LF: Gaming Laptop

[emtee3511]

Almost all my thinkpads are from our Marketplace -- usually if I get one from eBay, I check here for ram/ssd upgrades. I need help finding a used laptop for a kid at my church. Over the years, I have purchased machines on the Forum, played with them for awhile, upgraded ram/hdd-ssd, and then passed them on to a family or kid at church, or sometimes a neighbor kid. Nothing fancy, but for a kid without a laptop, it's a BIG deal

So there's one teenager at my church who was using an X61 I passed on to him, and then a T400 with Windows 8, which I gave him after he passed his X61 down to his little sister. Problem is he's a typical teen who wants to "game" on his machine, and The T400 (which has 8gb ram and 160gb ssd) apparently stalls video. I know VERY little about gaming or video cards, but google tells me I need to find a machine with a fast video card. Is that correct?

I need suggestions of which brand/model I need to look for which will 'game' for the kid -- he will return the T400 to me if I can find him a gaming machine to trade. Because of my pocketbook limitations, I am looking for a T400/T410 era machine -- but I haven't a clue what brand/model to look for/choose. I have googled, but there's so much information out there, and I am starting a point -0- and a little overwhelmed.

I would greatly appreciate any input from Forum members regarding what machine I should look for and also price range I should expect. If anyone has a machine available for sale that would fit this teen's wishes, please shoot me a pm -- this is my last ditch effort to find him a machine, and any advice will be greatly appreciated, especially if it leads to a Forum machine

[RealBlackStuff]

YGPM

[ZaZ]

Gaming is sort of a wide path. You can spend a lot of money for a top end machine or look for a bargain on the low end for not much money. Much will depend on they type of games played and how good they want the graphics to be. You can probably get a low cost HP, Acer, Dell that will perform adequately. ThinkPads aren't really gearded toward gaming. Probably the last one with a decent gaming GPU was the T500 with the 3650, though it's a bit long in the tooth. Again, much depends on the budget and need.

[RealBlackStuff]

How about T400 with switchable ATI HD3470 graphics, T9600 (2.8GHz) CPU and WXGA+ LED (1440x900)?

[emtee3511]

Hi RBS -- Thanks so much for the suggestion. Regarding the ATI HD3470, I found this:

The performance of the card can be suited for modest casual gamers. Demanding games like Crysis run only with very low details and resolution.
Compared to the desktop HD 3470, the Mobility version has a lower core clock speed and should perform a bit better than the desktop HD 3450.
Regarding the World in Conflict: 1024x768, low: 42 fps -> fully playable
Company of Heroes: 1024x768, high/med: 10-26 fps -> playable
FIFA 07: 800x600, Demo default: 55-61 fps -> fully playable
Gothic 3: 1024x768, high: 6-15 fps -> not playable (playable with lower settings)
Medal of Honor Airborne: 1280x800, med Details: 11-17 fps --> not playable (playable with lower settings)
Supreme Commander: 1024x768, high Details: 9-15 fps ->not playable (playable with lower settings)
Call of Duty 4: 1280x800, med Details: 5-16 fps -> not playable (playable with lower settings)
F.E.A.R.: 800x600, med Details: 42 fps -> fully playable
Quake 3 Arena: 1024x768, high Details: 230 fps -> fully playable

Demanding games are only playable in low settings with the HD 3470. Older games or less demanding ones like Fifa 2007 are fully playable with visually pleasing details.


ZaZ, I agree that a ThinkPad may not be my best choice. Can anyone who is familiar with gaming comment on the above? I'm going to check with my "kid" to find out which games he wants to play. RBS's T400 is in my budget, but I don't want to make the trade and have the little gamer tell me it's not playing his games. I'll check back when I get a game list from him.

[TuuS]

I had just sold a very nice T410 with nVidia graphics, it was near mint condition too and I think the nVidia graphics is much better suited for gaming. The T61 series also had nVidia option but only the last few weeks of production had reliable gpu chips and those units can be more costly. Another option you might want to consider is one of the HP mobile workstations. I use a 17" model that has discrete (removeable) nVidia graphic card, Penryn cpu and a beautiful 1920x1200 screen with WVA (wide viewing angle) which is something thinkpads haven't offered since the T60 Flexview screens. This would be a nice budget gaming laptop but it's a huge difference going from an X61 (12") to a T400 (14") then a 17", but the FHD+ screen is amazing and the nVidia graphics would be ideal.

