Why the ThinkPad P50/P70s have a failed design *pictures*

[micrex22]

So I finally got around to checking out the P50 and P70:
http://shop.lenovo.com/ca/en/laptops/th ... eries/p70/

But there's a few things I noticed.
#1 the price tag (at least of the P70) is high enough that Lenovo could implement classic ThinkPad features that were discontinued for cost reasons. Or hey, even make custom 4:3 displays.
#2 The same crappy chiclet keyboard with reduced travel distance is still being used.
#3 The laptop's footprint is way too wide, nobody wants to carry something that ugly around. Case in point, here's my T601 compared against a modern Core i7 HP ProBook:
http://i.imgur.com/NNXIlw3.jpg
Maybe it's just me, but I don't want to carry around laptops that large and bulky. And that HP laptop doesn't have anything special, yet it's as thick and wide as a P50/P70 (the point being, manufacturers are deliberately making them that footprint and not necessarily 'forced' to due to the mobile xeon).
#4 that disgusting overly-large touchpad; if I want to use a proper touchpad I'll use a macbook.

THIS is what the P50/P70 should have been:
http://i.imgur.com/gHWo0CW.png
Since Lenovo *insists* on using 6:9 widescreen (really they should be using 6:10), they can cut the bottom portion with their awful touchpad and then cut the top. Voila. But they never will do that. And that's the problem. They keep making ThinkPads that nobody (at least power users) want. I've already accepted this fact which is why I am using a heavily modded T601 (time to get comfortable with a penryn and 8 GB of RAM).

Maybe I'm being a bit overly harsh, but it's always the same story when Lenovo releases a LENOVO ThinkPad.

[QWERTY Andreas]

Let me tell you the truth: if people wanted the design you proposed, they would make it like that to increase profit.

#1: Very few people would buy a 4:3 laptop of today. Aside from some people here on this forum. The keyboard is something that doesn't bother many people. It bothers me, but thats just me.
I think i could get used to the new chiclet design, and the mechanics are the same as the old TP keyboards - so it should not differ that much. The travel migth be a little shorter, but thats how it works with thinner keyboards.

But either way, i have not used the new keyboard so long that i could get used to it - so i cannot say whats better tbh.

#2: See #1

#3: I agree, footprint could be smaller. But take into account that the P50/P70 is carrying some components requirering vastly more power than any T601 does, so they need more cooling. And if you dint mind, look at the frankenpad in my signature. They have to be a little larger to accomondate for the better components.
"Ugly" is subjective. I hear more people call my FP ugly than some crappy consumer notebooks, but its none of their business

#4: Since when did more options become bad? Really, just turn it off then. A large touchpad is good for touchpad users.
Imagine if they cared about the trackpoint users and removed the touchpad. Imagine they did the other thing, and removed the trackpoint buttons/trackpoint because of the touchpad users?
Just learn to deal with it

If the P50/70 was a you suggested, it would probably be the biggest fail to date. Sorry. But you are not the only one buying laptops in this world.

[pianowizard]

#3: I agree, footprint could be smaller. But take into account that the P50/P70 is carrying some components requirering vastly more power than any T601 does, so they need more cooling.

There are two ways to fit more components inside a laptop: make it thicker, or make it larger. Basically, the laptop just needs to have a sufficiently large internal volume. But of course, like most other laptop makers, Lenovo chose the latter approach, because it enables them to minimize thickness. This obsession with thinness is so very counterproductive. It was started by the MacBook Air -- remember how Steve Jobs pulled it out of a manila envelope? Dell's "Infinity Screen" XPS 13 is the first to emphasize footprint minimization, and hopefully this approach will catch on.

[brchan]

Companies have been setting the bar for keyboard quality lower and lower that few even know what a good keyboard is. IMO a large touchpad does not make sense, since the goal is to map smaller inputs to different sections of the screen quickly.

[Summilux]

There are two ways to fit more components inside a laptop: make it thicker, or make it larger.

Yep. Since Apple decided to lead a crusade against thickness, the whole industry has pretty much banned this option from its design decision. Unfortunately for us realists.

[Ibthink]

There are two ways to fit more components inside a laptop: make it thicker, or make it larger.

