To Lenovo: Still unfixed common and reproducable X300 proble

Message

vpn-user · #1 Post by **vpn-user** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:15 am

Lenovo, following problems with the X300 are still unsolved, ordered by most annoying first. PLEASE FIX THESE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE! The X300 is an EXTREMELY expensive Notebook. These problems ARE NOT ACCEPPTABLE for a Notebook of that price!!!

All these problems mentioned below apply to Windows Vista Business x86-32, I don' t know about other OS because thats what I use.

1. Tapping using the TOUCHPAD (Trackpoint and buttons work) does not always work as expected. Sometimes you have to tap twice to produce a single click because a single tap is not always recognized as such. This also depends on the used application.

No fix available yet.

Workaround: Use the buttons. Not accepptable!

2. "Scroll by x lines" using mousewheel (Setting in control panel -> mouse -> wheel) always gets reset to "1" when scroling using the touchpad. This is quite annoying considering the fact that people use both, Touchpad when only mobile or a mouse when possible. This slows down scrolling via the mouse EXTREMELY.

Easy to reproduce: Set it to 3 (Windows default and a good value IMHO) and apply. Then scroll in any application using the touchpad. Go back to the setting (re-open control panel -> mouse) and it will show that it has been reset to 1. Note: Changing this setting only applies to applications that have been started AFTER changing the setting.

No fix available.

Workaround: Always reset to 3 after using the touchpad. Not accepptable!

3. Fan is not fairly adjusted. Its okay for a notebook to make use of is fan. But the way the X300 does this is NOT ACCEPPTABLE! When the fan kicks in, it immediately accelerates to around 5000rpm which makes a very loud "jet" noise. There are more rpm speedlevels needed. Its okay if the fan is running more constantly but at a lower and quieter level.

No fix available.

Workaround: Configure fan behaviour using TPFanControl to kick in at 60°C at lowest level (2000rpm which is level 2) and accelerate to 5000rpm at 70°C which is level 6. Of course this causes the X300 becoming more hot than with default behaviour, but it is really quiet. Silence is a MUST for business users!

4. Fingerprint sensor somestimes does not work right away after resuming from standby oder hibernate.

No fix available yet. At least none that really solves the problem for good.

Workaround: Wait about 30 seconds and retry. If fingerprint sensor still not working, youre doomed to use manual login using password. Not accepptable!

This has been reported and helps but problem still rarely occurs: Apply this Patch and uncheck "Allow the computer to turn off this device to save power" at the fingerprint device properties in device manager. You may also try UPEKs more recent generic driver from here (Install via device manager for the fingerprint device).

5. Sometimes the Sierra Wireless MC8775 HSDPA Module does not reconnect properly after resuming from standby or hibernate. Also activating "USB selective suspend" (active by default) in power manager causes packet loss and connection stallings.

No fix available yet.

Workaround: Disable and re-enable the card using FN+F5. Then re-apply the profile. Disable USB selective suspend in power manager.

This helps: Apply Sierra Wireless Power Management Patch and my modded version of the Sierra Wireless generic driver which is more recent.

6. Windows Boot hangs when Power Scheme in BIOS is set to Adaptive every now and then. Sometimes it boots right away, sometimes it just hangs on Vistas Bootloading-bar (it shimmers softly through, not fully visible and does not move).

No fix available yet. At least not officially from Lenovo.

Workaround: Set Power Scheme in BIOS to "Max Performance". This is a BIOS problem.

7. This problem applies to all ThinkPad models: Access Connections is BROKEN. After using it for a while, a few standbys and resumes, reboots etc., it stops roaming on its own. You then always have to select and apply the profiles manually. I know this problem was supposed to be fixed by several updates in the past, but none of them ever actually fixed it. Please consider a complete rewrite of the roaming code, it just does not work.

This has been fixed in Access Connections v5.02, at least for me on Vista x86-32. But this version introduces a new problem: Crashes when applying profiles when custom proxy settings are defined. I use Firefox 3.0.1 btw.Unchecking custom proxy settings in Access Connections works around this, but thats not nice.

