I have lost my faith in the Thinkpad Brand.

[Kaze22]

Should have saved yourself the time and hassle and just got a T420s.
I know for future reference that the old T series built quality is now only found in the TS models.

[Ibthink]

Sorry, but that is [censored]. The s model have a magnesium bottom cover, that is right, while the normal T420 a ABS/PC-plastic bottom with CFRP has. But beside of this fact, the normal T420 is much more robust and more rock-solid, because the T420s hasn´t a full T-Series rollcage and the displaycover of the s is a much thinner, which don`t protect the display very well. And the palmrest of the T420s is the same material as the palmrest of the T420. The T420 is a bit heavier and has not the very nice magnesium bottom-cover, but a not-lemon T420 should be very well built. Sure it uses other plastics than the former T-Series. But I like the newer plastics like the one in my L520 very much, they are IMHO not bad in comparison with my EX-R60 or my R50e.

[dr_st]

'fixed' keyboard rattle by shoving a couple of wires between the keyboard and the Rollcage. modern technology, folks!!

I use little sticky piece of thin rubber magnets to improve keyboard support when I find it inadequate. It works wonders and usually there is no other way to "fix" it. Kudos to them for coming up with a creative solution like that. Of course everything else shows gross incompetence and negligence.

[sysiphus]

But I like the newer plastics like the one in my L520 very much, they are IMHO not bad in comparison with my EX-R60 or my R50e.

I've never used an R60, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that the R5x was built with ABS plastic, using the outer shell as a loaded member. Don't get me wrong, the R5x series had some fine machines, and I rather liked one of the R51s that I had...but I'd be anything but excited if a current ThinkPad's materials/structural design were reminiscent of an R5x.

[ajkula66]

@dxps26:

Hang in there, help is coming your way. That's all I can say.

Good luck.

[dxps26]

@ajkula66

Mark Hopkins, The Program Manager for Lenovo Social Media, has been in touch with me. A new case number has been assigned from both Atlanta (where some poor chap had to get an earful from me - Sorry He was very professional in the face of my verbal dive-bombing) and also from Mark. I just sent him a PM updating him about all this.

seems like my trusty old Tecra will need to be unpacked. Five years old, cant live without an umbilical to the AC outlet, but chugging along without any such issues.

Maybe I did get a lemon. On the whole, the T420 seems to have a positive vibe all over the internet. The sexier sibling, the T420S seems to be the one with more than its fair share of threads on this site, discussing one problem or another. I made my choice between the two based on my needs and usage (generous port selection-mainly eSATA, longer battery life with one pack attached only, 9mm drive compatibility, less frequent travel and mobility, etc.) so for me to lament my choice of product is pointless. The machine was chosen because it ticked all the right boxes for me, and my expectations of reliability and quality were reasonable.
I could have gone and purchased a Macbook Pro if i wanted a very solid, flex-free and high-class product. but that would have given me a computer that despite being housed in one giant heatsink, still manages to get scary hot and throttle down, with a truly awful keyboard, and for the price point, specifications that are lower than the competition.
Plastic/ABS/CFRP etc. will flex, it's their nature to do so. Smaller, thinner and compact systems will flex less than their larger brethren because there is a lot less area available for compression forces to act on, and frankly, I'd prefer my notebook not to shatter because the market demanded harder, more brittle materials that appeared to be stronger, but were completely the opposite. Plastics and Composites are a fairly advanced science, and it is easy for a layman to expound the quality of one kind of plastic versus another, without knowing what its properties are, and how they are used in applications.
My expectation was not a system that felt like it was chiseled off the monolith from 2001:A Space Odyssey, but a fairly well bolted together machine that does what it says on the lid.

That is not what I got.

even if the system does get replaced, the foul taste left in my mouth by the carelessness and crudeness of EasyServe's methods have made me reconsider my choice. there is no telling what unpleasant surprises the replacement may bring, putting me at the mercy of the same wrench-wielding poltroons that had their way with my computer twice.

I shudder at the thought.

