How did the touchpad become the default interface on laptops

[paul*robertson]

When the trackpoint is so much better ?

I never really understood why.

[dr_st]

This may develop into a long and pointless argument. Not everyone will agree that the trackpoint is much better. To each his own and the argument should really end here. But there are a couple of other factors that favor the touchpad:

1) It is easier to master on a basic level than a trackpoint (though arguably harder to master on an advanced level).
2) It is (probably) cheaper to integrate. I have no data, but had the trackpoint been cheaper, you'd see more companies jumping on the bandwagon.

[paul*robertson]

It could be pointless in respect of who prefers which, i just wondered how one became so dominant. As you say, cost could be an important factor.

[pianowizard]

Research was done to compare which input method was faster and the touchpad was found to be significantly faster.

One more plausible reason that's entirely my conjecture: touchpads allow laptops to be made thinner, because laptops with a trackpoint need to have a larger gap between the screen and the keyboard to prevent the trackpoint from touching the screen.

[rumbero]

Research was done to compare which input method was faster and the touchpad was found to be significantly faster.

As this might be very interesting food for thought, do you happen to have any actual pointer to this research information?

Regarding touchpads, i guess that in modern touchpad equipped machines the possibilities provided by multi-touch and gestures surpass the capabilities of any trackpoint. Claiming that a trackpoint is superior to a touchpad therefore might only apply if one limits one's perspective to the limited feature set of a trackpoint. A reverse perspective would probably be much less favorable for a trackpoint in a feature comparison. Caveat: Myself, i am a die hard trackpoint user and never got used to any trackpad usage.

[pianowizard]

As this might be very interesting food for thought, do you happen to have any actual pointer to this research information?

I vaguely recall that this old thread had some information: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 33&start=0

Also, this Wikipedia article cites several studies -- scroll down to the "Comparison with touchpads" section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick

Regarding touchpads, i guess that in modern touchpad equipped machines the possibilities provided by multi-touch and gestures surpass the capabilities of any trackpoint.

Absolutely, but the OP asked about how the touchpad became the dominant interface many years ago, long before multi-touch touchpads became widespread.

Caveat: Myself, i am a die hard trackpoint user and never got used to any trackpad usage.

Have you tried going to "Mouse properties" and maximizing the speed of the mouse pointer? That makes the touchpad work much better.

[twistero]

Well, if you think about it, both the trackpad and the mouse translate your hand motion directly into pointer motion: You move left, the pointer move left. You move quickly, the pointer move quickly. You stop, the pointer stops. If you want to move the pointer for a specified distance, you move the mouse / finger on touchpad a specified distance, which is the same every time no matter you move faster or slower.
On the other hand, the pointing stick behaves quite differently: You push the stick to the left, the pointer move to the left. You push it harder, the pointer move faster. You "stop" your finger, the pointer moves in that direction constantly; you have to release pressure for the pointer to stop. If you want to move the pointer for a specified distance, you have to apply the appropriate pressure for the appropriate amount of time.
For the mathematically inclined, the mouse / touchpad is a proportional control, while the pointing stick is an integral control.

All these means the touchpad is quite a bit more "natural" to a casual user than the pointing stick, because it's much easier to relate bodily movements to pointer movements.
(BTW, this is the same mechanism as playing FPS games with mouse or joystick.)


The reason I like the TrackPoint is because I can have my finger on the stick and thumb on the buttons, so clicking is much easier. The distance between trackpad and buttons is too small to do the same, and tap-to-click has never been reliable enough to replace buttons. However, it is still easier to position the pointer with a trackpad than the TrackPoint.

[elray]

I would imply something about the Chinese takeover, but the touchpad plague is a western phenom - and who wouldn't want a little-red-[net]book?

The reason we now are now forced to accept the "industry standard touchpad" intruding on our beloved keyboard space, is that the people in the boardroom, along with the marketing, sales, and "design" team simply do not type. Add in the slate trend, some misplaced Cupertino-envy, and speech recognition finally coming of age, and keyboard quality issues will be forever ignored.

[rumbero]

Have you tried going to "Mouse properties" and maximizing the speed of the mouse pointer? That makes the touchpad work much better.

