Thinkpads Forum

Posted: **Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:11 pm**

Admin should consider updating rules on this post if it gets popular, but for now lets limit this to misrepresented items, not disputes about conditions or anything subjective.

Today I filed a claim with ebay over a thinkpad battery. It was so obviously fake that I got a full refund within hours and they didn't even ask me to return the battery.

Ebay Seller: hondaelement

http://myworld.ebay.com/hondaelement/?_ ... 4340.l2559

I trusted the auction was legit because of his 100% feedback, but he refused return even after I sent him proof the battery was fake. To his credit, he did offer me a partial refund of $10, but if I wanted a cheap generic battery, I'd buy one from a major retailer like amazon, where I'd have some means to follow up if it was dangerously unsafe or something and I'm not sure I'd even want to risk my laptop by installing this. The only generics I ever use have legitimate brand names on them and come with a real warranty. This battery's only English writing says "Replace Thinkpad", obviously the manufacturer couldn't even find someone who spoke English.

I did leave negative feedback to warn others (only the second time I've ever done that in seven years), but it appears to have been removed. I'm inquiring about how it was removed with ebay, but I felt I'd post a warning here and after talking with Bill, a topic dedicated to scams seemed like a good addition to the negative feedback topic.

The photos I sent to ebay pretty much speak for themselves, so you can have a look...

Terms of Auction stated "new unopened in original packaging". It came in a cube shaped box, not even a battery box and was in an already opened static bag with no documentation at all. It also lists the manufacture as Lenovo, but the actual battery doesn't have any manufacturer name in English (I can't read the chinese writing, but suspect it's just the same generic info posted in several other languages).

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/909/ba ... nterms.jpg

Here is the original battery my laptop shipped with, so you can see what a real one looks like.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/1803/b ... lenovo.jpg

Here is the Photo of the battery from the auction showing a genuine Lenovo battery, same exact battery as my original.

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5575 ... uction.jpg

Here is the battery I received.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6950 ... cheapc.jpg

My request for settlement of dispute was refund and return shipping.

Ebay dispute won and case closed within 4 hours, full refund given and return of item wasn't even required.

Definite candidate for Hall of Shame!!!

Posted: **Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:21 pm**

Having dealt with my fair share of eBay sellers, there's several warnings that I can see about this auction: http://www.ebay.com/itm/130601697027 (link will probably die in a month or so)

"Laptop Battery for Lenovo..." auction title; many sellers of non-genuine batteries will say "FOR" Lenovo/IBM and not put "genuine" or "original" in the title (or description).
Stock photo; if the seller really has what's advertised and they are serious about the authenticity of the item, they would (should) take time to photograph it on a desk or inside the original IBM or Lenovo packaging.
"Battery Brand: Lenovo"; eBay has a very short list of manufacturer choices when listing a laptop battery. If the seller doesn't bother to enter their own description, then they'll take the path of least resistance. In other words, you really shouldn't rely on this part of the auction description (at least I don't).
"No return or exchanges" = buy only if you are willing to get the short end of the stick or deal with eBay/PayPal in getting a refund.
"This laptop battery is 100% compatible..."; again, no indication that this is a genuine Lenovo battery (other than what's in the Battery Brand field).
No FRU of the battery being sold is listed, only what it's "compatible" with.

I have had no dealings with this seller and am not attempting to speak for him/her but IMO there were significant red flags.

On a sort-of related note, here's one Thinkpad battery auction I recently participated in: http://www.ebay.com/itm/260875829395

40Y7003 ORIGINAL LENOVO 2011 D/C FACTORY SEALED for $1 Buy-it-Now (with FREE shipping!). Did I really expect to get five brand new genuine X60 batteries for less than what it would cost to ship just one of them? Of course not, but it was fun to imagine what the seller was going to do

(seller requested cancellation saying, "I am working with and learning new listing software"

).

Posted: **Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:33 pm**

I had a similar situation happen to me. I listed a Blu-ray on eBay and accidentally listed the shipping cost, $3, as the price. It sold in like three minutes. The buyer was a little peeved, but did allow me to cancel.

