Is it time to leave Lenovo? Why stay loyal?

[TarzanBoy]

Hello,

I am on my 3rd laptop, and 3rd Thinkpad, a 15" Flexview T60 with an SSD and extra RAM. Lately, I have been feeling the itch and getting envious of family and friends with ultrabooks, macbooks, or other laptops with more modern components (and better battery life).

I've been away from the site for a few years, so I made an inquiry in the general forum about any thinkpads that might support QHD resolution.

After the crickets stopped chirping, I was informed that except for the X1 Carbon, there are maybe only two models of thinkpad whose display resolution exceeds 1920x1080.

I am disappoint. I am having a pretty hard time justifying a T4xx as my next purchase if all I really get in return is 1-2 more hours of battery life, middling screen resolution and no IPS.

I'm not an apple fan (far from it), but the first retina macbook came out almost 3 years ago.... as I type this there are more hi res model Chrombooks than Thinkpads.

Am I crazy? What do you all think of all of this?

[that1nerd]

Recently, I had a chance to play with a Yoga 2 Pro. It was a pretty interesting setup for a 2-in-1, but I would hate to use it as a daily driver. Especially because of the 13" 3k resolution display. Lenovo had to preinstall software on it to automatically scale certain windows up to a readable size, and even then, they were a blurry mess. Other windows, such as the command prompt, were so small that I could barely read it without my face being six inches away from the screen.

Ever since Apple released the "Retina" displays, everyone's been trying to say that these 3K/QHD panels are the next innovative leap, but I've always scoffed at them. IMO, unless you have a very large (40+ inch) display that can fully utilize the DPI, QHD is way overkill for most applications.

[emeraldgirl08]

Can you not keep the T61 and buy an additional laptop that fits your high-res and modern component cravings? There are quite a few members here (including myself) who own laptops other than Lenovo. Last time I checked you did not get penalized for owning a non-Lenovo laptop.

My situation is that I have a Chromebook for taking to classes because it is lightweight and the battery life is very good. My X220T is my virtual scratchpad for any quantitative and formulaic scribbles that I often need to do and store in OneNote. My desktop is my go to device for some gaming. So far this arrangement is working fine for me. The number one thing that would kill any chances for an AIO (all-in-one) is the GPU demand for some games I play. At least with the desktop I have the option to buy a video card and install it vs. being stuck with a soldered laptop GPU.

[TTY]

T440s and T440p models are available with FHD IPS panels. T540p and W540 models are available with 3K IPS panels. A good place to find specs is
http://lenovo.com/psref

EDIT: i have now seen your other thread, and it seems as if you don't consider T440s or T440p models.

[ThinkRob]

Why stay loyal?

Well, I'm not a big fan of brand loyalty in general. That said, I keep buying Lenovo notebooks for a couple reasons. Specifically, that there are only a couple manufacturers that make subnotebooks/ultralights with pointing sticks. Of those, only Toshiba and Lenovo manage to make some that work reasonably well and look suitable in a business setting (i.e. no super shiny plastics, subdued contours and colors, etc.) After a couple years of reasonable business offerings Dell apparently suffered a sharp blow to the head and decided that bright colors and shiny surfaces would look great on their pointing-stick-equipped Latitude models (and their ultra-thin ones only have trackpads. Oops.)

Between the two, Lenovo's offerings (X2xx and X1C) have better screen resolution choices than Toshiba's (Z30, which only has an FHD touchscreen option) and a slightly better keyboard.

So that's pretty much it. As soon as the Z30 is updated to include a better screen and a better keyboard, I may get that. It's certainly cheaper, and honestly I like the exterior design almost as much if not more than the X1C.

That said, Lenovo is one of the few manufacturers that's still doing honest-to-god innovation research past what others are doing (i.e. "What can we make a profit on by having Foxconn/Wistron design/build for us?") The Yoga 3 hinge, the X1C thermal management and chassis structure, and especially the new ThinkStation design are all brilliant pieces of mechanical design, and they tickle both the engineering and artistic sides of my brain. (Still, not a reason to stick with a brand... but cool!)