True, but there is one more option: Make the components smaller. Which is what is happening with SSDs for example (M.2 SSDs instead of 2.5" SSDs). Also, using more power-efficient components like ULV CPUs enables the manufacturers to make fans and heatpipes smaller.

[Troels]

Micrex22,
I don't follow you on all points.

#1: True. I particularly would prefer that they re-introduce all status LEDs and the LCD roll cage.
But the 4:3 form factor does not leave enough room for a dual fan heatsink design, while still having DIMM slots, drive slots/bays and battery in place. Unless you want an ~18" 4:3 laptop. The dual-fan design has honestly been on my want list for many years.
#2: When your reference is the HP ProBook with what appears to be fully square keys with no contour and low-travel distance then I can fully understand your concern.
#3: When you compare them like that yes, but you are not going to find current-gen performance hardware that runs cool enough to fit in a 14.1" shell, compared to the performance class of the T60p when it was new. Just look at the power supplies supplied with the systems. 170W for the P50, i.e. nearly doubled compared to T60-era.
#4: I don't see the problem as long as it has full hardware buttons - like on the P50 and P70. They got it partly wrong on the rest of the 4/560 series. I actually always hated the T6x generation touchpad, since they removed the coloring and it relatively quickly became glossy and I've replaced the assembly three times due to button failure. The T4x series touchpad was in my opinion a better, more durable design.

[dr_st]

THIS is what the P50/P70 should have been:
http://i.imgur.com/gHWo0CW.png

Ahahahaha. Please tell me more how you are going to fit a laptop with a 17" screen into what appears to be a cut down shell of a 15" laptop.

They keep making ThinkPads that nobody (at least power users) want.

I wonder who buys all those laptops "nobody wants". Not power users, then who? Facebook-squatting teenagers buy workstation machines? Or is there some secret warehouse where all those unsold laptops sit?

[Puppy]

I wonder who buys all those laptops "nobody wants". Not power users, then who? Facebook-squatting teenagers buy workstation machines? Or is there some secret warehouse where all those unsold laptops sit?

Companies, then it is used as a PC with external keyboard, mouse and monitor connected.

[evening_hunger]

There are two ways to fit more components inside a laptop: make it thicker, or make it larger.

Yep. Since Apple decided to lead a crusade against thickness, the whole industry has pretty much banned this option from its design decision. Unfortunately for us realists.

Apple already hit the wall with this, whatamacalit... Macbook ? Anyway, the one that has smartphone motherboard in a laptop shell. It's so thin, typing on it is a joke.
There is one component you cannot minimize & optimize: your hands/palms, and the way the brain collects info from them fingertips.

[micrex22]

#1: Very few people would buy a 4:3 laptop of today. Aside from some people here on this forum. The keyboard is something that doesn't bother many people. It bothers me, but thats just me.
I think i could get used to the new chiclet design, and the mechanics are the same as the old TP keyboards - so it should not differ that much. The travel migth be a little shorter, but thats how it works with thinner keyboards.

Many people prefer proper keyboards (that's why there's a huge craze for mechanical keyboards now). The older IBM NMB ThinkPad keyboards are *adequate* (if we are to compare a real keyboard switch like a buckling spring or ALPS). The Lenovo chiclets are terrible for touchtyping both for the low travel distance and the fact the layout is odd. And the keys are not shaped very well either... so you get a *permanent* loss of efficiency even if one wants to bend and force themselves to use it.

I was using a newer ThinkPad Edge (that came in for repair) and it took me 30 seconds to find some keys since everything was moved around in odd areas.

#3: I agree, footprint could be smaller. But take into account that the P50/P70 is carrying some components requirering vastly more power than any T601 does, so they need more cooling. And if you dint mind, look at the frankenpad in my signature. They have to be a little larger to accomondate for the better components.

It's not using that much power 24/7, but only when doing intensive I/O operation. Furthermore, on battery it's unlikely you'd be using that much wattage as well. If footprint is absolutely mandatory, it could be done on 15" 16:10.

#4: Since when did more options become bad? Really, just turn it off then. A large touchpad is good for touchpad users.
Imagine if they cared about the trackpoint users and removed the touchpad. Imagine they did the other thing, and removed the trackpoint buttons/trackpoint because of the touchpad users?

