Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#121 Post by Ibthink » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:26 am

pianowizard wrote:I don't do anything graphics-intensive, so I prefer integrated GPUs. What's the smallest AC adapter that I can safely use for a model with integrated GPU?
You can use a 45 W charger on models with the iGPU: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetail ... E#overview

There is also an upcoming ultra-slim 65 W adapter announced on CES 2016 for the ThinkPad X1 Carbon line: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/CES-2016/D ... -p/2242065 Since the X1 Carbon uses the same power plug as all other ThinkPads, it should be possible to use this one on other ULV dual-core models too. Its even smaller then the 45 W adapter. This one is coming out sometime this spring.
pianowizard wrote:What's the new clickpad's travel distance? The main problem with the T540p's clickpad was that it sank too deep.

Also, do you know if touchpads with proper buttons will ever return?
Not sure about the travel distance. The new ClickPad has a different mechanism, it does only click at the bottom edge, not at the top (like the T540p ClickPad did). Its also much less noisy and the clicking feels nicer.

Touchpads with buttons did already return on ThinkPads, but for now, only on ThinkPad P50 (which is what I am using right now) and ThinkPad P70. They have a new UltraNav with 6 buttons (three for the TrackPoint and three for the TouchPad, picture: http://www.notebookcheck.com/fileadmin/ ... 87a49f.jpg). So the question in the future will be if and when other machines will also receive this new UltraNav. Lenovo descripes this as a Workstation-specific feature.
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#122 Post by Puppy » Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:10 am

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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#123 Post by ajkula66 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:18 am

Puppy wrote:P50 release good summary https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-P ... rue#M56901
While ThinkPads of the IBM era most certainly have had their fair share of QC issues, it seems like Lenovo has just completely dropped the ball in that area. Quite sad really, since their initial offerings were arguably better in that respect than IBM's own...

P70 with a proper keyboard layout would have me part with a significant amount of $$$$ in a heartbeat...presuming that at least some of the current problems get resolved as well...
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#124 Post by lophiomys » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:31 pm

I think that is in realm of wishful thinking. After browsing over the "P50/P70 Problems Master Thread" on the Lenovo forum and comparing this to the price tag of the P50/P70, it looks like Lenovo has completely lost their production competence.

Lenovo's last chance will be a top notch Classic Thinkpad free of defects and free of hassles,
introduced with a fair price and a money back service on any problem or shortcoming with the computer.

If I'd buy a new and expensive laptop from Lenovo, looking at their performance (and lies) during the last decade,
they would only get one third of the price at the end of every hassle free year (just for the first 3 years of course.)
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#125 Post by Puppy » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:34 pm

lophiomys wrote:it looks like Lenovo has completely lost their production competence.
Let's wait for new .60 models user experience but I fear there will be similar quality / basic functionality issues. As you said, anything beyond a toy like Android phone is out of Lenovo competence now.
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#126 Post by hhhd1 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:11 pm

lophiomys wrote:I think that is in realm of wishful thinking. After browsing over the "P50/P70 Problems Master Thread" on the Lenovo forum and comparing this to the price tag of the P50/P70, it looks like Lenovo has completely lost their production competence.
it looks like the huge price tag is to cover their losses from RMA/Warranty parts replacement.

after looking at the thread you mentioned: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-P ... -p/2273807
and add to that LCD quality ...

it looks like you'd have better experience buying a random consumer grade laptop from Asus or Dell.
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#127 Post by Puppy » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:17 am

hhhd1 wrote:it looks like you'd have better experience buying a random consumer grade laptop from Asus or Dell.
Or Acer.
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#128 Post by johnny9fingers » Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:43 am

Puppy wrote:
hhhd1 wrote:it looks like you'd have better experience buying a random consumer grade laptop from Asus or Dell.
Or Acer.
Or HP
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#129 Post by Troels » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:16 pm

Or V-tech.. hey! wait a minute, I just ordered a P50 - and am hoping for the best.

Honestly, what was more important for me was the keyboard, trackpad and build quality - and potentially a good screen. The Dell Precision 5510 was the only alternative for me, but obvious stuff as that woven carbon fibre look, keyboard and clickpad with no dedicated buttons tick all the wrong boxes.

So for me the P50 is the least worst solution. Rushed, but least worst. At least service here is still carried out by IBM and replacement parts are also handled by IBM.

I'll post a review with my honest thoughts compared to my T60p.

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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#130 Post by Puppy » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:14 am

Troels wrote:So for me the P50 is the least worst solution. Rushed, but least worst. At least service here is still carried out by IBM and replacement parts are also handled by IBM.