I bought a battery that had the picture of a genuine ThinkPad battery and the seller said it was genuine in the description, but was not. I didn't even have to ship it back, which was good because it was from HK.

I bought a ThinkPad that was supposed to be like new, but looked like it came from a digital sweatshop. It was covered in cigarette smoke and the hinge was busted.

Having said that, I've had some great deals on ebay too. I bough a R60 three and half years ago for $220. It was only missing the hard drive and still had two years of warranty. It looked new.

My X200t came from eBay too. It looked brand new and had 2 years and 10 months of warranty including accidental. It should have cost $1,500, but I got it for a little over $800.

Posted: **Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:41 pm**

All I can say is that, unless I'm specifically looking for a generic, I always put the "-for" command in the search field when I'm looking for something.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:41 am**

Thanks for the pointers, I've come to trust most usa sellers with perfect feedback and figured the price was great, why not grab it. If it was even a legitimate clone, I would have considered just keeping it, but it's completely unbranded as far as I can tell, and isn't even new, also as far as I can tell. If the seller was in asia or something, I would have insisted on some kind of assurance first, but since it was a photo of a real battery, perfect feedback, the person was only selling one, it seems credible that they simply had a battery they didn't need and wanted a quick sale.

I went from view to click in less then 2 mins because I figured it wouldn't be there if I waited on a reply asking questions and demanding proof.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:44 am**

TuuS wrote:since it was a photo of a real battery, perfect feedback, the person was only selling one, it seems credible that they simply had a battery they didn't need and wanted a quick sale.

With that said, there are quite a few things in the description of the auction you posted (http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/909/ba ... nterms.jpg) that suggest it is not a genuine Lenovo battery:
"100% compatible with original battery specifications" - just the word "compatible" rings bells of alarm.
"Batteries are in high-grade quality" - Usually not something you would see mentioned on a genuine battery.
"Uses Samsung Cell" - definitely not genuine Lenovo (to date I have not seen a single Samsung-branded Lenovo battery)

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:11 am**

why get the Boston Power battery for the T60 and T61, they got three years warranty.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:56 am**

lead_org wrote:why get the Boston Power battery for the T60 and T61, they got three years warranty.

I came across this listing, wasn't specifically looking for this battery and it seemed that for the price, the seller was risking a lot more (reputation) then the buyer was (price), so it seemed worth the risk.

Maybe I'm to trusting, but I just can't imagine someone trying so hard to cover up what it is they are selling and if it really was the battery pictured, I know it could sell any second, so I just grabbed it.

As for the Boston Power, you should post some links, I'm sure many of us would like inexpensive alternatives for older laptops. I don't mind paying 50-100 dollars for a battery if it's a really good laptop, but in this case, it's for a unit that's only job is running as a bittorrent server, so I just wanted the battery to keep it up and running if power should fail. The original battery is down to about 12% of original cap if my memory serves, but it's still enough to do it's job as long as the power doesn't go off for long.

Anyway, this topic is intended for us to share our experiences with sellers, If anyone wants to post a seller to beware of, we could try linking them alphabetically in my initial post so this could become a valuable resource. It seems ebay's feedback system is worthless being this seller managed to get my feedback removed somehow.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:32 pm**

TuuS wrote:It seems ebay's feedback system is worthless being this seller managed to get my feedback removed somehow.

Would you mind sharing the exact wording of the Feedback comment you (attempted) to leave? Not implying there was anything wrong with your comments. Like you and many others I reluctantly purchase items from Ebay but would love to find a safer alternative. Trust me, I'm no fan of Ebay management and their sometimes arbitrary enforcement of policies. So just curious what happened in this case. BTW, did they ever email you and inform you that your Feedback had been removed?

Daniel.

For reference, here is Ebay's official Feedback policy as of 11/28/11 taken directly from their help page here: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/fee ... moval.html and here: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/ina ... ments.html

In general, we'll only remove Feedback in a few exceptional cases, such as when the Feedback contains inappropriate language.