[pianowizard]

Most laptop brands come up with something nice now and then. In one year, the best laptop might be a Thinkpad. The next year, the best might be a Dell Precision. The year after that, a Panasonic Toughbook. Etc. Etc. It doesn't make sense to stubbornly stick with one brand. I was stubborn between 2002 and 2009, buying Thinkpads almost exclusively. After going through 45 Thinkpads and realizing I wasn't 100% happy with any of them, I decided to try more non-Thinkpads. I have bought 20 laptops since 2010, only one of which was a Thinkpad (an X31). I still haven't found a laptop I'm 100% satisfied with, but on the whole I like my recent laptops more than the ones (mostly Thinkpads) I bought between 2002 and 2009. This probably isn't because Dell, Gateway, HP, Panasonic, Sony etc. are superior to Lenovo, but because I can find better laptops by broadening my search. It's just common sense!

I used to frequent the forum on notebookreview.com, where I clashed with ZaZ on numerous occasions. But there's one thing on which we had complete agreement: Just buy whatever laptop has the features that you want; brand doesn't matter as much as some people believe. Some product lines are indeed crappy, like Dell's Inspirons and HP's Pavilions, but almost every brand has one or two crappy lines. If you look at satisfaction surveys or reliability surveys, you'll see that the differences among brands are rather small. Back in the 1990s and early 2000s, IBM was head and shoulders above all other PC brands, and back then it made sense to be loyal to Thinkpads. But in the past decade or so, no one stood out, except Apple, but I am not ready to abandon Windows.

Some people believe a certain brand is consistently better than others, but that's usually because they don't pay enough attention to those other brands, or are prejudiced against them.

If you can't live without the trackpoint, then that's a valid reason for restricting yourself to Thinkpads. Keyboard quality could be an additional reason. But that's it.

[Norway Pad]

Being loyal to brands is almost a science. It has its give and take, and is something that concerns more than just laptops. For me, personally, being able to stay with one brand, particularly when it comes to cars and computers, is preferred. That gives me the possibility to stay with something I'm familiar with, I know how to upgrade it, I know to fix it if it breaks, and I know where resources can be found when I'm stuck. I know what each model in the range is meant to do which makes sure I can always buy the most suitable ones, and I don't have to put effort into dealing with a change. Now, there are also some drawbacks. Staying exclusively with one brand takes away the opportunity to try something else, and expand the horizon. Maybe something else actually IS better. Maybe something else would give a huge advantage that the current brand can't give. Luckily, I am aware of this and try my best to play around with other brands, like my friend's new laptop, a new phone at the store, or borrow a new car from the dealer for a day. Just to get some input. Then you also come to the point where your brand gives you some hassle, and you have to start considering if that outweighs the advantages. My current BMW has broken down a couple of times, where I had to carry out roadside repair (Myself) or have it towed back home. This hasn't happened with the other brand of cars I have owned, and could lead to me leaving the brand. But the overall feeling and driving pleasure of the car outweighed the problems, and I have decided that my next car will be a BMW, too. And after all: I know BMWs so well that I knew how to fix it every time.

When it comes to computers, I started buying Thinkpads simply because I had used them at work for some years and knew what they did. They were sturdy, nice looking, and then there was the magic I felt that one time my boss let me borrow his 770. It could do more than my desktop could do at the time, had crazy resolution, and it could even play a DVD. Some of that magic has always stayed with me, and still strikes me when I open that black rubberized box, which is a Thinkpad.

