Rant about 16:9, and maybe switching back to X60t from T520

[killer]

@lophiomys: In that Utopian world the 16:9 machines would probably be a lot cheaper than 4:3 machines.

I added my tuppence worth to this debate because I like 16:9 and see its value. I also recognise that some people hate it.

Unless the big corporations have a sudden change of heart it is unlikely that the 4:3 case will win the day. Perhaps you should accept that reality, and learn to live with change. Change is like a steamroller running out of control downhill. You will never stop it, so sometimes it is best to stop complaining and stand aside.

Your argument is good but your troops failed to get into formation before the battle was finished.

[ajkula66]

While I'm not optimistic about 4:3 format making a comeback (short of ToughBooks and iPads), I am happy to see the return of IPS, even in less-than-desirable (for me) 16:9 format...

While I don't foresee myself buying a X220, I could see an EliteBook entering this house should we hit the lottery...

Short of that, I might just build a T6x FrankenPad if this winter lasts long enough...

[lophiomys]

@killer:
I get your point, but if one would follow your advice,
one would have to eat, what the dogs are eating, or better: what the dogs get feed by The Big Companies.
Practically you would be giving up your point of view as a paying customer.

Knowing from multiple experience, how decisions are made nowadays in big cooperations by career covering managers,
it would be a shame just to accept it and stand aside. As customers in the free market we should to stick to our guns.

But the scenario you described in your post is not really a free market economy any more.

[bill bolton]

But the scenario you described in your post is not really a free market economy any more.

Since a free-market economy is one within which all markets are unregulated by any parties other than market participants, the above makes no sense at all.

[cksubs]

Next week, Apple is going to announce the iPad 3.

It has a 4:3 screen.

2048x1536 resolution.

9.7 inch (diagonal) display size.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2012/ ... r-logs.ars

Absolutely insane that Apple will release a 4:3 display of that caliber, and ThinkPad doesn't have a single 4:3 display in their lineup.

---

[ajkula66]

Next week, Apple is going to announce the iPad 3.

It has a 4:3 screen.

2048x1536 resolution.

9.7 inch (diagonal) display size.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2012/ ... r-logs.ars

Absolutely insane that Apple will release a 4:3 display of that caliber, and ThinkPad doesn't have a single 4:3 display in their lineup.

---

Huh...we heard the same about iPad 2 last year and it never happened.

On another note, I'm a resolution addict, but QXGA on a 10"...that is a non-starter for a 99.9% of the population. Most people couldn't take it on a 15" (4:3) ThinkPad...

[cksubs]

On another note, I'm a resolution addict, but QXGA on a 10"...that is a non-starter for a 99.9% of the population. Most people couldn't take it on a 15" (4:3) ThinkPad...

The difference being that iOS is "resolution independent" or whatever the technical term is. Each app icon is "finger sized" regardless of what the actual resolution is. Makes the graphics sharper and capable of fine detail, but text and buttons are still displayed at human readable and touchable size. Best of both worlds.

---

[pianowizard]

Huh...we heard the same about iPad 2 last year and it never happened.

It will happen this time. For iPad2, QXGA was actually Apple's original plan but the LCD suppliers were behind schedule.

The difference being that iOS is "resolution independent" or whatever the technical term is. Each app icon is "finger sized" regardless of what the actual resolution is. Makes the graphics sharper and capable of fine detail, but text and buttons are still displayed at human readable and touchable size.

Well said. In other words, on these tablets, display resolution is not to increase "real estate", but to improve graphics and text quality.

I have an HP Touchpad, which uses the same 9.7" XGA screen as the iPad/iPad2 and its WebOS scales the same way as iOS. On this tablet, small text looks very jagged and it makes a lot of sense to bump the screen up to at least 1600x1200.

