What has Lenovo Done to the TP Keyboard, and WHY!!??

[Nigellus]

I was browsing some of the newer ThinkPad models on the Lenovo web site, and I've noticed that they seem to have replaced the traditional ThinkPad keyboard with the contourless (or near countorlless) style that nearly everyone else uses.

Why? Why? Why?

Does anyone know? For me, the major selling point of a ThinkPad was a keyboard whose Caps lock key doesn't ram right up agains the A key. When I type on a keyboard of that style, my typing LWAYS ENDS UP LOOKING LIKE THIS.

[dr_st]

Short answer? Because Lenovo wants its laptops to look more like everyone else's.

[Nigellus]

Short answer? Because Lenovo wants its laptops to look more like everyone else's.

Which begs the question, why did they buy the ThinkPad line in the first place? That would be like a car company buying Lincoln from Ford, and then redesigning the Towncar so as to more resemble a GM economy car.

[Ibthink]

You really are late to the party in this aspect: This change was made more than 1.5 years ago with the Tx30 models.

The main problem many people have who complain with the new keyboard is the layout, not the keys themselfs. The keypresses feel very much like the old keyboard, the travel is nearly identical, the mechanisms are the same. Lenovo made this change in reaction to the success of the ThinkPad X1, which was released in 2011 (as the first Classic model with the new keyboard style). There were many positive reactions to the new keyboard, so they decided to bring the dsame style to all models.

The CapsLock key will be removed with the next new ThinkPad design in 2015 I think. The new X1 Carbon, which will be relased pretty soon, won´t have this key anymore.

[Adda]

Lenovo made this change in reaction to the success of the ThinkPad X1, which was released in 2011 (as the first Classic model with the new keyboard style). There were many positive reactions to the new keyboard, so they decided to bring the dsame style to all models.

The CapsLock key will be removed with the next new ThinkPad design in 2015 I think. The new X1 Carbon, which will be relased pretty soon, won´t have this key anymore.

They obviously listened to the wrong people, and ignored the rest.

The last bit is hilarious though, no more CapsLock huh? please, PLEASE show me someone complaining about that pesky CapsLock key being in the way.
Unless Lenovo is just making up excuses, a lot of people must be bothered by that key right?

[yak]

The last bit is hilarious though, no more CapsLock huh? please, PLEASE show me someone complaining about that pesky CapsLock key being in the way.
Unless Lenovo is just making up excuses, a lot of people must be bothered by that key right?

I am surprised as well but to be honest, I can't remeber when was the last time I used caps lock. I definitely used the menu key more often which they removed from the new layout.

There are a lot of people that think the caps lock should die. Many Unix folks map it to Ctrl to make shortcuts easier to press.

[Nigellus]

Lenovo made this change in reaction to the success of the ThinkPad X1, which was released in 2011 (as the first Classic model with the new keyboard style). There were many positive reactions to the new keyboard, so they decided to bring the dsame style to all models.

The CapsLock key will be removed with the next new ThinkPad design in 2015 I think. The new X1 Carbon, which will be relased pretty soon, won´t have this key anymore.

They obviously listened to the wrong people, and ignored the rest.

The last bit is hilarious though, no more CapsLock huh? please, PLEASE show me someone complaining about that pesky CapsLock key being in the way.
Unless Lenovo is just making up excuses, a lot of people must be bothered by that key right?

I've historically complained about the CapsLock key in non-ThinkPad laptops. Since at least the early 2000s, they've used a completely flat CapsLock key that causes it to be level right next to the A, and that messes up my typing.

As for whether or not we need the CapsLock, we do. I do, anyway. The style manual for my profession requires section titles (which can sometimes be quite lengthy) to be in all caps.

@ Ibthink: You DID notice that I use a T60, right?

[ZaZ]

I actually like the new keyboard, but am more troubled about the new trackpoint setup.

[Ibthink]

The last bit is hilarious though, no more CapsLock huh? please, PLEASE show me someone complaining about that pesky CapsLock key being in the way.
Unless Lenovo is just making up excuses, a lot of people must be bothered by that key right?