I'll post a review with my honest thoughts compared to my T60p.
The FHD or 4K screen ? I am still stuck with X220 but as the extended warranty expires this April I am looking for an upgrade. The hope for Retro ThinkPad is slowly fading, especially after Lenovo no-communication and P50/P70 QC issues that will probably continue with whole .60 models and becomes future Lenovo ThinkPad standard quality :( I am still decided to revert back to small self-built desktop PC because of the crappy 6-row keyboard layout.
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#131 Post by Ibthink » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:38 am

Retro ThinkPad is progressing as far as I know.

Re P50/P70 issues: That sadly quite normal when new hardware launches these days, not only for Lenovo. Look at Microsoft Surface Book, or Dell XPS 15 Skylake, all of these are or were plagued by issues. Most of the P50/P70 issues are software based, and they are slowly eliminated one by one. P50/P70 are very good machines. I love my P50.

Regarding the rest of the Tx60 lineup, we will see how they will do. Notice that many designs are straight taken from Tx40/Tx50 line (T460, T560, X260), so my guess would be that these shouldn´t have many issues, since they are based on working designs. Nonetheless, there is no guarantee. Nothing made by humans is flawless^^
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#132 Post by lophiomys » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:10 am

Re P50/70 issues:
Ibthink,
So you are stating, it would be normal that I spend 3000++ USD/EUR
and it would be normal to expect an unfinished product with lots of issues in softwar AND hardware?
You cannot be serious!

Re: new Surface Book 3:2 IPS 3000x2000
A customer of mine just bought that one and did not report any issues with it.

Last but not least,
We all like to know more about the Retro project.
How far do you know?

I more and more suspect that those biased Retro questionnaires and vage statements about the Retro project from various sides are well calculated marketing tactics, because NOTHING substantial realized, including the last Anniversary Edition.

Kind Regards,
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#133 Post by Ibthink » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:27 am

lophiomys wrote:Re: new Surface Book 3:2 IPS 3000x2000
A customer of mine just bought that one and did not report any issues with it.
Take a look here: http://www.ibtimes.com/microsoft-slamme ... bs-2276397

It took Microsoft nearly 6 months to fix a basic problem (sleep mode not working correctly). And also, Surface Pro 3 was and still is plagued by some issues, which Microsoft never fixed.
lophiomys wrote:and it would be normal to expect an unfinished product with lots of issues in softwar AND hardware?
I don´t have any problems with the hardware of my P50. I have only encountered two issues: Speaker popping sound (which was fixed with a driver update last week) and HDMI not working sometimes (which is said to be fixed with an update sometime this month).

Being an early adopter of hardware means that you are often still facing some issues.
lophiomys wrote:We all like to know more about the Retro project.
How far do you know?
I heard that Lenovo is prototyping the device internally and with their manufacturing partners, which means that a release is highly likely. No idea when though, but it might be next year.
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#134 Post by Puppy » Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:43 pm

Ibthink wrote:It took Microsoft nearly 6 months to fix a basic problem (sleep mode not working correctly).
While Lenovo have not fixed it yet for 15 months https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Windows-ba ... -p/2037680

Again, if Lenovo wants up to $7000 (or 6700 EUR :eek: ) for a workstation no one expects being a betatester for that money spent.
Ibthink wrote:I heard that Lenovo is prototyping the device internally and with their manufacturing partners, which means that a release is highly likely. No idea when though, but it might be next year.
Well, this is information based on your internal sources. The official public communication is "we have not promised anything". If the device is in prototyping stage the display aspect ratio is known. Still just silence ...
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#135 Post by Troels » Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:22 pm

Puppy wrote:The FHD or 4K screen ? I am still stuck with X220 but as the extended warranty expires this April I am looking for an upgrade. The hope for Retro ThinkPad is slowly fading, especially after Lenovo no-communication and P50/P70 QC issues that will probably continue with whole .60 models and becomes future Lenovo ThinkPad standard quality :( I am still decided to revert back to small self-built desktop PC because of the crappy 6-row keyboard layout.
4k, along with Xeon 1505, 32 GB ECC DDR4, M2000M, 500 GB HDD which will be replaced with 950 Pro SSDs at some point in time. Ordered 14 days ago. By the way I'm "tk-don" on Lenovo's forum. I forgot my password for my old account which was created with an email address that doesn't exist any longer.
It appears that problems reported by non-US residents are not responded to/taken care of by Lenovo representatives on Lenovo's forum. Maybe they expect regional customer service departments to take care of these issues/complaints.