I will this thread updated when updates or fixes that actually work are available.

billbob · #2 Post by **billbob** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:17 pm

true, plus on top of that have some weird issue with random freeze, mostly when downloading something through wireless

Changed Intel wifi driver to last one but does not help, killed lenovo power managlent software, does not help either.
i have last bios, memory was tested with memtest, no way to understand.

i am suspicious now towards acrobat 8 pro
will do some testing in this direction

H1 · #3 Post by H1 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:26 pm

vpn-user wrote:4. Fingerprint sensor somestimes does not work right away after resuming from standby oder hibernate.

I haven't seen this after downloading the latest drivers from the manufacturer: http://www.upek.com/support/downloads/d ... indows.asp. Of course, the problem might still exist.

vpn-user wrote:This helps: Apply Sierra Wireless Power Management Patch and my modded version of the Sierra Wireless generic driver which is more recent.

Any downsides to using the modded driver with Lenovo MC8775? All features continue to be available?

vpn-user · #4 Post by **vpn-user** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:18 am

H1 wrote:Any downsides to using the modded driver with Lenovo MC8775? All features continue to be available?

A possible downside could be that sometimes the reception icon of Access Connections shows a disconnected icon while still connected. But perhaps this also happens with Lenovos driver, didnt check that.

All features remain intact. No other downsides so far.

vpn-user · #5 Post by **vpn-user** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:21 am

billbob wrote:true, plus on top of that have some weird issue with random freeze, mostly when downloading something through wireless

Your memory might be okay but Windows x86-32 is not when at 4GB of RAM. Windows will make use of its PAE Kernel then. PAE is still very buggy, not only on Windows but on other OS including Linux as well.

You're on the safe side here to stay with 3GB of RAM when using a 32Bit OS.

SHoTTa35 · #6 Post by **SHoTTa35** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:50 am

as for number 6, i'm not sure what's going on there either:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 140#418140

that's on a Thinkpad T60. Vista doesn't boot if the system is hot it seems. If it's on AC and you were using it and then rebooted (still on AC) it wont boot up unless you plug out the AC adapter or wait a bit for it to cool.

vpn-user · #7 Post by **vpn-user** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:56 am

SHoTTa35 wrote:as for number 6, i'm not sure what's going on there either:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 140#418140
that's on a Thinkpad T60. Vista doesn't boot if the system is hot it seems. If it's on AC and you were using it and then rebooted (still on AC) it wont boot up unless you plug out the AC adapter or wait a bit for it to cool.

The workaround I added to number 6 works fine. It also does not eat more battery because as soon as Windows has booted, the OS-PowerManagement takes over the BIOS PowerManagement. I can live with it, still Lenovo should fix that.

SHoTTa35 · #8 Post by **SHoTTa35** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:32 am

I know about the workaround and i posted mentioned that in my linked post. It only works when you have it in that mode but then the system runs hotter (fan spins more to keeps it cool) trying to keep it cool.

The reason for the thread in the first place was because of my system overheating and crashing. I checked the BIOS and noticed that it was set to Max performance so that's why i did that.

vpn-user · #9 Post by **vpn-user** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:59 am

SHoTTa35 wrote:I know about the workaround and i posted mentioned that in my linked post. It only works when you have it in that mode but then the system runs hotter (fan spins more to keeps it cool) trying to keep it cool.

The reason for the thread in the first place was because of my system overheating and crashing. I checked the BIOS and noticed that it was set to Max performance so that's why i did that.

No the system will not run hotter. At least not if you boot a decent OS which handles ACPI Power Management on its own. The setting in the BIOS only applies as long as no such OS has been booted. That means the setting only applies during bootup of the OS. That only a few seconds and does not cause your notebook to run hotter later on.

SHoTTa35 · #10 Post by **SHoTTa35** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:10 am

I know all recent versions of Windows manage the system via ACPI but Windows doesn't manage the fan in the system. For some reason, Windows with the Max performance (CPU/Thermal Management setting in the BIOS) heats up to the point where it still crashes just when installing or doing anything CPU intensive.

If you were to be installing Visa with MAX performance setting in the BIOS it crashes cuz of the intesive I/Os. I posted in that thread and others had no problems with either setting so it could just be a random bug between our systems. I'm sure what the exact cause is.

vpn-user · #11 Post by **vpn-user** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:15 am

SHoTTa35 wrote:I know all recent versions of Windows manage the system via ACPI but Windows doesn't manage the fan in the system. For some reason, Windows with the Max performance (CPU/Thermal Management setting in the BIOS) heats up to the point where it still crashes just when installing or doing anything CPU intensive.