If you're not happy with the Feedback you received, you have a few options:

In some cases, you can ask buyers to revise their Feedback. This works well if the buyer left the Feedback by mistake, or if you resolved the issue
You can reply to the Feedback to share your side of the story.
If the buyer left Feedback that's not allowed, or is misusing the Feedback system, report the problem to us.

Policy overview

There are some situations when eBay might remove or adjust Feedback ratings or comments.

If you're a buyer and you want to change negative or neutral Feedback you left for a seller, you can't do it yourself. Instead, the seller must request it. Please direct the seller to our page on requesting Feedback revisions from buyers. The seller may then be able to request a Feedback revision from you.
What are the guidelines?

eBay may remove or adjust Feedback ratings or comments if:

The Feedback contains inappropriate comments, or violates one of our Feedback policies.

At the time the item ended or the Feedback was left, either member participating in the transaction was unable to form a legally binding contract.

Either member provided eBay with an email address that is invalid, and that member could not be contacted at the time of the transaction. See our false or missing contact information policy.

A buyer mistakenly leaves negative or neutral Feedback for the wrong seller, informs eBay of the error, and has left the same Feedback for the intended seller.

A member is suspended by eBay for behavior that we've determined is malicious enough to warrant removing all the negative and neutral Feedback they've left for sellers. Note: If a member is suspended within 90 days of registration, all Feedback left by that member is removed.

eBay is provided with a valid court order requesting Feedback removal.

A buyer fails to respond to a reminder about an unpaid item and the unpaid item is recorded on their account.

A buyer's communication within the Resolution Center undermines the purpose of the unpaid item process and the eBay Feedback system. For example, if a buyer responds to an unpaid item reminder with nonsense text simply to retain the ability to leave Feedback for a seller.

eBay determines at a later date that the seller met the requirements for an automatic 5-star detailed seller rating for the shipping and handling charges category. In these instances, we may adjust the rating to 5 stars.

A buyer leaves a seller negative or neutral Feedback that refers to customs delays or customs fees (see below).

(And here is their definition of inappropriate comments):

What are the guidelines?

Allowed

While insulting language, like "fraud," "liar," "cheater," "scam artist," or "con man," is strongly discouraged, Feedback containing such language won't be removed unless it also contains some type of content that isn't allowed.

Not allowed

We don't allow Feedback comments that contain:

Links or scripts

References to eBay or PayPal investigations

Negative statements left for a buyer that conflict with the positive rating

Personally identifying information about another member, including real name, address, phone number, or email address

Political, religious, or social commentary rather than a genuine comment about the transaction

Comments, replies, or follow-ups that reference a separate transaction

Profane, vulgar, obscene, or racist language, or adult material

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:26 pm**

I called ebay to ask why the feedback was removed and some lady with such a strong accent I could barely understand her (India perhaps) put me on hold until the connection was finally lost. I didn't care to waste more time, but the comment wasn't anything foul or obscene, simply something like.

photos and description of Lenovo battery, Sent cheap chinese fake

I don't remember the exact words, but I'm guessing ebay didn't want to lose income from either of us. I've done thousands of dollars of business with them and perhaps they figured by finding in my favor so quickly, that I wouldn't care about the feedback being removed. I left it to warn others because this person obviously knew they were concealing the fact that the battery wasn't a lenovo, but also had no brand name at all. I've used generics before, some have worked very well, others have been disappointing, but never have I seen one that says "replace thinkpad" on it lol maybe it's a warning that you'll need to replace your thinkpad if your dumb enough to insert this battery in it lol

My guess is they will claim they don't know how the feedback was removed, but I got my money back and I have a battery sitting here... not sure if I'm going to throw it in the trash or what... but I definitely will not put it in a valuable laptop.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:15 pm**

Here is another battery auction...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 500wt_1264

I really don't know what a real ultrabay slim battery looks like. The only one's I own are ultrabay2000 and are made by ibm.