There's less room for a touchpad as you go to smaller screens (lenovo is sticking on this ugly large touchpads only due to the large 17"+ displays). So it either has to be a microtouchpad or removed entirely. Take a look at the X41 for instance, that's what I'm getting at.

People who want touchpads with proper OS integration buy a MacBook, not a ThinkPad.

If the P50/70 was a you suggested, it would probably be the biggest fail to date. Sorry. But you are not the only one buying laptops in this world.

Lenovo's PC division is becomming harder to be profitable, although that could be due to the whole industry slowly marching to the grave.

But the 4:3 form factor does not leave enough room for a dual fan heatsink design, while still having DIMM slots, drive slots/bays and battery in place. Unless you want an ~18" 4:3 laptop. The dual-fan design has honestly been on my want list for many years.

I never said that a 4:3 form factor was necessary, which is why I provided the photo of how a 16:10 one could be made (as Lenovo won't revisit that unless Apple does), but would be best kept within 14" or 15" at the max.

#3: When you compare them like that yes, but you are not going to find current-gen performance hardware that runs cool enough to fit in a 14.1" shell, compared to the performance class of the T60p when it was new. Just look at the power supplies supplied with the systems. 170W for the P50, i.e. nearly doubled compared to T60-era.

It can be done (re: just make it thicker instead of wider), but Lenovo chooses deliberately to make a wide 6:9 machine with a numpad.

#4: I don't see the problem as long as it has full hardware buttons - like on the P50 and P70. They got it partly wrong on the rest of the 4/560 series. I actually always hated the T6x generation touchpad, since they removed the coloring and it relatively quickly became glossy and I've replaced the assembly three times due to button failure. The T4x series touchpad was in my opinion a better, more durable design.

The T4x and T6x use the same synaptics surface touchpad from what I can tell. Newer Lenovo touchpads (the ones that integrate the trackpoint buttons) get glossy even faster. Colour differenciation is nice, and fortunately you can get T4x trackpoint coloured buttons on a T6x. But most folks using a ThinkPad don't use its touchpad (they'll use a macbook or an external mouse).
EDIT: The T43 touchpads actually feel WAY better than the T60's (different texture). They also don't have a 'greasy' feeling like the T60 ones do.

Ahahahaha. Please tell me more how you are going to fit a laptop with a 17" screen into what appears to be a cut down shell of a 15" laptop.

You wouldn't, a 17" screen is too large in my opinion, it would have to be a 14" or 15" 16:10.

Companies, then it is used as a PC with external keyboard, mouse and monitor connected.

Many of our clients who used to traditionally buy ThinkPads no longer do, due to quality issues and mass failures. Even my coworkers who use ThinkPads had to send them in multiple times. And that hurts business-- especially since other techs I know in the area speak of the same problems, so they all buy HP now.

[Dekks]

Many of our clients who used to traditionally buy ThinkPads no longer do, due to quality issues and mass failures. Even my coworkers who use ThinkPads had to send them in multiple times. And that hurts business-- especially since other techs I know in the area speak of the same problems, so they all buy HP now.

This should be utmost in Lenovo's mind.

[coolcat37]

Just learn to deal with it

Exactly right, along with "No pain, no gain." "Just do it." "Life is short, play hard." "Sh!t happens, Deal with it." "Get a life." and "Just say no".

[RealBlackStuff]

OTOH, if the management at Lenovo could be FORCED to read every post on this Forum every day before they begin "working",
they would soon get the idea that all is not well in Lenovo-land, and hopefully DO something about it.
Since 2012 they have been doing their best to bore Thinkpads into the ground, and boy, are they succeeding!

[pianowizard]

Since 2012 they have been doing their best to bore Thinkpads into the ground, and boy, are they succeeding!

I do thank Lenovo for introducing me to other brands. Without their disappointing post-T60 Thinkpads, I wouldn't have been forced to check out Sony, Panasonic, Dell and HP in the past 6 years, and realized that they all have terrific laptops that suit me better than any recent Thinkpad.

[jdrou]

I do thank Lenovo for introducing me to other brands. Without their disappointing post-T60 Thinkpads, I wouldn't have been forced to check out Sony, Panasonic, Dell and HP in the past 6 years, and realized that they all have terrific laptops that suit me better than any recent Thinkpad.

