I have lost my faith in the Thinkpad Brand.

[asiafish]

A lot of developers have moved to OSX thanks to the UNIX compliance, but a large number of them buy the Air and replace OSX with the OS of their choice. The Air and Retina MBP are both excellent machines in their own right.
for some of us, though, Windows and Linux are like home, and Thinkpads are the cosy, well-sat in leather armchairs near the fireplace. I for one, cannot stand the ergonomics (or lack thereof) in the Apple machines.

I think developers are a pretty small audience and an even smaller percentage of Apple's user base.

Apple machines have very different ergonomics to ThinkPads, but different does not mean better or worse. I've used both for many years and each has advantages and disadvantages over the other, including ergonomic advantages and disadvantages. In my opinion (which is only of value to me) ThinkPads are better key action for heavy typists, which was matched by Apple's older keyboards as on the first MacBook Pro and last PowerBook models. Apple's new keyboards are very bad for heavy typists, but for those who type with a light touch they are fantastic. I have had to adjust the force with which I strike a key, and now I prefer the lighter Apple keyboard and have many missed characters when typing on my ThinkPad. Simply, neither is better, they are just very different, and the one a given user is accustomed to will be the one he or she thinks is superior.

There are many other ergonomic areas where they are different, but not better or worse. I like the TrackPoint better than the touchpad for heavy typing, but the touchpad better than the TrackPoint for non-typing use. Obviously Apple doesn't give a TrackPad, so ThinkPads are the clear winner for TrackPoint fans. For touchpads, however, nobody comes close to Apple for touchpad quality and control (under OS X). Even Apple's touchpad, when used in Windows, falls behind the level of comfort and control it has in OS X, but is still better than most other touchpads, including Lenovo's.

A modern Apple laptop running the latest OS X is a delightful machine for those who are accustomed to it. A ThinkPad running Windows is also a delightful machine for those accustomed to it. No matter what you are used to, switching to the other side will always be jarring and uncomfortable. If, like me, you are quite used to and comfortable with both, then you can just appreciate the areas in which each is better than the other.

I use a ThinkPad (X61s) for military duty and find it superior to my MacBook Air or Retina MacBook Pro for that role. I will likely upgrade it to a new X230 in the near future. For military duty, I am often away for an entire weekend without access to power, but still need to get work done. I am also outdoors, in dusty environments. Finally, all military work is done using a smartcard and authetication system that is Windows-only. I can do it on a Mac through Boot Camp or VM (which I do at my office), but in the field there is nothing better than a ThinkPad with auxiliary batteries and a built-in card reader.

As a civilian trial lawyer, I am always running from home to office to courtroom to airport and it seems everywhere else. My laptop must be very small, very light, turn on and off instantly and stay perfectly synchronized to my (Mac-only) case management database (DayLite 4). For that work, nothing is better than the 11" MacBook Air.

Finally I am a serious hobby photographer and enjoy computer gaming. At home and on longer trips I take my 15" Retina MacBook Pro, which booted into Windows 7 makes an outstanding gaming machine, and in OS X with DXO Optics, Aperture and PhotoShop is about the best post-processing machine I've ever used, and at 4.4 lbs is still light enough for travel.

Those machines all work well for me, but won't necessarily for others. Many complain about not Apple ditching optical drives, but I personally ditched the optical drive YEARS ago, on both Macs and ThinkPads. Many don't want to use OS X, while others don't want to use Windows (Linux isn't even an option in the legal field). Point is, most of us are in a particular niche or two, and the needs of that niche, be it developers, photographers, gamers, lawyers, doctors, whatever, will likely be best served by different systems.

[pianowizard]

Apple machines have very different ergonomics to ThinkPads, but different does not mean better or worse. I've used both for many years and each has advantages and disadvantages over the other, including ergonomic advantages and disadvantages. In my opinion (which is only of value to me) ThinkPads are better key action for heavy typists, which was matched by Apple's older keyboards as on the first MacBook Pro and last PowerBook models. Apple's new keyboards are very bad for heavy typists, but for those who type with a light touch they are fantastic.