[Kaze22]

a system that felt like it was chiseled off the monolith from 2001:A Space Odyssey

Thats the standard I hold all my Thinkpads to. Nothing less.
They can keep their new GIJOE plastic, I'd gladling pay a few hundred even a thousand more for a machine that matches up to what I expect from a Thinkpad.
So far of the current Thinkpad line, only my X220T has lived up to my 2001 Monolith standard.

The old T60s and T61s were Tanks. I tell you, you could drive a car over them and still have no flex. When you held one, it felt like a weapon. They were built to withstand artillery.
I remember those military tests they used to do on Thinkpads, I don't know how well the current line will standup to those tests.

It helped that when IBM owned the company, the U.S Govt were strictly using Thinkpads. All the military and intelligence branches used them, so they couldn't really get away with GIJOE plastic. Now that the US Gov has switched over to HP, it's down hill for built quality. Which leads to me wondering, doesn't the Chinese Govt only use Thinkpads? I would think the Chinese military would want better built machines?

Speaking of monoliths, Thinkpads should always resemble a 2001 monolith, zero reflection, jet black, sharp edges, square with no round corners, and no designs or patterns of any kind on the exterior lid. Which leads to my dissapointment in the X220.
Why did Lenovo at that rediculous line across the lid? Why? It ruins everything. Here's hoping that Lenovo removes the lid line on all future Thinkpads.

[lead_org]

Some of the Chinese government agencies use ThinkPad, but not all of them, as there are quite a lot of Dell machines in service too. But many Chinese professionals whom do know a little about computers will use ThinkPads, those who don't know much about computers get Macbook Pro or Air as a fashion statement.

The Chinese military used a Lenovo built fully ruggerised machine, much like the Panasonic Toughbook.

[pianowizard]

I remember those military tests they used to do on Thinkpads

I wouldn't trust videos made by the Chinese government.

[mixz1]

]

I wouldn't trust videos made by the Chinese government.

I think many of the videos spoken of were made by IBM and other non-Chinese participants. See http://goo.gl/EZCsA

[ajkula66]

The old T60s and T61s were Tanks. I tell you, you could drive a car over them and still have no flex. When you held one, it felt like a weapon. They were built to withstand artillery.
I remember those military tests they used to do on Thinkpads, I don't know how well the current line will standup to those tests.

It helped that when IBM owned the company, the U.S Govt were strictly using Thinkpads. All the military and intelligence branches used them, so they couldn't really get away with GIJOE plastic. Now that the US Gov has switched over to HP, it's down hill for built quality.

A couple of things here...

T60 with its notorious crack-prone frame should hardly be held as a standard of ThinkPad durability. T61 with its jello-quality hinges would fit in the same category...

Now, if you were talking about the 600 series, I would agree with you 1000%. These things were tanks, with T30 being not-that-close second.

As for the military use...it's ToughBooks and not HPs. And there are still some ThinkPads floating around, albeit older ones.

Speaking of days when IBM had owned the brand...there was a *lot* of plastic back then. Just look at the A and R series.

As sweet as older T series were, their durability was more of a legend than a fact. I've seen examples that were seriously abused and they didn't hold up all that well. That's why real abusers (utility companies, government of any kind) have gone Panasonic for the most part...

[dxps26]

I use little sticky piece of thin rubber magnets to improve keyboard support when I find it inadequate. It works wonders and usually there is no other way to "fix" it. Kudos to them for coming up with a creative solution like that. Of course everything else shows gross incompetence and negligence.

Kudos indeed.
The technician who devised this masterstroke of engineering did not consider that the palmrest plastic was being pushed up by the added thickness of the wire going up and over the inner edge, creating a convex, curved palmrest right below the arrow keys, and also was too proud of his creativity to notice that the pressure being exerted on the wires will eventually cause the insulation on them to be damaged, which will cause a short-circuit when the naked wire comes in contact with the Mag-Alloy rollcage.