As i primarily use Linux on my machines and by default have the touchpad turned off in the BIOS, i haven't tried any such thing. I always considered it a nuisance to bother with touchpads, so i was never fair enough to really gave them a chance to prove their actual value. But i guess in comparison to more recent notebook generations, the touchpads in my T61's would not really be worth bothering anyway.

[pianowizard]

The reason we now are now forced to accept the "industry standard touchpad" intruding on our beloved keyboard space, is that the people in the boardroom, along with the marketing, sales, and "design" team simply do not type.

So, by your reasoning, isn't the desktop mouse an even worse invention than the touchpad? After all, one needs to move the hand almost two feet away from the keyboard to manipulate the mouse! On the other hand, if you are referring to accidentally touching the touchpad while typing, I haven't had this problem for small to medium-sized touchpads. Some new laptops have huge giant touchpads that might cause this problem but I haven't tried them myself.

But i guess in comparison to more recent notebook generations, the touchpads in my T61's would not really be worth bothering anyway.

I had a T43 and a T60 and despite the small size of their touchpads, they worked well. Large touchpads facilitate multi-touch gestures, but for just moving the mouse pointer, small touchpads work fine.

[Summilux]

My first laptop being a touchpad-only Sony, I would never have considered a Thinkpad before a T30 ; simply because I saw the trackpoint as an archaic, ill-designed pointing device.

Then I got myself a T60 in 2006, using its touchpad. One day, I decided to try using the trackpoint, as I wondered why it was still in the middle of my keyboard in the 21st century. What was so good about this thing? After experiencing an inevitable initial awkardness, I began accustomed to the red stick... to the point that I now will not consider buying a laptop that doesn't have a trackpoint, because that's the pointing device I'm using most of the time. Even on my desktop - I bought a USB TP keyboard.


Generalising my own experience, and as brilliantly explained earlier by twistero, I think most people (first time laptop users in particular) want something that translates their mental gestures into natural, "reflex" moves. Like a touchpad; which appears to be much more ergonomic than a trackpoint.
Many beginners also rely on GUI buttons more than keyboard shortcuts, i.e. clicking on the round arrow of their browser to reload the page rather than hitting the F5 key. Thus, they'll rely more on the ability to "naturally" move the pointer rather than the possibility to quickly use the keyboard keys offered by the trackpoint option.

It seems to me that touchpads democratised at the same time laptops became affordable, reaching an ever younger population that grew up with those (seemingly) more ergonomic solutions. Considering the habits they took (see previous points) and the outdated look of the trackpoints, combined with the manufacturers' push for the "cool & modern" touchpads, the rapid disappearance of trackpoints seemed inevitable.

[elray]

So, by your reasoning, isn't the desktop mouse an even worse invention than the touchpad? After all, one needs to move the hand almost two feet away from the keyboard to manipulate the mouse! On the other hand, if you are referring to accidentally touching the touchpad while typing, I haven't had this problem for small to medium-sized touchpads. Some new laptops have huge giant touchpads that might cause this problem but I haven't tried them myself.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to the discussion.

But no, the mouse is not worse. If you want to use a mouse, knock yourself out. It is optional. Likewise, if you want to plug in an external touchpad or trackball, go ahead. None of those impose themselves on the keyboard.

The presence of the touchpad - the real estate it consumes, and the resulting squeeze on keyboard row-height, which contributes to 6- or 6.5-row keyboards, is the worst. While I will admit defeat, and settle for turning off an offending touchpad, its de facto existence is a threat, which can eventually lead to the removal of the trackpoint. I would prefer to see palmrests as optional too. I have no need or use for them.

[twistero]

I would prefer to see palmrests as optional too. I have no need or use for them.

Um, what? The palm rest is a stretch of empty space. You can't remove empty space. Do you mean you would rather have a 10-row keyboard instead?

[dr_st]

Um, what? The palm rest is a stretch of empty space. You can't remove empty space. Do you mean you would rather have a 10-row keyboard instead?

Probably wants something like this: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=103388

[ZaZ]

Research was done to compare which input method was faster and the touchpad was found to be significantly faster.