If you were to be installing Visa with MAX performance setting in the BIOS it crashes cuz of the intesive I/Os. I posted in that thread and others had no problems with either setting so it could just be a random bug between our systems. I'm sure what the exact cause is.

Youre still wrong with your first point. The Fan CAN be controlled. Thats what Lenovo PowerManager does and what TPFanControl does. In Lenovo PowerManager, you can choose between two fan profiles, which actually influence Fan behaviour.

An intact system does NEVER overheat, even if always at Max Performance Setting and doing CPU and GPU intensive tasks. So there is something wrong with YOUR system hardware-wise that causes your crashes. What I describe in the original post is defenitely NOT caused by overheating anything.

SHoTTa35 · #12 Post by **SHoTTa35** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:40 am

Well yeah, even with older windows 98 systems that doesn't have ACPI you can control the fan in Windows, that wasn't the point. I was just talking about Windows itself not controlling the fan directly even if it does use ACPI (Windows NT 5.0 and higher).

You read the thread where i linked to another user with the X300 having the same issue there?

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=61541

Just changing the BIOS from Automatic to Battery Optimized/Max Performance are my temps jumps from:

CPU 48°C (0x78)
APS 36°C (0x79)
PCM 36°C (0x7a)
GPU 62°C (0x7b)
BAT 35°C (0x7c)
BAT 31°C (0x7e)
BUS 37°C (0xc0)
PCI 40°C (0xc1)
PWR 39°C (0xc2)

To:

CPU 69°C (0x78)
APS 42°C (0x79)
PCM 42°C (0x7a)
GPU 77°C (0x7b)
BAT 34°C (0x7c)
BAT 33°C (0x7e)
BUS 44°C (0xc0)
PCI 51°C (0xc1)
PWR 56°C (0xc2)

All i did was change the settings back to "default" in the BIOS and started up again.

Surely the system was designed to run properly even under maximum stresses but not the case all the time. I sent in the system (warranty service) and they replaced stuff and it's basically still the same "bug" as before but i think it's cuz of Vista. I haven't installed XP on this machine before so i can't say that specifically but there's something going on with it though. It's not just my system apparently. Needless to say, i'm sending it again to be working on.

(oh and i format just about every 3 weeks almost for the hell of it, i don't remember any of that happening when i got the system in December)

jflamm · #13 Post by **jflamm** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:05 pm

Even with latest Bios 1.05, plugging into left USB ports can freeze the machine (XP) so that a hard power-off is required. Not every time - but maybe 10-20% (guess). There is a problem here.

I have had 3 instances of the machine being deader than dead - no lights - even charger inserted does not indicate any lights. The solution was to remove both batteries (I have 6 cell and 3 cell) AND remove charger - then replace batteries. Maybe this was fixed in 1.05 - not sure - hasn't happened since ...

Love the machine - but feeling a bit like a beta tester ...

I needed a lightweight machine to program and cart everywhere - I wish it was better but I can't honestly point to another machine which is better (for me).

billbob · #14 Post by **billbob** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:36 pm

to vpn-user : you mean i should keep only 3G (1 x 2GB + 1 x 1GB) to avoid those issues instead of 2 x 2GB ?
never thought about that, will give it a try

vpn-user · #15 Post by **vpn-user** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:12 am

billbob wrote:to vpn-user : you mean i should keep only 3G (1 x 2GB + 1 x 1GB) to avoid those issues instead of 2 x 2GB ?
never thought about that, will give it a try

Yes. But just for testing purposes, you can try with only one of your two 2GB modules to see if the machine gets stable if you already sold your two 1GB modules that came with the ThinkPad (My X300 came with 2x1GB). Give that test a chance for some days to see if it is more stable that way.

H1 · #16 Post by H1 » Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:34 am

I don't have problems with 4 GB & 32-bit Vista. I have 4 GB in my desktop and X300 - both are stable.