[cksubs]

"Resolutionary"

"The new iPad"

http://www.apple.com/ipad/

The Retina display on the new iPad features a 2048-by-1536 resolution, 44 percent greater color saturation, and an astounding 3.1 million pixels — in the same 9.7-inch space. That’s four times the number of pixels in iPad 2 and a million more than an HDTV. Those pixels are so close together, your eyes can’t discern individual ones at a normal viewing distance. When you can’t see the pixels, you see the whole picture. Or article. Or game. In ways you never could before.

[tombaker]

Yes the new Ipad 3 is gong to be quite tempting, they already makes some very nice little keyboard cases which essentially make it a laptop.....just missing the trackpoint.

The new display is going to be as significant of a jump of the 3gs to the Iphone 4. The high res is just wonderful for text.

Having now sold off my T60 IPS, and my T60 14.1, I will probably keep my X61t forever. And hope for the 14.1 Ipad 4 or 5 to come out soon.

I have seen some demos of Window 8 running on the X61t, but with only single point touch, it will only do so much. The price point of the Ultra-books is still too high, and IMO the new functionality is not super compelling. Hopefully there will be something coming in a tablet windows 8 convertible in 4:3 coming out. I have not done the checking for the upcoming stuff.

At least 4:3 hi res screen, normal sized fonts, IPS, has a champion in Apple keeping the format going, and considering the design inertia with developers, I doubt the size is going widescreen any time soon.

[Cunha]

A laptop that doesn't have reasonably flash functionality.

I have an Ipad2 and love it, but it is a far cry from a real laptop. Its a great machine for watching netflix, viewing and tinkering with your photos of videos a little bit...playing games.

But you will occasionally run into compatibility issues that cripple its ability as an every day laptop replacement. I like mine and would recommend it but it isn't a laptop.

16X10 resolution with 1200 vertical pixels is my favorite. You can run two web pages really well and have plenty of vertical space. I love my X61s. XGA is great for a type writer which is basically what I do with it, fine for movies which aren't streamed at 1080p resolution anyways.

DPI is a little low for photos, or bad / blurry PDF text documents.

[RealBlackStuff]

16 reasons NOT to buy a new iPad (including 7 that haven’t changed from earlier iPads)

[tombaker]

Agree that the Ipad is still not a complete solution, however a friend has a pretty nice case/keyboard thing, which makes it pretty close for a lot of people.
After reading the article why not to buy the Ipad 3, the author says he owns one, and is keeping it to replace his Ipad 1. Claiming he could not just use a test unit because he has some sort of "editorial needs"

He also slams the 4:3 format for the sole reason that a movie would be letterboxed. Not mentioning the format is more useful for portrait modes. Even if you are not happy with the screen format, it is clearly the best screen on any and every tablet. Without considering its small size, its the best display on any laptop. Size is the only thing from calling it the best screen on every type of portable. As far as movies go, the length of time you can use an Ipad vs most laptops give movie viewers on plans a clear advantage with Ipad 3 and its bigger battery.

All that said, I am still keeping my X61t it has the AFFS (S-IPS) screen, and oddly enough, for sitting on the couch and surfing and TV viewing, I don't have to hold it, it can rest on the lap, I can use it in more positons easier because I don't have to hold it. Any typing is much easier. The high res X61t might be better, I just ended up with this one, for the hope of finger usage.

So hopefully Windows 8 will come out with something, like a Tablet PC of old.

A wide screen is like saying you need a legal size piece of paper, when 8.5 x 11 works all the time.

[ajkula66]

Even if you are not happy with the screen format, it is clearly the best screen on any and every tablet. Without considering its small size, its the best display on any laptop.\
.

I guess you haven't seen HP's DreamColor offerings on EliteBooks...which are targeting the opposite end of the market - desktop replacement...I'd love to be able to justify owning one...

[tombaker]

I guess you haven't seen HP's DreamColor offerings on EliteBooks...which are targeting the opposite end of the market - desktop replacement...I'd love to be able to justify owning one...