Now, my computing needs and requirements are obviously less demanding than others'. I have used other laptop brands as well over the years, but never found anyone that I thought gave me something major that my T3x, T4x and T6x Thinkpads didn't. A little disappointment over the loss of the 4:3 IPS, but since every other brand went that same way, nothing could be done. But then came the 440. My wife borrowed one from work, but it ended up sitting on my shelf for a long time not being used. They had changed the design to something unfamiliar, and the Trackpad "buttons" (Or lack there of) made it hard to use. In a way I felt angry and kind of cheated. Why should I have to go through the trouble learning to use something new that didn't work from the beginning? Maybe the new touchpad would eventually have worked well for me, if I had put some effort into getting used to it? No big deal anymore, as Lenovo has brought the buttons back. But the design, the "magic" that once appealed to me, was gone. The new Thinkpad didn't give me anything that any other brand of laptop couldn't give me, the feeling was gone, and a drawback was added to the way it was operated.

So at one point the drawbacks of being loyal overrides the advantages. With Thinkpad I'm now at a turning point. After my T420, W530 or whatever from those generations can't serve me anymore, I'm not sure if my new modern laptop will be a Thinkpad. Luckily that choice doesn't have to be made yet. My current ones serve me well, and there's an odd ball out there named Helix that I would like to check out. So I still have something going with Thinkpads, but I make sure to stay tuned on what Dell has to offer too.

[tarvoke]

it feels like a lot of us here may only be loyal to the past, whether collecting or using - a (not so surprising) number of us here, worked for big blue in the past, or lenovo in the present.

we each of us seem to find the branch of the tree that suits us. by force or design or luck or preference.

I will never buy a "new" thinkpad again - (this may be a lie, I dislike the absolute "never") - but my best-beloved x61t is still more than good enough workstation for everyday; x200t is "too nice for everyday" (it is basically ++x61t!!! and. more.) and x220t entirely nicer than I could ever deserve (George was entirely on the mark calling its speed as "a hunted deer") ((if only I can motivate into replacing the 220 palmrest so there's no trackpad anymore...))

2 machines I told myself I would use forever?
- 600X. nonpareil. gorgeous work of art. indestructable. screams "thinkpad".
- G3-PPC "Pismo" (why, yes, my past-life with IBM was back in the AIM/OS-9000 days...)

and yet, both (ok let's face it, I had like 3 of each of those, ha) have long since been donated to worthy causes. I truly miss those classic machines.

so, it seems my loyalty is only to the past.

my only experience with the lenovo-post-ibm-lenovo is x100e, and it ?wasn't?exactly?bad?, but, man, that thing has had more issues than any thinkpad I ever owned, work or personal.

[pianowizard]

I know how to upgrade it

In terms of the ease of upgrading, I don't think sticking with one brand helps much. Even within the same brand, different product lines often have drastically different designs, and different generations of the same line (e.g. the T series) can also differ a lot. So you would still have to relearn how to access, say, the RAM slots, when you upgrade from one Thinkpad to another.

HP and Dell provide detailed service manuals just like Lenovo. And even for brands that don't make their service manuals available on their web sites, they are easy to find through Google, and YouTube also has tons of instructional videos.

I know what each model in the range is meant to do which makes sure I can always buy the most suitable ones, and I don't have to put effort into dealing with a change.

For at least a decade, the top three business-class laptop brands (HP, Dell and Lenovo/IBM) have had virtually identical ranges of business laptops addressing the same computational needs. (The main exception is that Lenovo had 17-inch mobile workstations only briefly.) It's as if they have been copying each other. So, whatever model of Thinkpad is most suitable for you, there is an equivalent HP Elitebook/Probook or Dell Precision/Latitude.

I am not arguing that people shouldn't stick with Thinkpads. I am just saying the different brands aren't really that different. Different, but not THAT different. Since around 2009, my shopping decisions have been based mainly on specs (e.g. weight, screen resolution), physical appeal of the laptop, and price. Brand no longer matters much IMO. When I had mostly Thinkpads and they almost never had problems, I thought that was because they were Thinkpads. But after switching to mostly non-Thinkpads, my laptops have continued to be impressively problem-free.

Like I said, I did buy a Thinkpad X31 in the past 5 years. I chose it not because it's a Thinkpad, but because its specs met my requirements: a small enough footprint to fit a tiny desk, and having a dock with both serial and parallel ports.