These are excellent points that somehow are rarely discussed. I used to be a heavy typist but after suffering serious carpal tunnel syndrome for several months last year, I started to use lighter keyboards. Now I am a light typist and I hate heavy keyboards. So, what's "better" or "worse" is entirely subjective, and thus I don't believe that Thinkpad keyboards are intrinsically better than other laptop brands. On the other hand, in terms of reducing strain on the hand, I think lighter keyboards are always better than heavier ones.

[asiafish]

These are excellent points that somehow are rarely discussed. I used to be a heavy typist but after suffering serious carpal tunnel syndrome for several months last year, I started to use lighter keyboards. Now I am a light typist and I hate heavy keyboards. So, what's "better" or "worse" is entirely subjective, and thus I don't believe that Thinkpad keyboards are intrinsically better than other laptop brands. On the other hand, in terms of reducing strain on the hand, I think lighter keyboards are always better than heavier ones.

I used to swear by the old IBM Model M keyboards. I liked them so much that I bought a clean refurbished one a few years ago and used a Mac-compatible USB to PS/2 adapter (itself quite hard to find) so that I could, with some special key remapping, use it with the Mac.

Now that I type with a far lighter touch, I find the Model M quite uncomfortable for long periods, but will keep it for nostalgia purposes (connected to my Dell server).

[ThinkRob]

These are excellent points that somehow are rarely discussed. I used to be a heavy typist but after suffering serious carpal tunnel syndrome for several months last year, I started to use lighter keyboards. Now I am a light typist and I hate heavy keyboards. So, what's "better" or "worse" is entirely subjective, and thus I don't believe that Thinkpad keyboards are intrinsically better than other laptop brands. On the other hand, in terms of reducing strain on the hand, I think lighter keyboards are always better than heavier ones.

Ergonomics is a wierd subject! I actually did the reverse: I used to be a light typist who preferred short throw, light touch keyboards. Then I started to get the first painful signs of RSI. At the advice of some people who know far more about keyboards than I could ever hope to, I tried typing on a Model M. My accuracy sucked, and I was uncomfortable... for about a week. Over time, I think that their theory was correct; the keyboard eventually forced me to strengthen my hands and whatnot so that my issues went away.

I have no idea if that's junk science/placebo or whatever, but yeah: I went from light and shallow to heavy and deep.

Keyboards are like golf clubs or squash racquets: sure, there is a lot of science and engineering at work in making one, but ultimately "the best" one is what the user enjoys using the most.

[pianowizard]

Over time, I think that their theory was correct; the keyboard eventually forced me to strengthen my hands and whatnot so that my issues went away.

Actually, I doubt that your hands could have gotten much stronger in just one week. I suspect what happened was, the Model M's heavy keys forced you to type slower, which is one way to reduce the risk of repetitive strain injury. But let's assume that your hand strength did increase. Now that your hands and fingers are stronger than they used to be, try switching back to a light keyboard. I bet you would now last longer on a light keyboard than on a heavy keyboard, as long as you don't get tempted to type too fast.

[ThinkRob]

Actually, I doubt that your hands could have gotten much stronger in just one week. I suspect what happened was, the Model M's heavy keys forced you to type slower, which is one way to reduce the risk of repetitive strain injury. But let's assume that your hand strength did increase.

No idea. I'm not a ergonomics expert. It might have to do with typing speed (although AFAIK I wasn't typing any slower,) but my theory is that the higher actuation force and deeper throw allowed me to avoid bottoming out on most strokes.

Now that your hands and fingers are stronger than they used to be, try switching back to a light keyboard. I bet you would now last longer on a light keyboard than on a heavy keyboard, as long as you don't get tempted to type too fast.

I did try that, actually. I tried using a Filco with Cherry MX Browns (dampened with 50A O-rings). It did not feel comfortable, although I will say that it wasn't as uncomfortable as some of my past keyboards were. I did bottom out quite a bit, but the O-rings helped make that a little more acceptable.