I decided not to bid on this one because the photo didn't show any Lenovo brand name, and there is a lot of wording that could be taken either way, like what does "original" mean in the title... I really wish ebay would require sellers to clearly list it as a "yes" or "no" choice to it being manufactured by lenovo.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:15 pm**

i bought a $5 indian gold coin last year (2010) and when i got it it showed that it had had a ring soldered (gold soldered) to the edge and thereafter very carefully removed...
while this does not affect the buillion value it sure does the numismatic value..
when i communicated with the seller we could not agree on a fair resolution..
when i left neg feedback he got ebay to remove the neg feedback..
there was nothing i could do..

SO, 100% positive feedback at ebay is not all that great..

for me and that $5 indian it is now way more valuable due to the increased gold price..

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:52 pm**

an undisclosed repaired coin is a major scam. I collect coins too, and even cleaning a coin will seriously harm it's value, but repairing one is never acceptable. There are some coin grading service that will grade repaired coins. They slab them into specially colored cases to show they are "problem" coins, but the purpose is to verify that it actually is a real coin that was repaired, not (for example) a common date coin that has been altered to appear to be a rare one.

One common scam people used to do is take a 1916 dime minted in philadelphia and a different year minted in denver (the denver has a small "D" on the reverse), then mill the obverse off of one and the reverse off the other, then solder the two halves together making what appears to be a 1916-D dime

In this condition the dime would be worth thousands of dollars, but without the "D" it's just another common date.

I think if a seller threatens to stop using ebay, they do remove feedback despite their claims not to. Ebay really screwed up since the beginning, if they had done it like amazon where all feedback is anon, then we'd get a real way of knowing what sellers we can trust, but the way it's run now, a lot of nasty drama can stir up when you resort to feedback.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:13 pm**

Here's another to look out for, he listed a T2400 as core 2 duo

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 612wt_1018

ebay name: itlowprices

Edit: I just got a "thank you" from hondaelement. Seems he thinks I removed the neg feedback.

Thanks for taking the negitive feedback off for me. If you ever need any future sales a discount will be given. Thank you again.

- hondaelement

Not sure what to think now lol, but I'm inclined to let it go, I don't need or want any drama, I'm just happy it's over.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:31 pm**

While I agree that the seller definitely should have listed the item more accurately, there were a few hints that should've indicated it's not genuine.

-Nowhere on the page does it say OEM or Genuine
-The price
-The very first sentence is "This laptop battery is 100% compatible with the original battery specifications."

The seller should not have listed the brand as Lenovo or used a picture of a genuine battery, but other than that the listing is fine.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:49 pm**

TuuS wrote:Here's another to look out for, he listed a T2400 as core 2 duo

That's 99% an honest mistake.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:52 am**

Atreides wrote:While I agree that the seller definitely should have listed the item more accurately, there were a few hints that should've indicated it's not genuine.

-Nowhere on the page does it say OEM or Genuine
-The price
-The very first sentence is "This laptop battery is 100% compatible with the original battery specifications."

The seller should not have listed the brand as Lenovo or used a picture of a genuine battery, but other than that the listing is fine.

I think it's the sellers responsibility to disclose if something is a fake, clone, copy, generic BOLDLY, not the reverse that they have to boldly declare it to NOT be fake. Perhaps the overwhelming number of these on ebay has led us to just accept this, but if I was to extend this logic, then would it be ok to sell a rolex making no mention that it's fake except for some fine print that says it's "compatible".

Regarding the price, I don't think it's common, but it's also not unusual for someone to offer a real lenovo battery for $25. Many people may have one that was never used and their laptop died, so they just want a quick sale to get rid of it because they can't use it. I've seen the lenovo battery sell for $40-50, so buying one new, but without the original lenovo warranty for 25 is surely not a price that's to cheap to believe.

One other important bit of info your overlooking too. When confronted with photos proving they sold a fake, the seller refused a refund.

That is the root of the problem. If it really was a mistake on their part, they would be willing to make good on it.

Anyway, this has gone way off topic. It was intended to be a list of sellers that are listing/selling thinkpad items improperly, not a long drawn out discussion about one specific ad. If a staff member wants to clean up the topic and return it to what it was intended to be (and posted with approval of forum owner), then please do, until then I'm going to close this topic because it's gone way off topic.

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Ebay Hall of Shame (scams & misrepresenting thinkpads)

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