive an immediate improvement, even though they can't quite say what it is. Result: less strain and fewer headaches.

Another factor is something I discovered recently. Many people have "visual" migraine symptoms that do not include a headache. For example, I started experiencing scintillating scotoma a few weeks ago. It does not matter how good the screen is, when that hits I just can't look at it for any length of time.

npish · #10 Post by **npish** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:50 pm

here's a question: putting aside the issue of Lenovo's apparent discontinuation of Flexview/IPS displays, is LG/Phillips their ONLY current/most recent supplier--that is to say, if you've ordered a T60 w/ FV in the past few months, does it *definitely* contain an LG display?

I'm curious because I'm at the point of wanting to request a replacement panel to see if this "sparkle" quality of the coating is particularly bad on mine, or just an inherent quality of all LG/Phillips Flexview panels (even though I'm fairly certain that it's the latter)...

I'm posing the initial question because I'm wondering if it's currently possible to get a NON-LG Flexview display from Lenovo (at least for those seeking replacements under warranty, as they do not seem to be available for new purchases); if so, it would be interesting for the sake of comparison with respect to this coating problem.....

san · #11 Post by **san** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:40 am

Hi npish,

LG Phillips is the only supplier of flexview displays now. It is a good question though, if there are sample variations.
Another solution I tought of, was to actually send the panel to Germany, to a specialist called tdcomponents.com and have them replace the polarizer film to a "non sparkling" type. Its not overly expensive.

WPWoodJr · #12 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:17 am

claudeo wrote:I don't use a FlexView screen, but in my experience reflective screens tend to cause much worse eye strain and headaches mostly because we "tune out" reflections of bright objects in the screen.

The Flexview screen is a matte screen, not glossy. So reflections are pretty diffuse.

#13 Post by **archer6** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:49 pm

WPWoodJr wrote:The Flexview screen is a matte screen, not glossy. So reflections are pretty diffuse.

This is 100% correct. I have three T series ThinkPads with Flexview displays and I find them all very clear, bright, evenly lit and quite easy on the eyes. The color saturation and depth is absolutely fantastic. I have not experienced any of the "Sparkles" that are being reported here. Simply enjoying these stellar displays.

One of these three is over a year old and every bit a brilliant and bright as day one. It's my main ThinkPad which I'm in front of for 8 to 10 hours per day.

Cheers...

npish · #14 Post by **npish** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:21 pm

From all of these threads noting the "sparkle" or grainy coating issue on the 15" Flexviews, the disagreement surrounding its actual existence is very interesting/troubling to me....this leads to the conclusion that--assuming we're all talking about these LG versions--either (1) this issue varies in extent from panel to panel, or (2) some people are sensitive to it while others aren't;

I would be curious to hear from someone who is/has been in a position to look at multiple panels and see if the quality of the coating is consistent; I would also be curious for those who seem to NOT experience this issue to take a look at a 15" MacBook Pro and see if they notice anything....I took a look at one at CompUSA and, as discussed on numerous MBP forums, the surface coating quality is best described as exhibiting "noise"-- ie. like applying a noise filter in Photoshop...

dsalyers · #15 Post by **dsalyers** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:56 pm

npish wrote: I would be curious to hear from someone who is/has been in a position to look at multiple panels and see if the quality of the coating is consistent; I would also be curious for those who seem to NOT experience this issue to take a look at a 15" MacBook Pro and see if they notice anything....I took a look at one at CompUSA and, as discussed on numerous MBP forums, the surface coating quality is best described as exhibiting "noise"-- ie. like applying a noise filter in Photoshop...

I briefly owned a MacBook Pro, before I returned it for a thinkpad. It didn't bother me, but the MacBooks with the Matte finish anti-glare screen did look noisy to me. Now, the glossy screen did not have the noise effect, but of course the reflection is annoying. The Z61p I have and I have access to about 10 other T and X series. All of them have similar looking screens. I would say it does have some grainyness, but I thought the MacBook Pro was worse.

My biggest complaint is that I think all of the thinkpads I have used could benefit from the brightness turned up a notch on their LCDs. However, I shouldn't complain too much as it is more bright then the other two laptops I have personally owned (a Compaq and HP) Overall, I would say (just like many things) it is a personal issue.

npish · #16 Post by **npish** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:14 am

dsalyers wrote: Overall, I would say (just like many things) it is a personal issue.

this relates to my primary question; if it's really just a personal issue, and not some sort of objective, variable quality of the product, then it's a waste of time for me--or anyone else--to request a replacement;

I will say for the record--as others have stated-- that color-wise, the FV display is simply amazing; all other LCDs look dull and lifeless by comparison;

WPWoodJr · #17 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:54 pm

npish wrote:I would be curious to hear from someone who is/has been in a position to look at multiple panels and see if the quality of the coating is consistent; I would also be curious for those who seem to NOT experience this issue to take a look at a 15" MacBook Pro and see if they notice anything....I took a look at one at CompUSA and, as discussed on numerous MBP forums, the surface coating quality is best described as exhibiting "noise"-- ie. like applying a noise filter in Photoshop...