Like thanking your boss for firing you, forcing you to look for a new job which turns out to be better than the old one.

[ajkula66]

I do thank Lenovo for introducing me to other brands. Without their disappointing post-T60 Thinkpads, I wouldn't have been forced to check out Sony, Panasonic, Dell and HP in the past 6 years, and realized that they all have terrific laptops that suit me better than any recent Thinkpad.

I wouldn't call all post T60 ThinkPads disappointing - not by a long stretch - but to each their own.

Even while Lenovo was building ThinkPads with a proper keyboard layout, I was experimenting with Panasonics, HP and Dell and found out that many of their systems were exceptional laptops in their own right.

With a 7-row keyboard and a DC-grade LCD, P70 would've been my dream machine come true in almost every respect. But...

[Troels]

I wouldn't call all post T60 ThinkPads disappointing - not by a long stretch - but to each their own.

Neither would I. In fact, I don't see that current gens Panasonic, HP or Dell have anything to offer compared to the P50 or P70, provided that the P50 or P70 live up to their promised specs on paper. I would actually have preferred Dell's older gen Precision 15" series like the M4800 or HP's design like NC6400, but it seems as if they have given up on both designs nowadays and now offer MacBook clones instead.

[bit_twiddler]

From the notebookcheck review of the P50:

The maintainability of the ThinkPad P50 is much worse compared to the bigger P70. The battery can still easily be removed and there is a large maintenance hatch. In addition to the screws, it is also secured by small plastic clips, so you have to be careful not to break them when you remove the cover. The hatch of the P70 could just be lifted at one side and then easily removed. At the bottom, you get access to the M.2-SSD, the two empty memory slots and the BIOS battery. There are two more slots (1x M.2-SSD, 1x 2.5-inch up to 7 mm), but you need special mounting trays as well as connection cables. We do not know why the manufacturer makes it so hard to upgrade the device

.

Does anybody on this forum have direct experience removing the hatch cover on the P50, and, if so, could you please tell us
what the issue is with the plastic clips? Are they hard to get to, do they break, or what?

[Troels]

Just removed my hatch cover on my P50 to verify. You'll need to undo 6 screws with a PH0 screwdriver. Then use a small flat screwdriver to "lift" it open. I started to the left of the dock connector (above the battery area) and to the right of the battery. Lift up the left part with your left hand, and gently use the screw driver as a crow bar through the dock connector hole. From then, it is easy to lift off.

The issue is that you cannot see where these plastic protrusions/clips are at. And this is a bad decision compared to the P70 which only seems to have clips along two edges.

If it breaks you can always buy a replacement part "00UR804" which currently only costs about $1200 here locally. And it is even in stock.

[bit_twiddler]

From videos on you-tube it looks like the screws alone would locate the hatch cover on the P50
if the clips were broken. Is this your impression? I guess we'll find out soon enough for sure.

[Troels]

Yes my impression is that the screws would hold the cover into place, even if clips were broken.

[Summilux]

Just learn to deal with it

Exactly right, along with "No pain, no gain." "Just do it." "Life is short, play hard." "Sh!t happens, Deal with it." "Get a life." and "Just say no".

Don't forget "Just be yourself".

[Kilkenny]

Let me tell you the truth: if people wanted the design you proposed, they would make it like that to increase profit.

#1: Very few people would buy a 4:3 laptop of today. Aside from some people here on this forum. The keyboard is something that doesn't bother many people. It bothers me, but thats just me.
I think i could get used to the new chiclet design, and the mechanics are the same as the old TP keyboards - so it should not differ that much. The travel migth be a little shorter, but thats how it works with thinner keyboards.

But either way, i have not used the new keyboard so long that i could get used to it - so i cannot say whats better tbh.