[mikemex]

Well, this proves that it's wrong to generalize from specific situations. That machine was clearly a lemon.

But it's true. You can get a Thinkpad cheaper than ever and it shows, specially when it comes to support. I've also had bad experiences. Wise thing IMO is to buy second hand. I paid $450 for my T420 and couldn't be happier. My only major complain is size.

But get used to reduced extras from now on. Next year is the year of ARM. They are going to release $80-$200 notebooks. And it's not going to be toys like the ones they sell on eBay; this machines are going to be capable of verything you do now. Well, except truly heavy tasks such as gaming but most notebooks can't do that well anyway. At that price point, you should expect close to zero after sales support and service. I find it difficult for a brand like Thinkpad survive for long with that kind of competition; unless they also jump into that car.

[lophiomys]

The Thinkpad brand would not necessarily have to jump into that same car,
especially as there are obviously numerous customers, who would want to continue to get high priced but really good devices,
compare with Apple's successful products.

Secondly because there are other brands available, which could much easily jump into this car,
e.g. IdeaPad, Edge (without Thinkpad), L 3000 , ... you name it.

IMO there is no need to thin out and destroy a proven and very much liked brand, even if it would be
only a marketing vehicle for a niche market to polish a company name.

[mikemex]

IMO there is no need to thin out and destroy a proven and very much liked brand, even if it would be
only a marketing vehicle for a niche market to polish a company name.

They are already doing it, you know...

[Cigarguy]

They are already doing it, you know...

True and sad at the same time. Especially considering that some sources are reporting that Lenovo have overtaken HP as the #1 PC maker.

[PRAGUEGUY]

I have two lenovos now - a now dead R500, just died in last months of warranty.
And a totally cheapo Ideapad...the plastic around the hinges is totally broken away..I will post a photo later. However, it has outlived the R500!
This is probably just accidental.
However, I am now hesitating between a T420 and an Edge with similar processing power, just less of the perks, the "pride of ownership" factor of the T series, and all the flexibility (various extra bays for drives, booting from a flash card, docking ability and the like. )

Are these quality declines an argument towards just buying the cheapest thing Lenovo sells, that does the job?
After all, if the T420 suffers from the flaws described, I may as well have the rubbery , Ideapad-looking Edge machine...
what do you think? thanks

quote
e quality decline of these machines are not internal hardware related they are mostly on the external, such as the plastic and steel that harbors the unit, these commodities do not decline in price regardless of how cheap PC parts becomes.

[dxps26]

I have two lenovos now - a now dead R500, just died in last months of warranty.
And a totally cheapo Ideapad...the plastic around the hinges is totally broken away..I will post a photo later. However, it has outlived the R500!
This is probably just accidental.
However, I am now hesitating between a T420 and an Edge with similar processing power, just less of the perks, the "pride of ownership" factor of the T series, and all the flexibility (various extra bays for drives, booting from a flash card, docking ability and the like. )

Are these quality declines an argument towards just buying the cheapest thing Lenovo sells, that does the job?
After all, if the T420 suffers from the flaws described, I may as well have the rubbery , Ideapad-looking Edge machine...
what do you think? thanks

quote
e quality decline of these machines are not internal hardware related they are mostly on the external, such as the plastic and steel that harbors the unit, these commodities do not decline in price regardless of how cheap PC parts becomes.

After all the dust settled, and my machine was replaced, I feel the Thinkpads are still some of the best machines you can get. I agree with the poster above-buy a good second-hand used machine with warranty coverage. You can find fantastic value deals if you shop around. i've spent close to $1900 on my computing needs, adding solid-state drives and external peripherals, but that figure could be cut in half if i got a used machine of the same spec.

The details matter on the Thinkpad - the hinges, for instance. or the rigid top lid. or the keyboard. Specs don't count for anything if the overall package is shoddy. And barring my first machine, these computers are in no way shoddy.