You are right, now I have http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIBg_4DGfNY, I think the Ipad is better because of the resolution still, but again if you want 17 inch wide screen size, the HP is the best. I have not seen the IPAD 3 in person yet, some of the reviewer I have to laugh at though, saying the new screen is not such a big deal, you only notice the big improvement on minor things like TEXT.

Apple is using Samsung super PLS IPS varient, and LG and Sharp are still being qualified.....so many the good news is that IPS may be making there way back into general laptop market again. Lenovo can at least not claim they can not find supply. but then there is the newest problem. 16:9 removing the 16:10 standard.

Really wanting Lenovo to step up the game here, on something sub-1000

[Dr-J]

For me both 16:10 and 16:9 are non-starters, since I use a laptop primarily for its role as a tablet. My use is unusual, perhaps: I use it to read, review and annotate proposals that are in PDF format (standard 8.5"x11" pages), and I review hundreds of them per year. The X61T works OK (I have the 1400x1050 version) but the loss of physical size is not helpful. It would be far worse to lose the physical similarity of the screen to a page of paper, and 16:9 simply will not work.

A tablet or a convertible with an iPad 3-like resolution would be great, if it were larger (13 or 14 inches). I don't think anything like this will ever get built.

[fombusee]

The horizontal array of our eyes enhances our field of view and peripheral vision horizontally, making widescreen viewing preferable for scenes (video, gaming, landscape photography, group photos, etc.). However, we have always arranged most forms of information in portrait layout (written, printed, tabulated, and more). Word processing systems in the late 1970s and early 1980s used vertically oriented displays. Portrait orientation is still better for working with documents, text in general, math, spreadsheets, lists, tables, large arrays... A 5:4 ratio display rotated into portrait orientation (4:5 aspect) most closely approximates the width/height aspect ratio of an 8 ½ x 11 document. These display aspects are best for desktop work when video and gaming are not a priority, but obviously, a 5:4 aspect monitor would not fit well with a laptop keyboard, and 4:5 is worse still. They do however illustrate that the 4:3 aspect ratio is already a compromise of comfortable display of text, documents, spreadsheets, and so on, for the ability to watch video, movie, game, and other media in landscape format.

Most web pages are arranged in portrait orientation (discrete pages and/or running columns) and don’t use the width of 4:3 displays, let alone widescreen displays. This is often the case despite placement of menus and photos on the side and use of multiple text boxes. Some claim that arranging two document windows side-by-side can make up for the incongruent widescreen/document orientations, but very few web pages use two or more text columns. It requires smaller print fonts, and the eye saccades (movements) between columns are less natural than saccades back to the top of page. Documents with two printed columns on landscape-page-orientation are a minor mode of presentation for these reasons. Furthermore, side-by-side windows increase the requisite manipulation of content within windows and “window focus”. Books are occasionally bound without printing on the left facing pages, and documents more so (Graduate theses and dissertation formats usually do not use facing pages).

Peoples’ needs for taller computer displays will vary to extremes. Some work almost exclusively with video and games, while others read, write, and interact full time with large texts and data sets. Imagine a library, business, or legal firm that is mandated to write, print, read, and otherwise use all documentation in landscape orientation (not to mention if page aspect ratios were increased). We just aren’t wired to manage all data like that. Data sets of all types only increase in number and size as information sciences advance. Display of vertical information arrays will increase concurrent with landscape display of video data. Please sign the following petition to restore a standard option for 4:3 laptop display aspects:

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/B ... 43Laptops/

[lophiomys]

Full ACK. Thanks for the link.

[Ibthink]

Intel is pushing 21:9 in Ultrabooks and AIOs, so maybe thats the next step in this direction. I hope Lenovo will never switch the ThinkPads to 21:9. Toshiba brings the first 21:9 Ultrabook to the market: http://www.dvhardware.net/article54658.html Although 16:9 is ok for me, 21:9 is clearly not. Thats the worst format for a Notebooks ever, this Toshiba-Ultrabook ist the worst Notebook-Design I´ve ever seen.
Picture ( ):

[pianowizard]

Intel is pushing 21:9

Where did you get this info? Did you come to this conclusion simply because Toshiba has introduced the world's first 21:9 laptop?