I will definitely have to get used to the 6 row keyboard. It is sad, but in the old days one could just go elsewhere to Dell or HP. But their solutions appear to be even worse nowadays. Maybe they are trying to appeal to the Apple crowd. It is frustrating to watch Dell's attempt - namely the Precision 9510, which is a workstation series notebook. A Macbook or Macbook Pro is not a workstation. So what Dell is trying to do by alienating loyal Precision series customers, I'm not sure.
Lenovo made the same mistake with the *40/*41 generation. "Space" grey plastics instead of the dull black. Simplified Mac-style clickpad.

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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#136 Post by Puppy » Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:48 pm

Troels wrote:4k, along with Xeon 1505, 32 GB ECC DDR4, M2000M, 500 GB HDD which will be replaced with 950 Pro SSDs at some point in time.
Nice config, hope you get a better batch of the 4K screen, if exists. I would double check the 950 Pro SSDs user experience since P70 currently have issues even with Lenovo own proprietary SSDs. We already know that custom firmware is used in those Lenovo overpriced SSDs and there are still BIOS issues.
Troels wrote:By the way I'm "tk-don" on Lenovo's forum. I forgot my password for my old account which was created with an email address that doesn't exist any longer.
Post private message to a forum moderator (JaneL), I think it is possible to recover or merge these accounts.
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#137 Post by Puppy » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:16 pm

Troels wrote:4k, along with Xeon 1505, 32 GB ECC DDR4, M2000M, 500 GB HDD which will be replaced with 950 Pro SSDs at some point in time.
P50 does not detect 950 Pro M.2 SSD at BIOS level :( https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-P ... -p/2276297
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#138 Post by Puppy » Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:50 pm

hhhd1 wrote:it looks like the huge price tag is to cover their losses from RMA/Warranty parts replacement.
Just another "happy" customer returning P50 4K due to poor screen quality. Wondering what ratio is required to trigger Lenovo finally realize that ?
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#139 Post by Puppy » Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:02 am

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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#140 Post by Troels » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 pm

Puppy wrote:Just another "happy" customer returning P50 4K due to poor screen quality. Wondering what ratio is required to trigger Lenovo finally realize that ?
FYI: I'm not returning mine, but I'll file a complaint to IBM/Lenovo service department this Tuesday demanding a screen replacement. They are even welcome to torture themselves with this display for a few weeks if they want. Everything is great about the screen except for the viewing angles. No color inversion or anything like on TN displays. But it's as if one of those horrible privacy filters have been applied. It literally looks like a +/- 40 degrees viewing angle before brigtness reaches 50%. When the face is a feet away from the screen as it typically is when using a laptop, viewing angles are so low that it is useless for photo editing.

No wonder why Sharp is near bankrupcy if this is the kind of real-life quality they can deliver.

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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#141 Post by hhhd1 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:44 am

I read a comment on NBR that the P50 bricks when you upgrade the ram while running certain BIOS versions, the solution was to remove the backup battery.

Lenovo issued a bios update that made the problem worse, and now not even a battery reset fixes the issues.

(the 2nd sentence I am not 100% sure off, just based on some forum posts)
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#142 Post by Puppy » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:49 pm

Troels wrote:But it's as if one of those horrible privacy filters have been applied. It literally looks like a +/- 40 degrees viewing angle before brigtness reaches 50%.
Known issue. Blame Lenovo, it is typical cutting costs feature. The new one will be the same (or worse in different aspect). It is not defect, it is feature Lenovo has ordered to save money. The purpose is to improve backlight luminance in direct view (and reviews) at no cost in favor of viewing angle brigtness stability. Check 10+ years old IPS panel in any ThinkPad model. Does it have the same "feature" ? Not.

Wondering what is the real price of that panel ? $50 ? In a $3000+ laptop. Lenovo is hopeless.

Both Sharp and LG.Display can deliver decent panel, if there is demand.
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#143 Post by Troels » Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:04 pm

If it is a known issue, how come some find the 4K screen decent and fine? They can't be (that) blind.
No, but all the older IPS panels either yellowed in no time (LG) and all had low gamut. :lol: No, I get your point, but I don't think that the older IPS panels are good by today's standard, when one knows how good it can get. They definitely were market leaders up until very recently, though. And I agree that their viewing angles are awesome in comparison.

Maybe I should just buy an LQ156D1JW04 panel, unless Lenovo "blacklists" 3rd party display panels nowadays (?). It might be the easiest option.
EDIT:
On the other hand, look at this review of a notebook with a Sharp screen, especially the images showing the BIOS menu:
http://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-Schen ... 303.0.html :evil:

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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#144 Post by Puppy » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:48 am

Troels wrote:If it is a known issue, how come some find the 4K screen decent and fine? They can't be (that) blind.
Many people do not recognize difference between TN and IPS panel, so yes, they are. The same for resolution. Another aspect is that they have not seen a true/pro desktop monitor yet so they think such crap is a normal display quality. Also notice substantial quality decline of laptop displays during last few years (low PWM, uneven backlight, backlight bleeding, PenTile matrice, low contrast, color shift, image retention etc), especially the ones Lenovo order. The IPS tag (or laptop price tag) no longer quarantees any overall quality. In laptop market you are lost, especially when multiple display vendors come to play. For desktop monitors you can rely on NEC or Eizo brand (yet).