[Norway Pad]

Since you quote me, I will comment.

My above story is what works for me, but might be different for you. The certain similarity between Thinkpad models has indeed helped me, even though I have to admit I changed the mobo in my wife's Dell Latitude without reading any manual. For the knowledge about the brand and models, I might know some about Dell. But for HP, I wouldn't know a consumer line HP from a business line one. So I'd be lost trying to buy a suitable HP without doing some research first. For the purpose of widening the horizon, that would be a good thing. If that wasn't a goal, it would feel wasted.

From what I see, I suspect you and me are at the opposite sides of the user spectrum. I am strictly a hobby user, while you seem to have more a professional driven approach to IT. If you do IT as a hobby, you apparently run it at a more professional level. The purchasing factors you mention, specs and price, is what I'm dealing with when I buy stuff for work. (Non-IT business) No brand loyalty based on feelings would be accepted there; price and specs will in most cases be the deciding factor. Previous positive experiences might count a bit, but not too much it seems. An inappropriate choice of a certain vendor could get me fired if this was traced back to pure "loyalty" from my part. While for my hobby, I might not always pick what gives the most bang for the buck on the paper, and I can allow my feelings to play a part too. That's a good thing, otherwise my hobby would have been too much like work and wouldn't be a relaxing hobby any more. Your experience might be different.

[pianowizard]

But for HP, I wouldn't know a consumer line HP from a business line one.

Well, I just told you: all the Elitebooks and Probooks are business-class. HP also has ZBooks though I know little about them.

From what I see, I suspect you and me are at the opposite sides of the user spectrum. I am strictly a hobby user, while you seem to have more a professional driven approach to IT. If you do IT as a hobby, you apparently run it at a more professional level.

Nope, I am a computer hobbyist just like most people are on this forum. All the computers that I use for work are my personal computers. I don't let IT staff touch my computers because if they manage my computers, they would not even allow me to have an administer account.

[jdk]

There used to be a time where the Thinkpad stood above the competition. The hinges, the IPS displays, and the frame were unique. Now I think the gap has narrowed. Lenovo has gone away from a lot of what differentiated the Thinkpad, and other companies have managed to catch up quality wise. Among the big three, Dell, Lenovo, HP, I don't think there's much difference in the business class machines, but only two of those are ever going to be used seriously in the enterprise/government space anymore. There's also Apple, which is the trend setter, and like them or not, they also have very high quality machines.

I'm starting to believe that the best thing that happened in the past few years was when Dell went private again. Last year's XPS 15 and now the new XPS 13 are receiving very good reviews, and I like the new Latitude's design over that brownish-orange monstrosity they did back in 2011. None of the other companies are doing things like Project Sputnik (though to be fair, that was started when Dell was still public). It seems like Dell and the mess that HP has become are headed in opposite directions organizationally.

[brchan]

The thing that still keeps me with Thinkpads are the best combination of keyboards and trackpoints (besides the xx40 range). Sure, the new keyboard layout might not be to everyone's liking, but the tactile feedback of the keys and trackpoint (with dedicated buttons) really can't be beat.

When IBM still had the Thinkpad brand, they indeed led the pack, but even after the brand was sold to Lenovo, I think it still is (though to a lesser extent). Also, although the build quality and fit and finish may not be as good as during IBM's time (the feel of a T4x is amazing), it is still quite good, especially considering the prices. I have also found servicing most Lenovo Thinkpads to be easier than IBM Thinkpads.

[ZaZ]

There's also Apple, which is the trend setter, and like them or not, they also have very high quality machines.

While they're very nicely made, from a durability perspective, I'd take a ThinkPad, EliteBook or Latitude over a MBP. Plus, there's no accidental coverage if desired.

When IBM still had the Thinkpad brand, they indeed led the pack, but even after the brand was sold to Lenovo, I think it still is (though to a lesser extent).