I've seen 2 LG Flexviews (T60 and T60p) and both were gorgeous. The T60p was slightly redder than the T60. I also saw a 15" MBP and its screen was very nice but too blue and not great viewing angle. I didn't see any sparkling so I guess I'm not sensitive to it?

#18 Post by **archer6** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:32 pm

npish wrote:From all of these threads noting the "sparkle" or grainy coating issue on the 15" Flexviews, the disagreement surrounding its actual existence is very interesting/troubling to me....this leads to the conclusion that--assuming we're all talking about these LG versions--either (1) this issue varies in extent from panel to panel, or (2) some people are sensitive to it while others aren't;

I would be curious to hear from someone who is/has been in a position to look at multiple panels and see if the quality of the coating is consistent; I would also be curious for those who seem to NOT experience this issue to take a look at a 15" MacBook Pro and see if they notice anything....I took a look at one at CompUSA and, as discussed on numerous MBP forums, the surface coating quality is best described as exhibiting "noise"-- ie. like applying a noise filter in Photoshop...

I am going to be very candid here. I'm not arguing, or challenging or disrespecting anyones post.

However I will say this. I have been a long time member of this forum. I personally have a decade of experience having owned a very large number of new thinkpads as I tend to upgrade at 10 month intervals, on a continuing basis each year. I travel worldwide and the ThinkPad is my main and only computer. Plus I carry an identical model as a backup in the event that my primary machine is stolen or damaged. In addition, the list of ThinkPads in my signature below are just a small listing of my favorites over the years, all of which I still own. At any given time I always have a minum of four new current ThinkPads in my inventory as I enjoy having some choices such as the small X60s when I'm out on weekends. I carry a ThinkPad with me, at all times.

Then being very open minded and always looking for the nexts best product, I have purchased and tested most every brand of laptop made in the last 8 years, to include: Acer, Toshiba, Apple, Sharp, HP, Compaq, Asus, Averatec, Dell, Fujitsu, Gateway, Panasonic, Samsung and Sony. I'm not bragging, just a statement of fact. Just a statement to give you a bit of background regarding my laptop experience. I happen to be very interested in Laptops and therefore I've chosen to explore the different models and brands.

I have a 15 year old company that based on my personal preferences began to deploy ThinkPads exclusively company wide beginning with the T series. We are a scientific / technology company therefore we use very resource intensive design and computational software. Today we have over 1200 employess with at least 40% using the T60 models, most of which have the 15" IPS display. We have all the various mfgs as well from LG to the rest. Until recently on this forum I have never, ever heard of this concept of "Sparkles". Frankly this is NOT a technical term used to evaluate displays.

My vision is 20/20 and I have many engineers that are as picky as I am when it comes to display quality. As we all spend a lot of time in front of our ThinkPads.
I'm not sure, nor do I care what brought about this "concept" of sparkles, but I will say beyond question that this is a non issue. Period. The rate this thread is accellerating this concept, I find alarming.

I can say that if you are looking for a world class display, there are none finer than those used by Lenovo.

That said I also have 3 MacBookPros and I am very pro mac on a personal level. Yet the displays that apple is currently providing are not even close to the overall quality, brightness, clarity and color saturation of the ThinkPad displays. And as most of us know they are a lower resolution. It's not even an equal comparison. However I will say that the displays on the new Apple laptops are quite nice, even though they do not match up to the Lenovo displays.

So to those of you who may be "worried" about Lenovo's displays, I say rest assured and move on. You have nothing to worry about.

Daniel · #19 Post by **Daniel** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:33 pm

archer6 wrote:However I will say that the displays on the new Apple laptops are quite nice, even though they do not match up to the Lenovo displays.

So to those of you who may be "worried" about Lenovo's displays, I say rest assured and move on. You have nothing to worry about.

I beg to differ. The display on the normal MacBooks are horrible. Their viewing angles are so bad that if you aren't looking at the screen at the exact angle, it washes out. The only thing my Macbook display has over the display on my 3 year old T42P (which admittedly is not very good because it is not flexview/IPS) is brightness.

sb37 · #20 Post by **sb37** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:38 am

they may not be the greatest - but have you seen dell screen?