Interesting. That would be counter intuitive to my experience. i find moving my hands back and forth between the touchpad and keyboard slows me down. Plus, I find scrolling to be much easier on the stick. Two finger scrolling notebooks works well too, but I've only seen one PC that's done it well - the XPS 13 Ultrabook. I did see in Wikipedia article it noted that the studies only measured pointing performance, not overall performance. That makes sense to me as to this day I on occasion overshoot objects. The article also said it didn't take into account how familar the users were with the stick. The stick has a longer learning curve. People new to it who've only used touchpads won't be as proficient as a long time stick user.

I remember see a Fujitsu similar to this one years ago at Best Buy and be fascinated by it. It's sort of a big stick where the touchpad is:

[pianowizard]

The presence of the touchpad - the real estate it consumes, and the resulting squeeze on keyboard row-height, which contributes to 6- or 6.5-row keyboards, is the worst.

Thanks for explaining yourself. The most common complaint about the touchpad is what ZaZ wrote (quoted below), but yours is new to me. So, as long as a laptop has a 7-row keyboard, you don't mind the presence of a touchpad?

Interesting. That would be counter intuitive to my experience. i find moving my hands back and forth between the touchpad and keyboard slows me down.

Does an external desktop mouse slow you down even more? In general I find that I am the most productive when using a desktop mouse, a bit slower when using a touchpad, and the slowest when using a trackpoint. Thus, I believe that the little bit of time lost when moving my right hand away from the keyboard is more than compensated by the efficiency of the desktop mouse and the touchpad.

Plus, I find scrolling to be much easier on the stick.

I find that scrolling is easy only on a desktop mouse. When I am using a trackpoint or touchpad, I just hit the "Page Up" and "Page Down" keys, or the spacebar, or "Shift" plus spacebar, or the arrow keys.

I did see in Wikipedia article it noted that the studies only measured pointing performance, not overall performance. That makes sense to me as to this day I on occasion overshoot objects.

I overshoot when using the trackpoint, but am far more accurate (and faster) with the touchpad.

The article also said it didn't take into account how familar the users were with the stick. The stick has a longer learning curve. People new to it who've only used touchpads won't be as proficient as a long time stick user.

From my experience, what dr_st wrote above is correct: the touchpad "is easier to master on a basic level than a trackpoint (though arguably harder to master on an advanced level)."

I argue that you prefer the trackpoint because you haven't mastered the touchpad. To maximize the efficiency of the touchpad, the learning curve is VERY long -- it took me almost half a year of daily practice, whereas mastering the trackpoint took me only like a few days. Besides constant practice, it's also important to set the mouse pointer speed to "maximum" in order for the touchpad to work well. If you use the default speed, the trackpoint works much better than the touchpad.

[ZaZ]

Oh, I'm slow on all of them. I do find scrolling on the stick to be at least the equal of a mouse. Just hit the center button and push in the direction you want to go. Two finger scrolling is good too, but few PCs I've seen do it well. The implementation isn't fluid like Macs. Nothing I do is really productivity intensive. I do prefer typing Office documents and such on my R60e because I find it easy to zip from one section to the next and it's got a great keyboard. Plus there's less hand movement.

I do wish Lenovo would create two palm rest/keyboard setups for the X series. With the stick and its buttons removed you could create a larger better touchpad with physical buttons, which I think touchpad users prefer. I think a touchpadless X220 is more aesthetically appealing. The current setup is a compromise that doesn't serve touchpad users well.

[pianowizard]

Multi-touch gestures probably benefit from large touchpads -- I say "probably" because I have never tried multi-gesture touchpads and so I am just guessing. But for moving the mouse pointer, I actually prefer the touchpad to be small and I wish the pointer could move even faster than the maximum speed that Windows allows. This way, I can move the pointer great distances without moving my finger much.

BTW, your (ZaZ's) comment about touchpad-only keyboards reminded me of one thing that seems to have never been brought up on this forum. Thinkpads' touchpads are less user-friendly than most other brands' because the trackpoint buttons increase the distance between the keyboard and the touchpad. If I had used only Thinkpads (or other laptops with both a stick and a touchpad) my whole life, it's quite likely that I too would have never bothered to learn the touchpad. My first laptop was an Inspiron 8200 with both pointing devices and indeed, I used only its trackpoint. I was forced to learn the touchpad only after getting an Inspiron 700m, which didn't have a trackpoint.