I think they just need to be a bit better than the next guy. They can make expensive top quality notebooks, but few will buy them in today's market as cost is the leading factor for most in my experience.

the feel of a T4x is amazing.

While the T4x machines may have felt great and had fantastic keyboards, they were flawed machines.

[waterloo]

** CANADIAN MEMBER **

I bought the Apple Macbook Pro Retina recently after doing months of research because it was actually the similar or cheaper in price to a equivalent HP, Dell or Lenovo.

ThinkPad W540 ~$2,600.00 (with upgraded display)
-- Add 1TB mSATA ~$600
-- Add 16GB memory kit ~$160
-- Would have had RAID 1 or 0
Total: ~$3800.00 after tax

Dell Precision M4800 ~$3,750.00 (with upgraded display) <-- This would have had the most ram since they only offered 2x 4GB or 2x 8GB
-- Add 16GB memory kit ~$160
-- Add 1TB mSATA ~$600
-- Adding RAID 1 or 0 required me to buy another hard drive from DELL
Total: ~$5096.30 after tax

HP Zbook 15 G2 (online website said to find a local retailer. Would've been $4,000 - $5,000.00 . Freaken nuts!?

Apple Macbook Pro Retina - ~$2,950.00
-- Already included the 1TB SSD & 16GB ram plus the AppleCare Protection plan
Total: ~$3,630.00 with S/H + tax
^^ Then I had to buy some adapters but still kept it under $3,700.00...

Even though the Dell, HP and Lenovo laptops have Quadro GPUs, RAID functionality, ability to run 32GB of ram, ability to tweak aftermarket and some user serviceability, the price difference was too steep. Also Apple products have a higher resale value in case I ever want to sell

[pianowizard]

** CANADIAN MEMBER **

It's good you mentioned that because in the U.S., Lenovo, Dell and HP laptops are usually deeply discounted. So, even though the models you listed have high list prices, the actual prices are much lower. Prices are even better on the outlet sites for these laptops, especially the Dell Business Outlet where 20-30% discount codes are often available and where the premium models come with 3 years of warranty by default.

[Cigarguy]

Not brand loyal though I tend to stick to familiar brands. Loyalty works both ways. Would have stick with newer Thinkpads but since the days of the T420/T520 and the classic keyboard change, I'm done with Thinkpads. Still own many and love my older Thinkpads--with a T60 being my normal daily machine--but I'd rather go Dell or HP business class for newer machines.

[waterloo]

** CANADIAN MEMBER **

It's good you mentioned that because in the U.S., Lenovo, Dell and HP laptops are usually deeply discounted. So, even though the models you listed have high list prices, the actual prices are much lower. Prices are even better on the outlet sites for these laptops, especially the Dell Business Outlet where 20-30% discount codes are often available and where the premium models come with 3 years of warranty by default.

No luck. I used their websites to configure & looked for coupons but still was very expensive

[RasmusP]

So that's pretty much it. As soon as the Z30 is updated to include a better screen and a better keyboard, I may get that. It's certainly cheaper, and honestly I like the exterior design almost as much if not more than the X1C.

That looks like an amazing machine: good CPU selection, seems sturdy, 2 RAM slots, IPS 1920x1020, mouse stick and fairly easy access to components. The downside seems to be that it is using a non-standard harddisk (maybe mSATA?). Also, I didn't find a description online of how to replace the keyboard. I'm on my third keyboard on the X200s.

You say the keyboard is worse? Compared to classic TP keyboards or the new Sony-style keyboards?

One laptop I'm looking forward to see is the Librem 13, which unfortunately may not have a stick mouse.

[RealBlackStuff]

How to replace Z30 KB, see here: http://www.laptopkeyboard.com/Guides.ph ... %29/KBT102

[ThinkRob]

That looks like an amazing machine: good CPU selection, seems sturdy, 2 RAM slots, IPS 1920x1020, mouse stick and fairly easy access to components. The downside seems to be that it is using a non-standard harddisk (maybe mSATA?). Also, I didn't find a description online of how to replace the keyboard. I'm on my third keyboard on the X200s.