Thats not the only change that the new X1 Carbon will bring:
- 6th row being capacitve Touch buttons, which function can change (Lenovo calls this "dynamic smart keys", the functions of the 6th row change in different programms, the F-key functions are also still available)
- No more CapsLock (in the place of CapsLock are the End and Home keys)
- Esc and Delete are being moved to the 5th row, Esc in the left corner, Delete in the right corner, which means a smaller backspace key
- FN is removed from the lower left corner (bigger left Ctrl key) and put into the 6th row as a capacitve Touch-key

I think the CapsLock key was removed because many people didn´t use this key and it was a source of many typing errors. The one thing more critical for me would be the smaller Backspace key, I don´t know if I could get used to this (as well as the 6th row being Touch). Maybe CapsLock will be availabe through the 6th row, we will see it when Lenovo announces the new X1 Carbon on CES 2014.

@ Ibthink: You DID notice that I use a T60, right?

Of course.

[Adda]

Thats not the only change that the new X1 Carbon will bring:
- 6th row being capacitve Touch buttons, which function can change (Lenovo calls this "dynamic smart keys", the functions of the 6th row change in different programms, the F-key functions are also still available)
- No more CapsLock (in the place of CapsLock are the End and Home keys)
- Esc and Delete are being moved to the 5th row, Esc in the left corner, Delete in the right corner, which means a smaller backspace key
- FN is removed from the lower left corner (bigger left Ctrl key) and put into the 6th row as a capacitve Touch-key

I think the CapsLock key was removed because many people didn´t use this key and it was a source of many typing errors. The one thing more critical for me would be the smaller Backspace key, I don´t know if I could get used to this (as well as the 6th row being Touch). Maybe CapsLock will be availabe through the 6th row, we will see it when Lenovo announces the new X1 Carbon on CES 2014.

Lenovo sucks [censored], they really do want to get rid of the people who played a major role in making the ThinkPad brand a success, thanks for [censored].
I guess they must have sacked their old design team, and hired some smart phone fanatic, hipster idiots to design the failure of tomorrow.

I'm glad you didn't call the X1 Carbon a ThinkPad, I do wonder though, are you still going to defend this ruined design, or do you have your limits?
Who'd want a keyboard, where they keys are strewn on with a shovel?

I guess it's time to buy some ThinkPad USB keyboards, I hope I can get the old variant without windows keys.

Oh that reminds me, the windows key is still on the new X1 right? they wouldn't remove the useless keys of cause.

The pointless, buttonless DumbPad is coming!

[dr_st]

Oh that reminds me, the windows key is still on the new X1 right? they wouldn't remove the useless keys of cause.

The Windows key is far from useless.

It's funny how you bash Lenovo for messing with some keys you find useful, and in the very next sentence bash them again for not eliminating a key which is important to many other people.

[Adda]

Oh that reminds me, the windows key is still on the new X1 right? they wouldn't remove the useless keys of cause.

The Windows key is far from useless.

It's funny how you bash Lenovo for messing with some keys you find useful, and in the very next sentence bash them again for not eliminating a key which is important to many other people.

I'm just wondering why they find CapsLock, the whole functionkey area + groupings and the key that used to sit between AltGr and Ctrl, less important, then the windows key.

I don't use the windows key at this time, I did use it for hotkeys in Linux once.
When that key was first introduced, I heard a lot of complaining about it, I still find that it's in the way when using Ctrl + Alt key combos.

It would make more sense to move the windows key so it sat between AltGr and Ctrl, in place of, well PrintScreen on current models.

I'd prefer that they left well enough alone, on the other hand, going back to desktops will save me a lot of money.

[wolfman]

I'm beginning to think I'll keep my T420 for a long time. It might be my last Thinkpad... I may go back to a desktop. Sigh...

[elray]

Why? Why? Why?

I call it "Cupertino envy, with a dash of [Carly] Fiorina."

Primarily, the people running the show are several levels removed from our reality, where people still type and code. We're a small minority interest. They're looking to market their product based on ... form, not function.