I do not know where those wires go and to what they are connected (they are red and black, I suspect it is the right speaker...can anybody shed some light on this?) but I do know that short-circuits of even a small magnitude on a peripheral device such as a speaker, in so small and complex a system as a notebook computer can be devastating.

One would think that the designers and engineers who made this system would have ensured no such mishap by providing a safe channel for the wire to pass through. Lenovo must have spent hundreds of man-hours designing and prototyping this particular part, ensuring all possible vectors of damage are eliminated. Nobody wants to do a product recall because the palmrest engineering team were too lazy to guide a couple of wires safely between a sheet of plastic and the solid, uninsulated surface of a conductor. but this savant at easyserv thought nothing of it.

I seriously don't know what to think.

[Kaze22]

As sweet as older T series were, their durability was more of a legend than a fact. I've seen examples that were seriously abused and they didn't hold up all that well. That's why real abusers (utility companies, government of any kind) have gone Panasonic for the most part...

I don't know I've killed about 6 guys with just my old T60 alone. LOL
Deadly when thrown, gives Captain America's shield a run for its money.
The sharp corners really help in causing extra damage in combat.

[dr_st]

Kudos indeed.
The technician who devised this masterstroke of engineering did not consider that the palmrest plastic was being pushed up by the added thickness of the wire going up and over the inner edge, creating a convex, curved palmrest right below the arrow keys

Good general idea, bad choice of implementation.

and also was too proud of his creativity to notice that the pressure being exerted on the wires will eventually cause the insulation on them to be damaged, which will cause a short-circuit when the naked wire comes in contact with the Mag-Alloy rollcage.

Probably would never happen, in all honesty. In all Thinkpads I've opened there were always wires running directly under the keyboard, without any safe channels (some sticky tape at best to hold them down). Not once have I heard of the insulation being damaged.

I do not know where those wires go and to what they are connected (they are red and black, I suspect it is the right speaker...can anybody shed some light on this?) but I do know that short-circuits of even a small magnitude on a peripheral device such as a speaker, in so small and complex a system as a notebook computer can be devastating.

I seriously don't know what to think.

That they are incompetent. Which they clearly are. It's not even remotely the first story I've heard about botched-up EasyServ repair jobs. I consider myself lucky to a point that here in Israel IBM still handles the repairs, and usually does a good job.

[dxps26]

UPDATE : 22/4/12

I got a call from a representative from Lenovo USA (name redacted on the advice of others on this forum) who was very patient in dealing with me.
I have asked for a replacement machine, along with an upgrade to On-Site services, as I am not confident in EasyServe's ability to carry out any repair work. The Representative emailed me to say he will honour my request for on-site service, and send a replacement machine too.

Do replacement machines tend to be Refurbs or new machines? I understand an older model like a T60 or T400 in need of replacement may be substituted with a Refurbished machine, as it is no longer in production, but what about machines that are currently coming off the line in the factory??

MODS : edited original post to include this so readers don't have to run through the entire thread.

[ajkula66]

You should remove the rep's name so he doesn't get stuck with calls from every unhappy Lenovo customer.

That said, he is a very nice guy. And you will get a brand new unit.

Keep us posted.

[pianowizard]

Both T60 machines I had (14" 4:3) had fantastic build quality, the keyboards were flex-free, the plastics felt high-end, and the metal-reinforced lid helped the unit feel solid and secure. By contrast, the T520 I had felt light and hollow

To me, "light" and "hollow" are good things. Do you really wish your T520 were heavier? And "hollow" is probably better for ventillation than "dense".

[wolfman]

Agreed, my W520 from work has the same chassis and it does feel light and hollow and I like that as I expected it to be more heavy and dense and am glad it's not. The quality seems to be just fine and it does seem to do a nice job with heat from the 2.5 gigahertz quad core processor.

[dxps26]

You should remove the rep's name so he doesn't get stuck with calls from every unhappy Lenovo customer.

Noted, and action taken. I would not want anybody to be harassed for no reason.