However you should really talk to this kid about his expectations. If he is expecting to run the latest games at the highest settings, then you would need something like an ASUS gaming laptop, Alienware or XPS laptop which generally range from $1000-3000 and up, and even at those prices many of them aren't impressive laptops IMO. However if the games you're looking to run worked on the x61 and t400, but you want something with a bit more performance then there are many good options available. My point is that the word "gaming" is subjective and if the kid is expecting something that will provide a world-class gaming experience, then you can plan on a big price tag attached to the laptop.

Also to add my dos centavos, I'd give some thought to what screen you want on this laptop. In my mind the gaming experience is a lot to do about screen quality not just graphic performance.

[emtee3511]

Thank you TuuS for your thoughts -- that's kinda what I was guessing, just wasn't sure. This teen is a really good kid, and he is very appreciative of his gift T400 -- he just wanted to know if I could 'soup' it up for him, and I'll have to tell him it's a no go. I appreciate very much everyone's input -- this Forum is the best

[ZaZ]

I don't know what you're looking to spend, but I believe Lenovo does make some decent gaming machines in the Y series IdeaPads. Checking the outlet for better pricing can help keep the pricing down.

[emtee3511]

I was hoping to find a bare bones used/refurb for under (or at) $300 -- I didn't have a clue what to look for, so I am grateful for the input. Don't think my budget will cover much more than window-shopping

[TuuS]

You could (in theory) do a board swap for a discrete T400 planar, that would be an improvement, or perhaps RBS would consider a trade deal to upgrade to his discrete model. Since you have a complete T400 already this would be an easy way to get more graphic power. Of course that brings us back to the question of how much benefit that can get you and I really don't have an answer because I don't know what games he wants to play nor do I have much experience gaming with the T400 ATI graphics system.

Selecting the right hardware for any application is complicated. I've had people tell me to "keep it simple", they don't need things like powerful gpu chips etc, but what they really meant by "keep it simple" is they wanted to be able to buy any of the latest games and have it run perfectly without doing any upgrades... so they actually didn't want the $200 laptop that would survive a nuclear blast and still be running a decade later, they wanted the ultra powerful one that was fast enough so they never have to see a video skip frames. This is how one persons definition of "simple" can drastically differ from another.

You could also look for a barebones T400 discrete model, although it would be nice if you can try both graphic systems and see the difference in actual use, but of course that isn't something that's easy to do. Actually the discrete models are switchable (intel/Ati), so you could run the games both ways to get an idea of the difference between them, but if you have only the Intel, it can be difficult to judge how it will react with ATI.

Also, check with the games software settings and see if hardware accel is enabled. Many times it will install as disabled on laptops with integrated graphics even if they support accel. The Intel isn't a bad system and you might be able to get better performance just by enabling the gpu. The first place to look would be the games website and see if your gpu is supported, if it is, look in their FAQs and/or support forum and see if others have any useful info to share. Some games run remarkably well with some of the Intel GPU chips while others seem to only like nVidia.

You can also consider the advanced docking station with an external GPU. I have one of these available if you want one, I don't have a lot of experience using them, but I know many members here do and some have stuffed some pretty powerful cards in them.

[Cigarguy]

Gaming and laptops is, IMO, an oxymoron. Unless you are willing to spend the $$. A cheap custom build desktop with a $200 GPU will easily out pace most so called "gaming" laptop. A cheap Lenovo mini desktop can be had for $100 with an E8400 CPU. Add a $200 GPU and you'll have an entry level gaming system that most laptop will have a hard time keeping up with.

It's a matter of the right tool for the the right job. Most people who seriously game don't need a system that is portable. While portable systems are not design for gaming. The Thinkpad series especially was designed for the business environment rather than the gamer.

[ZaZ]

I'm not much of a gaming guru, but maybe an AMD based machine would be the way to go. I think integrated AMD GPUs tend to be better than Intel. You don't get as much CPU performance, but that's probably not a problem for most uses. Perhaps an AMD HP unit might be worth a look. You might want to pose this over on Notebook Review if you've got an account. I'd think you'll find more gamers over there who can lead you in the right direction.