Creative, ingenious engineering, would permit some customization ("freedom of choice"), in the form of screen, 6/7 row keyboard, trackpoint or touchpad, palmrest or "taller" keyboard, and reap substantial profits. But we're in a bottom-line world, and MBAs like to smooth out options, while "design" people just want things to look pretty, and engineers are overruled by superior executive / PHB logic every day - all over the world, not just in America.

I've found that the new chiclet keyboard is close enough to the real thing for my needs. But the removal of the trackpoint-pad-buttons, and the continued palmrest encroachment, mean I won't be buying anything beyond a T430/530, unless some clever folks figure out how to re-jigger the newer models to fix the defects.

[wolfman]

Agree with the above. When my T420 is long in the tooth I'll likely buy a Thinkstation or go back to building my own machines. My T420 sits on the dock 99% of it's life anyway.

[Adda]

Since I'm used to laptop performance, I think I'll go for an AMD Fusion system, in mini-ITX form factor.

[jayton4]

.... of the ThinkPad X1, which was released in 2011 (as the first Classic model with the new keyboard style). There were many positive reactions to the new keyboard, so they decided to bring the dsame style to all models.

Not to be Mr. Technicality here, but the x100e was a classic model that had the new keyboard style a year earlier than the X1. It seems like there was another model in 2010 that had the new keyboard (excluding the non-classic Edge series, of course), but I can't seem remember right now.

I think I could use to the island style, but the missing PAUSE/BREAK key, among other 6 row issues will keep me away.

Here is a lenovo blog post where they attempt to explain why they made the change: http://blog.lenovo.com/products/why-you ... d-keyboard

[Adda]

Here is a lenovo blog post where they attempt to explain why they made the change: http://blog.lenovo.com/products/why-you ... d-keyboard

Lenovo has made no attempts to explain why they ruined the layout, and removed quite a few buttons, because they can't.

[Cigarguy]

The T420/520 generation will be the last new Thinkpad that I buy. After that, if Lenovo is insistant on me looking elsewhere, it's the Elitebooks for me and my company. IMO, the classick Thinkpad keyboard was and is the best. As for newer hardware, I really like the Elitebooks and have bought about 10 of those the last year for the company. The Dell business class notebooks are interesting too.

Lenovo would easily have my business back by simply offering the classic keyboard as an option at the time of buying. It would not be that difficult for them to do this. Also, finally, they've started shipping new Thinkpads with better screens.

[dr_st]

Lenovo has made no attempts to explain why they ruined the layout, and removed quite a few buttons, because they can't.

I can try.

When comparing the *20 and *30 series, the keyboard has the same physical dimensions. So the only advantage is aesthetic - with the keyboard reduced to 6 rows, all key columns are of the same height, whereas before the 7th row keys were sort of "breaking the symmetry".

In itself, this justification may seem week. However if you observe the *40 series, where the chassis has been completely redesigned, and especially the X240 model, one will find an interesting advantage. The 6-row keyboard could now be pushed up farther against the screen, eliminating the gap that was in place of the 7th row. This allowed making the palmrest and touchpad much bigger compared to X220/X230, while maintaining the same physical form factor.

The other changes (like the notorious merging of Insert and End to the same key) are usually an attempt to remediate some of the problems introduced with the earlier layout change, such as the lack of space between the 3 groups of F keys (F1-F4, F5-F8, F9-F12).

To say that I welcome these changes would be a blatant lie. But in some cases it is easy to see the thoughts behind the processes, even if I don't agree with the reasoning.

Could some of the mentioned advantages be achieved without messing with the layout? Probably, but probably not all of them.

Do I see aesthetics as an advantage in a laptop? Yes, but my taste does not always coincide with that of Lenovo's designers and/or Apple fans.

The problem here is that, apparently, Lenovo's decision makers on this subject failed to view the traditional, established keyboard layout as an advantage in itself. Or they weighed it very lightly against things like visual conformism, size of touchpad or whatever else was on the scale.