#21 Post by **archer6** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:33 am

Daniel wrote:
archer6 wrote:However I will say that the displays on the new Apple laptops are quite nice, even though they do not match up to the Lenovo displays. .
I beg to differ. The display on the normal MacBooks are horrible.

You simply missed my point, just because I did not choose to criticize Apple displays does not mean that I was suggesting that they were close competition for ThinkPad displays. All I said were they were quite nice, which they are.

If that encites you to label them horrible, I have an idea that:
1) Perhaps you do not even own one.
2) Have only taken a glance at one in the store,
3) Have a hatred for Macs
4) Have an anger issue
5) Enjoy bad mouthing products just for the fun of it.
6) May not even own a laptop of any brand
7) Have had no experience whatsoever with laptop displays

If you want horrible, just check out some of the displays on the other laptop brands like older Dells, Everex etc.

When I make a comparison or evaulation, it's always in context with like kind. Therefore when one puts the newest MacBook displays along side of the older PowerBook display there is indeed an improvement.

I have in my inventory, every PowerBook released since 1996, 1 White MacBook, 1 Black MacBook, and 3 MacBook Pros. So I know by basis of comparison with these machines side by side.

So in retrospect before you come out with such strong words and condemnation for the displays on "as you say the MacBook" you might want to be sure you know what you are talking about.

Cheers.....

#22 Post by **archer6** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:34 am

sb37 wrote:they may not be the greatest - but have you seen dell screen?

I agree with you, well said!

Cheers...

npish · #23 Post by **npish** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:37 pm

archer6 wrote:My vision is 20/20 and I have many engineers that are as picky as I am when it comes to display quality. As we all spend a lot of time in front of our ThinkPads.
I'm not sure, nor do I care what brought about this "concept" of sparkles, but I will say beyond question that this is a non issue. Period. The rate this thread is accellerating this concept, I find alarming.

I can say that if you are looking for a world class display, there are none finer than those used by Lenovo.

Thanks for your response, archer6; while I appreciate your confidence in and devotion to the Thinkpad brand, your assertion that this frequent observation on the part of many T60 Flexview owners is a "non-issue" does not make it so.

The issue at hand is not some sort of abstract "concept," but rather an observable, objective quality of the screen coating. I have extremely good eyesight--perhaps too good--and consequently I, too, can vouch for its presence (along with the rep at a local service center who looks at tons of Thinkpads day in and day out);

I personally would not use the term "sparkling" to describe this quality, as I agree that it's not exactly helpful in a diagnostic sense for comprehending the problem. It derives from the perceptible effect of the screen's anti-glare coating, pure and simple. The NEC IPS 19" monitor I'm looking at right now also has a perceptible "surface quality"--just like any display--but it seems more even and less obtrusive/noticeable than that of the LG/Philips Flexview LCD. As others have pointed out, it only really presents a disturbance in viewing lighter colors, when the "texture" of the coating is most perceptible. I've found the simplest way to observe this quality is to take a window containing lighter colors---like a web browser window displaying this forum, for example--and drag it around in circles on your desktop; you will notice the persistence of the physical surface coating "texture" of the LCD; BOTTOM LINE: the issue at hand is that this "texture" is more obtrusive than normal on this particular display.

This has nothing to do with color reproduction, refresh rates, viewing angles, etc. It is a coating problem that is most evident when reading black text on a white background, and it has certainly taken my eyes a great deal of adjustment.

As I have said before, my own ultimate question is whether or not this is a simply an inherent quality of these displays, or if it varies in extent among specific panels.

If this many people are observing and discussing this issue--and it is not only limited to Thinkpad Flexviews; take a look at some Mac forums re: 15" MBP's (here for example)--, it most certainly is not without merit.

WPWoodJr · #24 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:15 pm

I can see a persistent underpinning to the screen display when moving a white window around on the screen; I see this on my Dell 27" and my ViewSonic 20" screens too. Part of it is the "grid" of the LCD pixels, some of it may be from the coating; but it really doesn't bother me. My T42p with UXGA Flexview screen has it to a lesser extent, but this seems to be down to the smaller pixel size.

#25 Post by **archer6** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:33 pm

npish wrote:your assertion that this frequent observation on the part of many T60 Flexview owners is a "non-issue" does not make it so.

Thanks npish, for your extremely well written explanation of this situation. I happily stand corrected.

After reading your post, I now understand the concept of what is being discussed, and was able to observe this after reading your detailed report of what to look for and under what conditions. Because today was a light day for me, I chose to spend time researching this and walking around my building looking at all the displays of both ThinkPad (the majority) and about 23 desktop displays. The results were quite interesting. While I could see what is being discussed it was extremely minor, to almost unnoticeable on my personal ThinkPad. I chose to upgrade all of the ThinkPads for the engineers in my office shortly after I got my first T60p as I was very happy after putting it through it's paces.