[TuuS]

I had a 17" HP pavilion with AMD phenumII cpu and dual ATI graphics, integrated and discrete. It was an ok system performance wise, but I hated the keyboard and mouse with a passion so I got rid of it and replaced it with an elitebook that has Intel cpu and nVidia graphics. The high-end AMD/Ati systems were never the highest performing systems in my opinion and many of the more recent amd systems are more of the netbook class computing. It's possible they have something new that competes with gaming, but I'd do some research before considering anything in that direction. Also consider that unlike thinkpads most of the cheap amd based machines are disposable. When one dies you probably won't be able to fix it without spending more that it's worth.

I'll also second what Cigarguy said, a gaming laptop will never perform as well as a cheap desktop. Getting a powerful cpu and gpu into a notebook and a cooling system to support them isn't an easy task, but you can do a lot with a desktop including liquid cooling systems and multiple GPUs. Powerful graphics on a laptop is nice, but it will never be a serious gaming rig which is why I mentioned that you could spend thousands on one and still not even have what I'd consider an ultimate laptop.

However, I think it's safe to say we have over analyzed this situation.

[Medessec]

To the original poster: If you want to get a young guy something properly mobile but is cheap and extremely potent with modern gaming, then my personal recommendation would be the Thinkpad W500 or T500 with Radeon 3650. The V5700 in there, despite it's age and ridiculous ATI heritage, still packs a punch with most modern games. And as long as you get one with a T9400 or better, it can do pretty nicely with Windows 7 or 8. A fully loaded W500 can also be loads useful, with a camera, fingerprint reader, turbo memory, and the WUXGA screen. I've sold two W500s to my friends(who before previously had current model laptops) and they really love the Ultrabay, rock solid feel, and the keyboard and touchpad. The first I assembled for $280, the other for $190. Windows is not included in that cost.

If he needs anything that's better on performance, then whatever you're going to get will cost more, or not be as nicely made. A T410 would be a good idea-the NVS3100M in that is really good for games as well. I believe that as with most teens, they're going to drop it, stack books on top of it, step on it while it's under a blanket on the floor, etc. I'd like to hear if you find something that has a more delightful balance between ruggedness and performance.

PC gaming is supreme, but expensive.

However, I think it's safe to say we have over analyzed this situation.

You can never give a scenario too much knowledge... well, actually, I suppose you can. But regardless, I am an idiot, so I must press on. You don't have to read what's below.

Gaming and laptops is, IMO, an oxymoron. Unless you are willing to spend the $$. A cheap custom build desktop with a $200 GPU will easily out pace most so called "gaming" laptop. A cheap Lenovo mini desktop can be had for $100 with an E8400 CPU. Add a $200 GPU and you'll have an entry level gaming system that most laptop will have a hard time keeping up with.

Getting a powerful cpu and gpu into a notebook and a cooling system to support them isn't an easy task, but you can do a lot with a desktop including liquid cooling systems and multiple GPUs

In my personal experience, it highly depends on how well the laptop is engineered. Because Laptop processors, or mobile processors, work quite differently... they dynamically change their performance in response to the thermal ceiling, and power available. This results in inconsistent framerates and performance during games and simulations. For example: Some CPUs run on full until they reach 100C, at that point they enter a "low-power state" where they undervolt or underclock to burn less go-juice and produce less heat. Most Desktops, in contrast, don't know a thermal ceiling, except to instantly shutoff when they get too hot. They just assume that the system builder has properly set up the cooling. Any throttling or tuning done to help a desktop's thermal profile on the software level is usually third-party stuff, such as on servers or workstation computers, or gamers for when a component overheats.

How well a laptop performs is highly dependent not as much on the CPU or GPU, but how large the thermal ceiling is. The more copper, more fins, the bigger the fan, the better the thermal ceiling. However this usually means more weight, and only gaming brings out the worst of a laptop's thermal profile. So most makers go for less weight and more efficiency.