#17 Post by **erik** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:04 am

same here - no problems at all with 4GB and server 2008 32-bit.

vpn-user · #18 Post by **vpn-user** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:13 am

I wonder why so many people use an 32Bit OS with 4GB while they can actually use only 3GB at all?

#19 Post by **erik** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:32 am

vpn-user wrote:I wonder why so many people use an 32Bit OS with 4GB while they can actually use only 3GB at all?

server 2008 enterprise x86 (which i'm using) can address up to 64GB.

vpn-user · #20 Post by **vpn-user** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:41 am

erik wrote:
vpn-user wrote:I wonder why so many people use an 32Bit OS with 4GB while they can actually use only 3GB at all?
server 2008 enterprise x86 (which i'm using) can address up to 64GB.

Dont want to argue on this but I am right. You might read on here: http://blogs.msdn.com/dcook/archive/200 ... emory.aspx

Found an even better explanation which also covers Server OS here: http://blogs.msdn.com/hiltonl/archive/2 ... oblem.aspx

This is a hardware limitation which can be overcome using PAE.

Besides: Windows is unable to assign more than 2GB per process when on 32Bit.

Still, you use the Server OS. OK, that supports up to 64GB. But you still loose around 1GB when only 4GB inserted. Why? Because the video memory address mapping and further system compontents also need to be addressed.

#21 Post by **erik** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:32 am

vpn-user wrote:Still, you use the Server OS. OK, that supports up to 64GB. But you still loose around 1GB when only 4GB inserted. Why? Because the video memory address mapping and further system compontents also need to be addressed.

server 2008 x86 is a 36-bit OS and supports memory hoisting. the PM965 chipset also supports memory hoisting. with 4GB installed i get all 4GB available. the OS and system components use around 1.15GB of this, leaving me with 2.85GB available for applications. with a 32-bit OS, only about 1.85GB would be available for applications.

with that said, when it comes to having 4GB in a system, server 2008 x64 and server 2008 x86 have the exact same amount of addressable system memory available for applications. 32-bit OSes do not.

vpn-user · #22 Post by **vpn-user** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:35 am

*bump*

Just want to inform you that I've updated my modded version of Sierra Wireless Generic Driver for Lenovo from v2.1.6.0 to v2.2.2. See first post.

mmm · #23 Post by **mmm** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:46 am

What is the use of having/installing
ThinkVantage Active Protection System
if the X300 has an SSD ?

I don't get it.

vpn-user wrote:Lenovo, following problems with the X300 are still unsolved, ordered by most annoying first. PLEASE FIX THESE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE! The X300 is an EXTREMELY expensive Notebook. These problems ARE NOT ACCEPPTABLE for a Notebook of that price!!!

Exactly.
What is also not acceptable is that you don't even get a free upgrade to Vista x64 if it ships with 32 bit.
What is also unacceptable is the fact that you can't get Windows XP x64 support for it.

vpn-user · #24 Post by **vpn-user** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:06 am

mmm wrote:What is the use of having/installing
ThinkVantage Active Protection System
if the X300 has an SSD ?

I don't get it.

Erm I dont get it what this has to do with this topic.

Anyway no one forces you to install APS Software on your X300. I think its nice to still have the sensor, who knows perhaps some people put a normal HDD into their X300 to get more space? Yes there is a suitable 1.8" 120GB HDD available from Toshiba.

mmm wrote:
vpn-user wrote:Lenovo, following problems with the X300 are still unsolved, ordered by most annoying first. PLEASE FIX THESE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE! The X300 is an EXTREMELY expensive Notebook. These problems ARE NOT ACCEPPTABLE for a Notebook of that price!!!
Exactly.
What is also not acceptable is that you don't even get a free upgrade to Vista x64 if it ships with 32 bit.
What is also unacceptable is the fact that you can't get Windows XP x64 support for it.

NO vendor will support ANY OS on their devices. Neither does Lenovo.

Regarding Vista X86-64: Your 32Bit-License will also work for X86-64. Just get the media and use your key. Its quite understandable that Lenovo does not put every possible OS as additional Disc. NORMALLY you get ONE OS and only support for that one OS. Lenovos driver support is really nice IMHO, despite some bugs left (see 1st post).