Frankly, I like you, have been blessed with extremely good vision (which has it's advantages and disadvantages for me, especially since I tend to be so picky). Not until today did I notice any conditions such as this one we are discussing. I took a really close, careful, extended look and was able to see what you have called to my attention.

Now I'm wondering if this is a relatively new situation. The reason I say that is I have been away from this forum for a few months, as our business has experienced an extreme growth spurt. Prior to which I was on this forum nearly everyday, from just before the T60 series was announced, until we all began receiving ours. I continued for months afterwards to participate here and at that time I had plenty of company i.e. people like myself that tend to be obssesive over each little detail. This topic did not exist then, (at least on this forum) so I'm wondering if it's more prevalent in the newer displays.

Something that causes me to wonder about this is that all the IPS T60ps I purchased for the company were during Mar & Apr of 2006. Then recently I purhased another for a new employee and when I looked at it today the problem was very pronounced. I was shocked and that enabled me to get a clear understanding of what all the talk is about. Comparing the new machine I just purhased to the rest of our ThinkPads the difference is quite dramatic and much more noticeable, and objectionable on the new machine.

Now I plan to do even more research on the web as well as using other resources such as my fellow CEO's that run large scale businesses that also have huge numbers of computers. This will be a very interesting journey.

Again I thank you for your exemplary description, without it, I would still be questioning the issue and the extent of it.

Cheers.....

npish · #26 Post by **npish** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:21 pm

archer6 wrote:i.e. people like myself that tend to be obssesive over each little detail

no need to explain there, I returned 3 different laptops (!) before reaching the T60 as my "final destination"--and, honestly, I'm sometimes conflicted about the effect of these forums in heightening one's awareness of the minutia and "idiosyncrasies" of these machines to the point that it becomes problematic (but that's a subject for a different thread);

anyway, regarding the question at hand, given that you have so many machines to compare, I would be *extremely* interested in the results of your research; I bought my T60 at the end of Dec '06/beginning of Jan '07, and it would be rather significant if this quality is only noticeable in a group of machines shipped within/after a certain period.

now here's a question: in looking at the displays that you've already compared, are these all Flexview LCDs? If so, is it possible to determine the manufacturer of each, i.e. Boe-Hydis or LG/Phillips? My sense is that people have only complained of the effect on the latter brand, but perhaps not; even more interesting would be whether only a *subset* of the LG/Philips displays seem to be affected...

during my visit to the Lenovo/IBM service center, we had my Flexview display posed next to a non-IPS variant, and the coating texture was *very* noticeable in the former (text on the non-Flexview appeared "sharper" in effect)......of course, to be fair, other than that, the Flexview display made mince meat of the other in terms of color, viewing angles, etc.

Please do share your findings, as I greatly appreciate your renewed attention to this issue;

WPWoodJr · #27 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:11 pm

archer6 wrote:Now I'm wondering if this is a relatively new situation. ...

Something that causes me to wonder about this is that all the IPS T60ps I purchased for the company were during Mar & Apr of 2006. Then recently I purhased another for a new employee and when I looked at it today the problem was very pronounced. I was shocked and that enabled me to get a clear understanding of what all the talk is about. Comparing the new machine I just purhased to the rest of our ThinkPads the difference is quite dramatic and much more noticeable, and objectionable on the new machine.

I guess I don't understand this because I bought my machine at the beginning of January 2007 and I am not seeing any particular issue with it. Could you please describe in more detail what makes the screen so much worse that your new employee has?

sb37 · #28 Post by **sb37** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:05 pm

Any results in your investigation yet, archer6? Thanks again for doing this.

I did a little more research on Hydis vs LG screens. It seems that the Hydis screens are UXGA but use AFFS technology (one type of post-IPS technology) and are 6-bit, whereas the LG-Philips screens are SXGA+ but use S-IPS, a newer technology, and are 8-bit. Does this seem right to everyone?

#29 Post by **dr_st** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:41 pm

sb37 wrote:I did a little more research on Hydis vs LG screens. It seems that the Hydis screens are UXGA but use AFFS technology (one type of post-IPS technology) and are 6-bit, whereas the LG-Philips screens are SXGA+ but use S-IPS, a newer technology, and are 8-bit. Does this seem right to everyone?

No. As far as I know, the LG panels used for laptops are plain IPS, and are 6-bit too. I don't know of _any_ 8-bit laptop screen.

WPWoodJr · #30 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:58 pm

I think the LG Flexviews are S-IPS too from my reading somewhere.

flexview and eye strain

flexview and eye strain

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