[elray]

Probably wants something like this: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=103388

Yes, that's it.

[Utwig]

I think the prime reason is that most people carry and use a mouse and use trackpad very seldom (when they forgot a mouse or for light duties) and hardly know what trackpoint is. Most people always have a mouse connected to a laptop and they also carry a mouse with their laptop all the time. While I carry just the laptop and take mouse only if I know I will be doing graphic work or gaming.

While for example I disable trackpad on my thinkpads (A21p and X61T didn't have it) I'm not averse to it and when I work on someone else's computer that has only trackpad I use that and don't ask for a mouse. People always wonder and they offer me a mouse when they see this.

Because of this, additional pointing device (beside a mouse) has been seen merely as a backup option to a mouse by laptop makers until Apple added touch to trackpad. This can be seen by having only 2 buttons on most trackpads (except some HP models) and most people not complaining. Even average users uses middle button for scrolling if not for opening and closing tabs and majority don't complain about lack of it on most trackpads.

Also with trackpoints I notice most people don't switch middle button from scroll to original middle button (which can also scroll horizontally) that can quickly open and close tabs.

Thus a trackpad is seen as a bare minimum backup solution while trackpoint has been designed by IBM at first into a desktop keyboard to supplant mouse and improve efficiency and be primary pointing device. Since learning curve is high most people who came from desktops stick to a mouse and see trackpad as better bare minimum compared to trackpoint.

[crashnburn]

My first laptop being a touchpad-only Sony, I would never have considered a Thinkpad before a T30 ; simply because I saw the trackpoint as an archaic, ill-designed pointing device.

Then I got myself a T60 in 2006, using its touchpad. One day, I decided to try using the trackpoint, as I wondered why it was still in the middle of my keyboard in the 21st century. What was so good about this thing? After experiencing an inevitable initial awkardness, I began accustomed to the red stick... to the point that I now will not consider buying a laptop that doesn't have a trackpoint, because that's the pointing device I'm using most of the time. Even on my desktop - I bought a USB TP keyboard.


Generalising my own experience, and as brilliantly explained earlier by twistero, I think most people (first time laptop users in particular) want something that translates their mental gestures into natural, "reflex" moves. Like a touchpad; which appears to be much more ergonomic than a trackpoint.
Many beginners also rely on GUI buttons more than keyboard shortcuts, i.e. clicking on the round arrow of their browser to reload the page rather than hitting the F5 key. Thus, they'll rely more on the ability to "naturally" move the pointer rather than the possibility to quickly use the keyboard keys offered by the trackpoint option.

It seems to me that touchpads democratised at the same time laptops became affordable, reaching an ever younger population that grew up with those (seemingly) more ergonomic solutions. Considering the habits they took (see previous points) and the outdated look of the trackpoints, combined with the manufacturers' push for the "cool & modern" touchpads, the rapid disappearance of trackpoints seemed inevitable.

I believe they have an easier learning curve for beginners. Funny how my father still prefers to use a mouse.

[crashnburn]

This may develop into a long and pointless argument. Not everyone will agree that the trackpoint is much better. To each his own and the argument should really end here. But there are a couple of other factors that favor the touchpad:

1) It is easier to master on a basic level than a trackpoint (though arguably harder to master on an advanced level).
2) It is (probably) cheaper to integrate. I have no data, but had the trackpoint been cheaper, you'd see more companies jumping on the bandwagon.

On the dot

[trilogydw85]

Research was done to compare which input method was faster and the touchpad was found to be significantly faster.

One more plausible reason that's entirely my conjecture: touchpads allow laptops to be made thinner, because laptops with a trackpoint need to have a larger gap between the screen and the keyboard to prevent the trackpoint from touching the screen.

I don't know what studies you're looking at. Numerous studies have shown the trackpoint to be significantly more accurate and faster than the trackpad.

The reason why the trackpad is actually less efficient is you always have to take your hand off the pad (after each swipe) whereas the trackpoint you don't. In terms of accuracy, think about when you're trying to get to the specific point on the screen that you want but there is a few pixels to go, and what happens? You run out of room on the trackpad -- which forces you to take your hand off the pad again and now you've lost your place on the screen. This always happens on the small trackpads you see on the laptops of today. Another problem with the trackpad on accuracy is when your finger doesn't rub smoothly on the flat surface. Many times your finger has just enough oils on it to cause vibration on the surface. This is especially a problem when your doing slow movements (pressing too hard).