The good thing is that more expensive mobile devices with better IPS or OLED displays finally breaks that trend. So question like "Why my $400 mobile phone has better display than $4000 laptop ?" will raise more frequently, I hope. Although I still believe that at least 50% of OLED display devices owners wouldn't notice if you replaced it with cheapest TN display :wink:

All of this is just another reason for me to think about return to desktop PC because I don't have to play the display lottery there. Lenovo is not willing (while it is technically possible) to deliver proper display quality in $4000 or $7000 laptop, so why to bother. While 12 years ago the cheapest ThinkPad R series (R51) delivered good and predicable display quality.
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#145 Post by Puppy » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:36 am

Troels wrote:On the other hand, look at this review of a notebook with a Sharp screen, especially the images showing the BIOS menu:
Looks horrible but it can be the camera. The brightness distribution in the table below is not that bad. Unfortunately the PWM information is missing. I still believe it is a specific Lenovo issue that most of displays in current Lenovo models use such low PWM frequency compared to competition.
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#146 Post by Puppy » Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:19 am

P50s 3K review http://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Thi ... 463.0.html

Screen flickering / PWM detected
The display backlight flickers at 219 Hz (Likely utilizing PWM) Flickering detected at a brightness setting of 90 % and below

There must be something wrong with the way Lenovo controls displays in recent laptops. No other vendor has such issues in majority of its production.
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#147 Post by hhhd1 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:48 am

I think Lenovo chooses those screens specifically, probably saving 5 USD per laptop, and in large volumes it counts.

Since business customers will buy them anyway, probably as a part of larger contract or something.

Lenovo has previously used the LCD that is usually used in 300 USD laptops in T530.
( see my post in this thread: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 45#p778045 )
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#148 Post by Puppy » Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:01 pm

hhhd1 wrote:I think Lenovo chooses those screens specifically, probably saving 5 USD per laptop, and in large volumes it counts.

Since business customers will buy them anyway, probably as a part of larger contract or something.
Not really. I see more HP or Dell laptops in business (among MacBooks) than Lenovo lately.
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#149 Post by Troels » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:28 pm

Puppy wrote:Many people do not recognize difference between TN and IPS panel, so yes, they are. The same for resolution. (...)
Thinkpads are corporate machines, right? Then they are configured to suit the application in order to save money for the company buying them. Hence, configurations with a 4K AdobeRGB display such as what the P50 can be configured with is ONLY done when the application REQUIRES it. Thus they presumably know what to expect. For example people in the press/photo/graphics design industry would gain from having the 4K display while almost everyone else won't have a need. For example my software coding does not improve from having a 4K display in 15.6". I can't fit more lines of code on the display and still be able to read them compared to FHD. :)
Puppy wrote:Looks horrible but it can be the camera. The brightness distribution in the table below is not that bad. Unfortunately the PWM information is missing. I still believe it is a specific Lenovo issue that most of displays in current Lenovo models use such low PWM frequency compared to competition.
The brightness distribution in the table does only tell the brightness level perpendicular to the display. My P50 4K display measures within about 94% using my colorimeter to measure the brightness at various locations.

I really wish I could see the higher end Dells and HP laptops with 4K displays in real life somewhere.

Puppy
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Re: Looks like a new W7xx (edit: 17" P70, and P50 replacing W541) is coming out? (small pics)

#150 Post by Puppy » Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:49 pm

Troels wrote:I really wish I could see the higher end Dells and HP laptops with 4K displays in real life somewhere.
At least it doesn't have the low PWM frequency issue in whole brightness range. And yes, it affects your software coding.

Whether you need an AdobeRGB coverage or not is irrelevant, such crappy component does not have a place in a $3000+ machine, that's all. As hhhd1 wrote, Lenovo saved $5 on that component to deliver crap they do last few years over and over. All their production have substantial display quality issues regardless of the price tag. Ironically cheapest E560 actually has a better (FHD) display than P50 and is PWM flicker free.

Well, instead of proper display you got the disk activity status LED indicator, that's what you paid those $3000+ for :lol:
ThinkPad (1992 - 2012): R51, X31, X220, Tablet 8

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