[Ibthink]

http://www.computerbase.de/news/2012-06 ... -und-21-9/
Translated from German:
"Intel: WirelessCharging, Plug-in Compute and 21:9
...
Both all-in-ones as well as ultra-books appears to be emerging, a slight trend with regard to new display formats. For in both product categories devices with screens in 21:9 format are shown. While this is a disadvantage in productive use, film lovers will benefit from it. At higher resolutions, there was speculation over the last, but it seems to do without any longer. For now, the ultra-limited laptop manufacturer, according to Intel's sure to provide as many models with full HD displays.
..."

and

http://www.notebookcheck.com/Intel-favo ... 866.0.html
"Computex 2012 | Intel favors Touch-Ultrabooks with Windows 8 and the 21:9 format
...
Intel preference for future generations of computers the movie-capable 21:9 screen-ratio. Toshiba unveiled at Computex 2012, the first 14.4 "ultra-Book as Satellite U840W with 21:9 display.
..."

I still hope that that is not true.

[pianowizard]

21:9 is actually not a bad idea for oversized, super hi-res desktop monitors, let's say 36" 3360x1440, or even 48" 4480x1920. The latter would be much nicer than one of my current setups, where I get 3600x1920 by lining up three Dell 2407WFPs in portrait mode. 21:9 is also good for portable devices dedicated to movie watching. I wouldn't buy them but I am sure there is a demand for them. So, as long as Intel, Toshiba and others restrict this aspect ratio to desktop monitors and movie-playing devices, I don't object.

[Caterpillar]

we must continue every single day telling Lenovo that 16:9 screens for Thinkpads are bad!!!

[E350]

I am a "layman." I.e., not a computer professional. [My computer work entails producing documents using WordPerfect, Adobe Acrobat Pro, and some Excel.]

That being said, I have used "portable" computers daily in my work since I bought my first Compaq Portable in 1983:

http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/C ... e-1982.jpg

I then moved on to the Toshiba laptop with red font, and then on to the IBM ThinkPad 755c.

Since then, I have owned A31p's, T42p's, X61s', X61T's, widescreen T61p's, X61's, etc.

This thread made me go back and look at the IBM 755c on the web. I now know why my preferred daily driver is the Lenovo X61, 4:3, 2.4Ghz, 8Gb, W7 64-bit, AGN, Seagate Momentus XT Hybrid 500 Gb.

It is the same form factor as my old IBM 755c !!! 4:3 screen using a small font, so I can place it close to me on the desk so my eyes don't have to scan too wide horizontally, tall enough that I don't have to constantly scroll vertically, and close enough so I can type comfortably - and the uber-functional mini-joystick which IBM dubbed the "TrackPoint" which I simply could not live without.

Am I old and dislike change? Hmmm...

Partly.

I am definitely old enough to have entered the "Name our new laptop line" contest. (You should all be happy that I didn't win because what I suggested wasn't as catchy as "ThinkPad.")

Looking at my vocation and avocations, I employ a blend of new and old school technologies. My river running kayak of choice is the old school Necky Jive - narrow but with a planing hull. My powder ski of choice is the 195cm Rossignol Super 7 - definitely new school. I would swap my '77 Corvette for a 2014 Subaru WRX Concept in a heartbeat. I am modding the tuning and injectors on my Ford Powerstroke 7.3L, but have no interest in the newer Ford diesels.

Form should follow Function and both should follow Purpose.

My top of the line IBM 755c cost slightly over $5K with the IBM-installed upgrades and accessories, as did the A31p's.