Apple probably knew this fact and that's why they did the right compromise by giving a much LARGER trackpad with multi-touch gestures. This helps but I suspect I would still be more efficient with a track point.

The mouse is still the most efficient way. I hope no one tries to be just as efficient with a trackpad or trackpoint. MOUSE > TRACKPOINT > TRACKPAD.

Here's one study from York University that gives good evidence for this:

http://www.yorku.ca/mack/CHI99b.html

[pianowizard]

I don't know what studies you're looking at.

You obviously didn't read through the entire thread. Previously I referred to this article, which mentions the studies demonstrating the superiority of the touchpad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick .

Numerous studies have shown the trackpoint to be significantly more accurate and faster than the trackpad.

You listed just one. Please list "numerous" additional ones.

The reason why the trackpad is actually less efficient is you always have to take your hand off the pad (after each swipe) whereas the trackpoint you don't.

It's not that simple, because, like you said, "The mouse is still the most efficient way". It takes even longer to move the hand from the keyboard to the external mouse, and yet it's the most efficient way. If one uses the touchpad properly, it's so much faster than the trackpoint that the amount of time wasted to take one's hand off the keyboard is gained back easily.

In terms of accuracy, think about when you're trying to get to the specific point on the screen that you want but there is a few pixels to go, and what happens? You run out of room on the trackpad -- which forces you to take your hand off the pad again and now you've lost your place on the screen. This always happens on the small trackpads you see on the laptops of today.

You just confirmed my suspicion that you aren't using the touchpad correctly. As I have pointed out about 90 times on this forum, to optimize the touchpad, we must MAXIMIZE the speed of the mouse pointer. With this highest speed setting, the need to swipe the finger multiple times rarely arises. I rarely have this problem even on my Toughbook's tiny touchpad, or on the even smaller touchpad of the HP Mini netbook that I used to have.

Another problem with the trackpad on accuracy is when your finger doesn't rub smoothly on the flat surface. Many times your finger has just enough oils on it to cause vibration on the surface. This is especially a problem when your doing slow movements (pressing too hard).

I am sorry to hear that *your* finger has this problem. I have never had this problem, not even close. And why would you ever find yourself "pressing too hard" on a touchpad? That's another indication that you aren't using touchpads properly. When I need to move the pointer slowly, I don't press harder; all I need to do is move my finger slower.

If anyone reading this happens to be in my area (Ann Arbor MI), I invite you to my place where I will demonstrate the right way of using the touchpad. We can also have a contest where you would perform a certain task using your favorite trackpoint and I would perform the same task using just any touchpad, and I am 99% certain I would beat you. In the extremely unlikely event that I lose, I would buy you lunch.

[trilogydw85]

Wikipedia states this:
Some users claim it is easier to finely position the pointer than when using a touchpad because there is virtually no "dead zone". Some users feel that pointing sticks cause less wrist strain, because user does not need to avoid resting wrists on a touchpad, usually located just below the keyboard. Some people find them more appealing for mobile gaming than a touchpad, because the track-point allows infinite movement without repositioning.

It also stated "Most studies find the trackpad was faster" then cited 1 study that showed it was 15% faster. I just showed you 1 study that shows the opposite. I think when researching it's imperative to look at studies objectively. Obviously you really didn't read the articles or studies. If you look closer the study "Wikipedia" cited only really tested the "mean movement time". Also the methods were not as extensive as the study I pointed out. If that study showed it was 15% faster, the York study pointed out: "Results show a significant difference in throughput for multi-directional task, with the joystick 27% higher; results for one-direction task were non-significant. " Throughput is a better measure (as it is a FUNCTION of time), not to mention the joystick scored high on the user's assessment (Which the other study did not include). It also stated the improvements in measure of time and concluded: "The mean movement time for the joystick was 1.975 seconds with a standard deviation of 0.601 seconds. For the touchpad, the mean movement time was 2.382 seconds and a standard deviation of .802 seconds. These differences were statistically significant (F1,22 = 11.223, p = .0029). From this we can conclude that the pointing time for the joystick is 17% faster on average.".