Laptops with a small copper pipe and a single fan don't have much to dump the heat into-so they hit their thermal ceiling easier during gaming. Other laptops combat this problem by simply: adding more copper and fins(T4x and on do this), adding a more massive fan, or adding more fans. So really-if you're looking for a mobile gaming solution, you want something supremely engineered and designed for CAD work(i.e, a Thinkpad) OR, you want something gargantuan or extremely massive(Alienware M18x, ASUS R.O.G.) the "laptop" that does this best by far is... you guessed it, a combination of the two. The Thinkpad W700. It's got separate CPU/GPU fans, which have fins spread on the sides and back relative to the fan, and massive heatpipes to the processing die. It blazes any task, including gaming, and because it's a Thinkpad, it's whisper quiet.

It is true, that in general with buying a laptop, the equivalent performing desktop is vastly cheaper. But it is the mobility you're paying for. And on the subject of using secondhand hardware, yes, it is possible to obtain a cheap mini-desktop, cut a hole in the side, and plop a Radeon 5570 in it and watch it fly and the PSU sizzle, and do it all for just a few hundred, possibly even under a hundred. But a low-end W700 can be had on ebay for $300-$500, and my D900F, a gargantuan monster laptop that uses an X58 chipset and server-grade(Xeon W3570) CPU, only cost me $750, charger and Windows key included.

[RealBlackStuff]

Don't want to be rude here, but if a kid can afford all those games, he certainly also could afford his own laptop...

[ajkula66]

Don't want to be rude here, but if a kid can afford all those games, he certainly also could afford his own laptop...

Or a gaming console...which can be had for a penny on the dollar nowadays as long as they're not the latest and greatest.

My daughter learned the hard way...it took her exactly six days to melt a MacBook...

Nowadays, it's xBox or Wii...

[emtee3511]

Thank you RBS, Medessec, TuuS, ZaZ, and Cigarguy -- Forum members are the BEST


I researched "most powerful T400 there is, with switchable ATI and Intel graphics ThinkPad T400 (2767-Y12)" from RBS, and was very hopeful it might work for this teen. But as noted in my post above, it's probably not going to work for him. As far as affording his own laptop, you were not rude at all RBS. However, this kid is from a special needs family. Seriously ill father not working for awhile, as well as a younger sister with Down Syndrome. His mom supports the family.

I had this teen as my volunteer helper teaching a special needs religious ed class at church, beginning when I had his younger sister in my class. She was one of my students with Down Syndrome, and after she was confirmed, her brother stayed on for several years with me as a volunteer student helper. He was in middle school when I gave him the X61, and when he started high school this past year, I gave him the T400, and he passed his X61 down to his sister. I haven't checked with him specifically what games he wants to play, but I'm guessing he may have been given something new for Christmas. I do know he has no budget -- rides his bike down a busy highway to get to church. He's not my student helper any longer, but he texted me recently that he wanted to know if a used toshiba he wanted to buy from a friend could use 'parts' from his T400 and work with his games. I don't remember the toshiba model, but I googled and saw it had no better video capability than his T400.


I'm pretty sure he doesn't realize the cost of a true gaming system (nor did I) or that a machine which will play the 'new and improved' games will cost BIG bucks -- so now I will educate him, and he will have to be content with the machine he has.

Thanks VERY MUCH for all the input. I am now wondering about a T500 or W700 mentioned above. I wouldn't have batteries for those machines, but I do have Windows 7, memory and ssd available -- so might look into what I can find. My concern is that I might purchase a machine in my budget/under $300 (which is no small sum out of my household budget) and still possibly end up with a machine that will not play games reasonably. I'm not sure at this point if I will continue looking -- my own children are grown, with my youngest son 22 years old with Down Syndrome living with us. I know how important his ThinkPad is to him -- email/youtube/google -- he loves it. If I can come up with a machine for the kid from my church, so much the better -- if I can't, I know the kid is happy with the machine he has.

Thank you to everyone who has chimed in!

[emtee3511]

ajkula66 "Nowadays, it's xBox or Wii..."

Maybe that's what I need to check out... My kid in Korea (posted with the Army at Camp Humphries) just got a new X-Box or Play Station or something -- he may have an old one to sell...

I'm tooooooooo old for this stuff -- my head is spinning...

I enjoy my ThinkPads -- so user friendly -- thank goodness my Down Syndrome kid doesn't understand gaming. His big brother puts a plastic guitar in younger brother's hands, and younger brother thinks he's playing guitar hero with big brother -- very simple... like me