When computers first came out the Purpose was Work - mostly document production (there is a reason books have been produced in mainly portrait mode since the invention of the printing press in 1400, and 8.5x11 paper documents are mostly printed in portrait mode).

And the market was a narrow niche of Professionals that needed and could afford computers given their relatively high prices.

The current Purpose has shifted to Entertainment. The market is Mass. Lenovo is a Chinese company which no doubt wants to chase the mass market.

My guess is that the desirability of the 4:3 screen aspect ratio will be re-discovered in the next few years. (Didn't Jobs settle on it for the iPad?) But it will likely make its debut through the back door as a tablet with an independent keyboard on which the screen can be oriented in portrait mode.

At first it will be a retrograde solution, an under-powered tablet/netbook hybrid. But eventually, some manufacturer will re-discover the pent up demand of the Professional and produce a powerful 4:3 screen tablet which rotates to portrait (I wish my X61T's would rotate to portrait).

Lenovo are you listening?

Personal Rant Off...

[rumbero]

Form should follow Function and both should follow Purpose.

That pretty much sums it up. Well said!

[Cigarguy]

^^^ I agree but unfortunately our world is ruled by bankers and accountants. In an era where traditional computers are generally in decline, Lenovo is the only one still trending up. This is NOT due to innovation or improvements but due to Lenovo's access to the domestic Chinese market. So we, the enthusiasts are left behind while they concentrate on volume to the masses. So, Lenovo can capitalize on Thinkpad's reputation and name while at the same time cheap out on the parts, construction quality and features. The Thinkpad is becoming a Thinkpad only in name and colour. I suspect that pretty soon even the colour will change.

[pianowizard]

^^^ I agree but unfortunately our world is ruled by bankers and accountants. In an era where traditional computers are generally in decline, Lenovo is the only one still trending up. This is NOT due to innovation or improvements but due to Lenovo's access to the domestic Chinese market.

Not only that, but I recently read that Lenovo sacrifices profit to gain market share, e.g. Lenovo's profit margin is much lower than HP's and Dell's. Lenovo's goal is to drive all competitors out of business by underselling.

[dsvochak]

In a free market, isn’t the “Purpose” of every business maximizing market share and profit? If that’s the case, selling what the mass market wants (or accepts) is a reasonable means of achieving the “Purpose”.

It doesn’t seem reasonable to me to rant against Lenovo for doing what’s in Lenovo’s best interest.

[pianowizard]

In a free market, isn’t the “Purpose” of every business maximizing market share and profit? If that’s the case, selling what the mass market wants (or accepts) is a reasonable means of achieving the “Purpose”. It doesn’t seem reasonable to me to rant against Lenovo for doing what’s in Lenovo’s best interest.

All the things that Lenovo has been doing make perfect business sense, and no one here is arguing with that. The people who rant are hoping to get Lenovo to consider making premium Thinkpads that would meet their demanding needs. I am sure these people aren't asking Lenovo to make only premium Thinkpads, but making such laptops in addition to all those cheap laptops that cater to the mass market.

BTW, I am definitely not ranting against Lenovo, since I abandoned Thinkpads years ago and have been happy with desktops and non-Thinkpad laptops. My previous post wasn't a rant at all, but simply an elaboration on Cigarguy's statement that Lenovo's recent success isn't because it makes great innovative products, but because of aggressive prices and better access to the Chinese market.

[Cigarguy]

Yes absolutely Lenovo can do what they want. On the flip side, we the consumers, have a right to rant and rave all we want. Is there something wrong with that?

Ultimately we decide with our feet, which some of us have done. When my old Thinkpads no longer serve a purpose, I too will decide with my feet. Lenovo need not lose this minority if they do not want to. They can offer options that will make us happy without loosing money. For example, offering a premium high resolution screen and the classic keyboard as a premium $$ option is nothing new or innovative and can be a money maker for them. The Thinkpad brand was always synonymous with quality and premium with a premium price to go with it.