It is good to know that the matter is coming to a close in the foreseeable future, and I will keep my fingers crossed that the replacement unit is not as disappointing as the original machine was.
Now that I look back on the scenario that has unfolded, I realize that the machine itself had very few faults, and it was operational as per the textbook definition of the term when the keyboard was replaced. Say what you will about the quality of the T420's Construction vis-a-vis its ancestors, a visit to the nearest Best Buy's laptop section was enough to convince me of the Thinkpad's markedly better construction. Agreed, it's not in the same league as a Unibody Macbook, or the X301, or the vaunted 4:3 T60, but compared to the kind of trash sold in the market today, there is a world of difference. Try skewing and flexing the screen of any consumer laptop (my personal test for sturdiness) and then compare the T-Series. Only the Macbooks feel more rigid and solid. My brother's 13" Macbook took a 3 foot fall onto a sidewalk getting out of a taxi, and all it had was a minor scratch. Maybe he was lucky. or maybe, the Macbooks are quite simply the best-built notebooks out there, to say nothing of their throttled processors and asthmatic ventilation.

Win some, Lose some.

So, no, I think the machine I have, while flawed in some respects, is still a decent deal for the money. What complicated the matter was the handling of the system by the diseased institution called EasyServ. Negligence on the part of the team responsible for repair caused the scene to turn so ugly. If the job had been done right the first time, I would not have ranted on so vigourously. Thankfully, the power of social media was elegantly demonstrated, and Lenovo may yet come out of this with a happy customer, if they get their act together.
As I explained to the Lenovo Representative over the phone, I did not buy this machine for the Specifications or the oft-discussed build quality. I could have spent $800 and come home with a superior (on paper) machine. I bought a Thinkpad, because many of us depend on our computers for our life professionally and socially. To be encumbered with a machine that first does not perform as expected is bad enough, but it can be easily remedied. However, If the cure for the malady ailing our precious computers makes things worse, taking our machines away from us and hampering our work, that is reason enough for taking up the cudgels and screaming blue murder. Lenovo must drill this simple lesson into their heads if they want to be taken seriously as a supplier and IT partner for businesses large and small.

[ajkula66]

One of the best thing about ThinkPads is the strength of the community that supports them...as you've found out yourself, even if the circumstances were less than desirable...

[Kaze22]

To me, "light" and "hollow" are good things. Do you really wish your T520 were heavier? And "hollow" is probably better for ventillation than "dense".

Almost sounds like a euphemism. Usually light and hollow is correlated with cheap. When a laptop is hollow, its usually poor design, good design is usually compact, and light usually means less durable material is used.
If you look at an Ipad or Macbook, they are almost always dense and sturdy. I don't remember ever seeing a hollow Apple product.
Also if you look at the more expensive Thinkpads, they are almost always densers than the cheaper counterpart.

I don't think any designer of electronics considers leaving a whole lot of empty space inside a product a good design choice. So, no I wouldn't agree that light and hollow Thinkpads are an improvement.

[pianowizard]

When a laptop is hollow, its usually poor design, good design is usually compact, and light usually means less durable material is used.

I agree with the word "usually". My Panasonic Toughbooks (CF-Y5 and CF-Y7) have extremely thick display lids that are hollow and light. Both laptops cost at least $2K when new (could have been even $2.5K) and were considered even more upscale than the best Thinkpads. These thick lids were intended to protect the LCD panel. The bottom chassis is quite thick as well, probably to allow for better ventilation and mechanical protection, e.g. protection against flexing.

[dr_st]

I'd love to play with one of these Panasonics a little bit. I guess I should plan a trip to Ann Arbor.

[dxps26]

on a side note - not related to the woes that have befallen me

Installed Intel's Cream of the Crop 520 Series SSD in the Main Bay.

Holy Moly!

The system is several magnitudes snappier, and this just from a simple drive cloning done with Intel's tools. No clean install or Thinkvantage recovery, and no registry-level tweaks applied yet. I will be Re-imaging the drive from the New system's disk once it arrives. Sequential Read speeds of 490 MB/s, close enough to what the reviewers achieved on their desktop test-beds.