Remember: X300 ships with XP Recovery Discs AS WELL! This is very rare and quite nice. Ususally the XP downgrade kit costs some extra money.

akao · #25 Post by **akao** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:21 pm

Hi,

I just noticed that there are quite a few vista hotfixes posted to the X300 download page. These are dated from May 2008, but I don't remember seeing them there earlier. Despite using the Lenovo System Update, Windows Update, and having SP1, there was at least one hotfix that I was missing (KB948278).

A lot of them have to do with standby and coming out of it. So perhaps these will address the problem for some.

Cheers.

mmm · #26 Post by **mmm** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:58 pm

What is also unacceptable is the idiotic placing of the important Control key. Why on earth would you put a different key in its position???

Is there a way to switch Ctrl and Fn key around?

vpn-user · #27 Post by **vpn-user** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:01 pm

mmm wrote:What is also unacceptable is the idiotic placing of the important Control key. Why on earth would you put a different key in its position???

Is there a way to switch Ctrl and Fn key around?

It has always been that way on ThinkPads and quite a large number of other Laptops as well and is REALLY not a problem of the X300. And it isn' t an issue at all.

mmm · #28 Post by **mmm** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:06 pm

vpn-user wrote:
mmm wrote:What is also unacceptable is the idiotic placing of the important Control key. Why on earth would you put a different key in its position???

Is there a way to switch Ctrl and Fn key around?
It has always been that way on ThinkPads and quite a large number of other Laptops as well and is REALLY not a problem of the X300. And it isn' t an issue at all.

Well obviously it is, or I wouldn't be posting about it. You thinkpad fanboys are crazy if you think this is NOT a problem.

Why would any user want a new button instead of the Ctrl key? You must really be completely insane to prefer that.
They should at least make it optional. If I would have known this beforehand, I would not have bought ANY thinkpad, ever.

vpn-user · #29 Post by **vpn-user** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:41 pm

mmm wrote:Well obviously it is, or I wouldn't be posting about it. You thinkpad fanboys are crazy if you think this is NOT a problem.

It is not a problem. At least not in general. I see this is your first ThinkPad. You may sell your X300 and buy a Mac and look for the CTRL Key. lol.

mmm wrote:Why would any user want a new button instead of the Ctrl key? You must really be completely insane to prefer that.

I don' t care for CTRL, I am not a hotkey-junky. I got used to its position. And no, I am not insane. You obviously, true.

mmm wrote:They should at least make it optional. If I would have known this beforehand, I would not have bought ANY thinkpad, ever.

You better inform yourself better before buying your next premium Laptop. There are hundreds of reviews, hi-res images of keyboard etc.

Really, still not an X300 issue and SPAM in this thread.

mmm · #30 Post by **mmm** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:23 am

I have informed myself, but like I wrote earlier: Those reviewers are thinkpad fanboys, and don't even mention all the x300's shortcomings.

Here's my list:

- Its screen is awful and ugly. It has a very strange color-gamut. It's too blue, it's too cold and unrealistic. It has bad blacks (if at all you could call them blacks), a lot of weird screen bleed. It has very low contrasts. It has the infamous door-effect i.e. the panel shines when it shouldn't even shine. Its 'perfect' viewing angle is very small. You have to set it way too bright for a decent contrast.

- Drivers for its hardware suck, in general. Lenovo is terribly slow in updating.

- The fan is absurdly noisy for a laptop this expensive. I have a Dell at work with about 4 times the CPU power which is completely silent compared to the x300. That's weird and unacceptable in a time like this, to use hardware this cheap on a laptop in this pricerange.

- The CPU is slower than that of most other current laptops.

- The GPS is useless if you don't get it. I was told the x300 had a built-in GPS feature, and it wasn't on my unit.

- The SSD isn't as fast as one would expect it to be.

- Hybernate and fingerprint reader are buggy in vista.

- Vista sucks, in general. I'd have preferred if they'd ship it with Windows XP x64 and AHCI compatible setup disk.

- The Fn (Function blue) and Ctrl key should be the other way around. Really annoying if you're used to normal IBM-layout. It's obvious this isn't IBM design.

- The X300 is badly advertised and reviewed. The reviews are full of lies, probably paid for by lenovo.

To Lenovo: Still unfixed common and reproducable X300 proble

To Lenovo: Still unfixed common and reproducable X300 proble

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