Studies aside, I think your answer to use the "fastest" mode on the trackpad is not a good compromise. I'm happy you are so great using the highest speed on the track pad, however, I don't know too many people that could do that. I could easily argue, that having my touchpoint on the fastest setting would then be even faster (since my finger NEVER leaves the joystick where yours ultimately will). If need to make precise movements you cannot use the fastest sensitivity settings. My original point still stands -- you will inevitably move off the sensor. Furthermore, we find that we are comparing people with different abilities. I believe the fastest and most accurate trackpoint user would beat out the fastest trackpad user. I would however state the learning curve for the trackpoint is actually a little higher than the trackpad on first use.

And the problem with the surface of the pad is not just my problem. This exists even if I don't press too hard, however if you don't believe me, try to move your finger extremely slow away from you (almost like pushing forward) and you will notice it too (your finger jumps the surface). It is most evident when involving precise movements. Though I confess having a glass touchpad (which has the least coefficient of friction) absolves the problem. This is still a problem with plastic touchpads.

Your arrogance on your abilities is astounding. I'm extremely faster using the mouse. I would never say my abilities using the pointer is faster (I only use it when I don't have my mouse) but it is far better than the touch pad. There is no point in contests when you obviously use your touchpad instead of a mouse! Which makes you deluded; you are not faster than someone equally skilled on a mouse.

[pianowizard]

I just showed you 1 study that shows the opposite. I think when researching it's imperative to look at studies objectively. Obviously you really didn't read the articles or studies. If you look closer the study "Wikipedia" cited only really tested the "mean movement time". Also the methods were not as extensive as the study I pointed out.

The most frustrating part of online forums is that people often misunderstand others' posts. Please reread my previous posts. I never said that the four studies cited by Wikipedia were perfect or that they proved the superiority of the touchpad. I merely speculated that these studies could have led the industry to migrate to the touchpad. I also didn't question the validity of the study you named. However, you claimed that "numerous" studies had shown the trackpoint was faster than the touchpad but gave only one example, so I wanted to see if you could really back up your claim. As I expected, you couldn't.

Studies aside, I think your answer to use the "fastest" mode on the trackpad is not a good compromise. I'm happy you are so great using the highest speed on the track pad, however, I don't know too many people that could do that. I could easily argue, that having my touchpoint on the fastest setting would then be even faster

You need to try it for yourself. "Maximum" is way too fast for the Thinkpad trackpoint or any external mouse, but is reasonable for the touchpad. In fact, if I were to use the touchpad at Windows' default speed, it would become too slow and I would actually prefer the Thinkpad trackpoint. My Sony X505's trackpoint is unusually slow though, so that "maximum" is actually still fairly slow, but for all the 45 Thinkpads I owned, "maximum" made their trackpoints too fast.

And the problem with the surface of the pad is not just my problem. This exists even if I don't press too hard, however if you don't believe me, try to move your finger extremely slow away from you (almost like pushing forward) and you will notice it too (your finger jumps the surface). It is most evident when involving precise movement

But you see, I never have to move my finger THAT slowly to precisely move the pointer.

Your arrogance on your abilities is astounding. I'm extremely faster using the mouse. I would never say my abilities using the pointer is faster (I only use it when I don't have my mouse) but it is far better than the touch pad. There is no point in contests when you obviously use your touchpad instead of a mouse! Which makes you deluded; you are not faster than someone equally skilled on a mouse.

Once again, please reread what I wrote, carefully. I agreed with you that the mouse was the fastest. I said I could use the touchpad faster than the best trackpoint user, not someone using a mouse. I use mice 95% of the time, because I use desktops 95% of the time. I don't know where you got the idea that I don't use mice.

UPDATE: The whole day yesterday I used either my desktop computers or my smartphone and so I didn't have a chance to use a touchpad. But I am typing this sentence on my Latitude E4200's touchpad and finally had a chance to observe how I really move the pointer slowly and precisely. What I said yesterday was wrong: no, I don't do this by moving my finger slowly. Instead, I stop moving my finger altogether, and then slightly twist it or tilt it to get the pointer to move just a tiny bit. That's probably why I have never experienced the "jumping" problem that you mentioned.