Considered Intel's mSATA offerings, but $180 for 80gb at SATA2 speeds was just a bad deal compared to $200 for 120gb at SATA3 and Intel flavoured SandForce.

I thought the T420 was quiet. now, when the 7200/500 spinner winds down, the computer is - Dead - Silent - not even a whisper. Of course, if you engage Turbo mode or fire up something more taxing, the fan might wake up, but for most tasks, the fan is off on battery power, and barely idling on A/C.

Once the price ratio comes below 1gb/dollar, which it is almost at for many drives (the Mushkin 240gb was being sold for $258 on newegg yesterday) the spinner will be going into a USB3/eSATAp enclosure and its place will be taken by a 240 gb SSD, which does not have to be a top-tier drive. The noise reduction, power and weight savings, and the throughput of even a basic SSD is just too good for any HDD to compete with, especially for laptops.


However, The Recovery Disks made with Lenovo's tools Failed. I had to resort to Intel's software to migrate to the New SSD.

[Kaze22]

The Intel msata is for chumps, no offence to anyone who owns one. They are super slow and are way way overpriced.
I use this msata for two of my laptops, it works on Thinkpads and is much faster and much cheaper. Samsung doesn't sell these retail and few people outside of Chinese forums even know they exist.
http://www.auctiondose.com/detail_produ ... mini_pcie/

This should be the go to msata ssd for Thinkpads.

[pianowizard]

I'd love to play with one of these Panasonics a little bit. I guess I should plan a trip to Ann Arbor.

That's right, you mentioned that you might visit Ann Arbor at some point. Drop me a note and we will get together. You will play with not only my Toughbooks, but also the Sony X505 that I just received this afternoon. I wanted to get the X505 ever since it came out in 2004 and 8 years later, it finally happened. Besides its amazing weight of 1.90 lbs (which includes the wireless PCMCIA card -- the advertised weight of 1.85 lbs is without this card), I like its lack of a palmrest since I always hate resting my wrists on warm palmrests. The trackpoint is actually very good. It's kind of like the "Classic Dome" of Thinkpads except the top is flat, so it hurts my finger much less. It's chiclet keyboard is quite good, *much* better than the chiclet keyboard of the HP 5101 that I had. If I remember correctly, the Sony X505 was the very first laptop to have this type of keyboard.

EDIT: Actually, I intend to sell my CF-Y5 in the not-so-distant future and so you probably won't see it.

[dxps26]

UPDATE - 26/4/12

got a call from the Lenovo Rep. the new system should be shipped in a couple of days, and arrive within a week to ten days from shipping date.

[John H]

Say it isn't so! I Was about to get a T520 to backup my trusty old T60. Maybe I should just get a mint T61.

[dxps26]

Say it isn't so! I Was about to get a T520 to backup my trusty old T60. Maybe I should just get a mint T61.

how long do you plan to keep an as-good-as-new T61 in service? with parts inventories not exactly being replenished, I wouldn't be so confident in having such a machine as a daily driver. it might end up being a major source of frustration if you need to replace sundry parts a couple of years down the line, especially if you travel a lot. sitting on a desk-maybe...depending on your computing needs, the T61 may be a bit long in the tooth too. You know best.

all the issues aside, the T420 is a decent machine by today's standards. however, the standards themselves are somewhat pedestrian, that one wonders if these systems will be spoken of in such revered voices like the T42/T60 a few years down the line.

Do note, the issues with the machine were relatively minor - the fount of my anger is EasyServe. The issue was not of defective/poor parts - one can never be assured of getting a completely trouble free product, but one can be assured of efficient, accurate and skilled service in case said product does develop a defect.

I can't really speak for the 520, as i found it far too large and bulky for my needs. I strongly suggest you get your hands on one to try out before you commit funds to purchase your own.

[bill bolton]

systems will be spoken of in such revered voices like the T42/T60 a few years down the line.

From a fleet manager's point of view, history has not been at all kind to either model.

Cheers,

Bill B.