[Cigarguy]

^^^ That my friend is at least a feasible explanation even though it doesn't cut it with me. Lenovo have slapped the Thinkpad name to so many different models and variation now that keeping one simple "classic" Thinkpad model would be nice. For me a classic Thinkpad is well built, easy to take apart and service, black, classic keyboard, good hardware and a great screen (i.e. Flexview).

[dr_st]

Lenovo have slapped the Thinkpad name to so many different models and variation now that keeping one simple "classic" Thinkpad model would be nice.

It is not impossible that eventually they'll decide to do just that. If they happen to bring back the classic keyboard layout with it, that would be the only foreseeable way for me to get back to buying newer Thinkpads.

[Adda]

Well crippling usability, to get a bigger touchpad, makes no sense to me, and putting the keyboard closer to the screen, may cause your fingers to reach in front of the screen while typing.

If Lenovo made a ThinkPad with a classic keyboard and reasoning behind it, I'd buy it too.
But I have bought a USB ThinkPad keyboard, so I can stop worrying, and build my own system, I always wanted an Eizo display.

[dr_st]

Well crippling usability, to get a bigger touchpad, makes no sense to me

Well, for some people usability depends on the keyboard, for others it may depend on the touchpad...

putting the keyboard closer to the screen, may cause your fingers to reach in front of the screen while typing.

It's not so close for this to be a concern - you can look up some pictures of the X240 to see.

[Adda]

Just received my USB keyboard with trackpoint, and it's got a defective F7 key... sigh.

[cksubs]

Lenovo made this change in reaction to the success of the ThinkPad X1, which was released in 2011 (as the first Classic model with the new keyboard style). There were many positive reactions to the new keyboard, so they decided to bring the dsame style to all models.

lol, no. They made the change in response to the success of Apple's Macbooks.

[ZaZ]

I think they did to make a larger touch pad, which has been a problem, particularly on the smaller X series notebooks. Some don't like the stick and that's a valid position, but in an ideal world, they'd offer two solutions - one optimized for stick users and the other for touch pad people, but they didn't ask me.

[Nigellus]

Ok; somebody help me out here. I must be going crazy, right? All of the literature I've been able to dig up claims that the chiclet keyboard is superior to the classic keyboard in most ways. The one that really gets my goat is all the people claiming it performs just as well or better for typing.

Now, it could be that the keyboard on the ThinkPad is different, but I thought Lenovo's plan was to use the same keys for all of their computers. (In pictures, the tops of the TP keys do seem to be contoured like classic keyboards, and that probably makes a difference, but I have no first-hand knowledge).

Anyhow, the literature always comes with testimonials of people who liked the old keyboard being wowed by how noticeably better their typing is on the new chiclet keyboard.

Who are these people? Has anyone here experienced it? Because that has not been my experience (again, typing on a Lenovo non-TP chiclet, so there could be a difference).

[kony]

I actually like the new keyboard, but am more troubled about the new trackpoint setup.

Yeah, I also love T430's layout. It is very practical and it's the best layout I've seen on a laptop keyboard. I especially love 'page up' and 'page down' keys next to arrows, helps me a lot when reading and writing documents (I don't use mouse for scrolling, it takes too much time).

The only thing I don't like in the layout is that Fn key is in place of Ctrl, which can be switched in BIOS, but the original Ctrl button is larger and hence why I'd prefer it to be where the Fn key is.

[Summilux]

The one that really gets my goat is all the people claiming it performs just as well or better for typing.

Now, it could be that the keyboard on the ThinkPad is different, but I thought Lenovo's plan was to use the same keys for all of their computers. (In pictures, the tops of the TP keys do seem to be contoured like classic keyboards, and that probably makes a difference, but I have no first-hand knowledge).

Apparently, at some point, there were chiclets keyboards with a shorter travel than others. Which was problematic. I guess now all chiclets have the same travel.

Then there's the layout. Which has been deemed inferior by a good share of traditional users, but not all.

But for me, even ignoring those two above points, the chiclet shape will always remain bothersome. It does not allow for a smooth transition between the keys, for a fluid typing experience.