You say the keyboard is worse? Compared to classic TP keyboards or the new Sony-style keyboards?

One laptop I'm looking forward to see is the Librem 13, which unfortunately may not have a stick mouse.

Worse compared to both. I actually very much like the new ThinkPad keyboards. In fact, in terms of feel, I'd rate them above the "classic" ones. (Layout is... well... personally I'm not a big fan of any laptop layout, so I kinda think that they all suck in that regard.) The Z30's keyboard doesn't feel terrible, but it's a little lacking in travel and the activation point is a lot softer than I'd prefer.

Oh, and the TrackPoint is still the best pointing stick implementation out there. Toshiba's isn't bad (IMHO it's about the same as Dell's), but yeah... IBM's (obviously now Lenovo's) implementation feels the best to me.

[brchan]

I would have to agree with the feel and touch of the new thinkpad keyboards. The island style one on my W530 has better feel than the one in a T420 I breifly owned, although it could have been due to a different keyboard manufacturer. However, it still did not match the feel or responsiveness as the keyboards in my T61, and isn't comparable to the one in my 600X.

[ThinkRob]

I would have to agree with the feel and touch of the new thinkpad keyboards. The island style one on my W530 has better feel than the one in a T420 I breifly owned, although it could have been due to a different keyboard manufacturer. However, it still did not match the feel or responsiveness as the keyboards in my T61, and isn't comparable to the one in my 600X.

Keyboards are subjective. Use whichever one you want.

You know, I actually went back and used my 600X the other day. And I gotta say... I actually prefer the X1 Carbon's feel to that. Heresy, I know.

(Then again, I'm in the Cult of the Buckling Spring, so to me laptops are inherently a compromise...)

[brchan]

I actually liked the keyboard more on my 770 out of all the Thinkpads I own. The key travel is quite longer and feels more crisp, but the keyboard flex was slightly annoying.

[KentT]

For personal use, I buy used business class laptops. Normally they are Lenovo ThinkPads or Dell Latitude models, with some HP EliteBooks occasionally. I tend to be 4-5 years old on laptop choices. Budget, ease of repairs and maintenance, and ease of obtaining parts and accessories key. I need durable machines which can survive spastic me. And take the odd bounce or two. Especially when muscles have a mind of their own.

[brchan]

Unless I see a high quality thinkpad with 7 row and the functionality and design of T420 or T60 Thinkpads, I am done with Lenovo. If I were to get a new laptop, it would probably be the new Panasonic toughbook 54 with 1080p 1000nit ips screen, which is about the same price as a mid spec w541. Of course, the W541 is much faster, but even entry level processors today are more than fast enough for internet and media content. Trackpoint and keyboard feedback will be missed, but you get a much more rugged, serviceable, quality, machine.

[ZaZ]

You can buy a FHD T450s, which is lighter and has the SSD+HDD option, with four years of accidental/on-site coverage and still have $1,000 left in your pocket compared to the Panasonic. I don't need the build quality Toughbooks offer. Plus, you'd get the trackpoint and keyboard feel you like. I wouldn't buy a touchscreen notebook, but that's me.

[Puppy]

T450s has a lot of issues. I'd wait for P50s (Jan 2016) or the Retro project (unknown release date yet).

[TonyJZX]

Lenovo has been dead to me for a long time.

To me the last great Lenovo was the T420/420S. I have no need to buyer newer than that for obvious reasons. I wouldnt buy a laptop with the 1,366 x 768p screen.

The T400/410/420 are my home use laptops.

The X200/201 is my portable unit.

I'm also fond of the HP Elitebook series and the Dell Latitude/Precision line but their versions arent as suitable to the way I work.

[Hans Gruber]

It would be nice if they brought back the 16:10 screen to the Thinkpad. Perhaps IBM should buy Thinkpad back from China.