#2: See #1

#3: I agree, footprint could be smaller. But take into account that the P50/P70 is carrying some components requirering vastly more power than any T601 does, so they need more cooling. And if you dint mind, look at the frankenpad in my signature. They have to be a little larger to accomondate for the better components.
"Ugly" is subjective. I hear more people call my FP ugly than some crappy consumer notebooks, but its none of their business

#4: Since when did more options become bad? Really, just turn it off then. A large touchpad is good for touchpad users.
Imagine if they cared about the trackpoint users and removed the touchpad. Imagine they did the other thing, and removed the trackpoint buttons/trackpoint because of the touchpad users?
Just learn to deal with it

If the P50/70 was a you suggested, it would probably be the biggest fail to date. Sorry. But you are not the only one buying laptops in this world.

Why do you think very few people would buy a 4:3 laptop? The people who actually care about their laptop's aspect ratio are usually the ones who want 4:3. Nobody else cares either way. It's not like the market was screaming for 16:9; 16:9 was just forced on them and nobody outside power users protested because it just doesn't matter to the average buyer.

There's a difference between things the laptop buying population demands, things they don't care about at all, and things they actively dislike. Most people don't care about the aspect ratio, yet a lot of buyers would see 4:3 as a benefit. I also don't think anyone actually disliked the classic 7 row keyboard (at least not enough to not buy a laptop because of it), yet a lot of buyers greatly prefer it.

These are additions with no downside other than cost, and the P50 and P70 are so expensive anyway that it seems foolish to rule them out on cost alone, especially when the market for this specific laptop is likely comprised of the die hards who really do want these features.

[Puppy]

There's a difference between things the laptop buying population demands, things they don't care about at all

There is missing laptop "pro" category on the market. While you still can get pro music instrument, pro digital camera, pro video lenses, pro sports equipment etc there is no longer a pro laptop. P50/P70 is far behind especially when it comes to reliability/stability (BIOS) and component quality (displays) and keyboard layout of course. It is just overpriced consumer-business-grade laptop having recent fast CPU/GPU. You pay at least additional $1000 for that disk activity status LED Another extra $6000 for 7-row keyboard layout option is missing

How did it happen nobody need a pro laptop anymore ? Don't have an idea. Recently I watched a developer using one of that horrible HP keyboards, he was almost 10 times slower when typing and navigating in the source code (having these stupid half-size up/down cursor keys and PgUp/PgDn via Fn) than me using the proper keyboard. Maybe today's management is totally clueless that did not realize how much time they waste using improper tools.

[pianowizard]

I wouldn't call all post T60 ThinkPads disappointing - not by a long stretch - but to each their own.

You are right, I probably exaggerated a little. While posting in another thread just moments ago, I was reminded that the X300/301 had intrigued me quite a bit. I was also mildly interested in the X200s and X201s. But everything considered (e.g. price, looks, specs...), they weren't as appealing as some of the laptops that other brands had to offer. After the X301 and X201s, Lenovo had several generations of Thinkpads that I truly couldn't care less about; hence, my defection to Sony, Panasonic, Dell and HP, after 8 years of using Thinkpads almost exclusively, about 45 of them.

Neither would I. In fact, I don't see that current gens Panasonic, HP or Dell have anything to offer compared to the P50 or P70, provided that the P50 or P70 live up to their promised specs on paper. I would actually have preferred Dell's older gen Precision 15" series like the M4800 or HP's design like NC6400, but it seems as if they have given up on both designs nowadays and now offer MacBook clones instead.

I was not referring to current laptops, but to the Panasonic, Sony, HP and Dell laptops that I actually bought after getting disappointed by the T61 and other Thinkpads of that era. For example, the Dell Latitudes D820 and E4200, the Panasonic Y4/5/7/9, the EliteBook 8740w, and my favorite, Sony's Pro13 -- all these were superior to Lenovo's comparable products made around the same time. The two most cited advantages that Thinkpads have over other brands are their keyboards and the TrackPoint. Being able to adapt to most keyboards (probably because I am a pianist) and being equally comfortable with trackpoints and touchpads, I am less attached to Thinkpads than many other forum members, enabling me to migrate to other brands easily.

As far as current laptops, I haven't looked at Dell's or HP's, because I am sufficiently happy with my Sony Pro13 that I hardly think about upgrading. But because I visit this forum almost daily, I have "accidentally" learned quite a bit about the current Thinkpads, which I do find more appealing than those from the last 3 - 5 generations.

[micrex22]

Being able to adapt to most keyboards (probably because I am a pianist) and being equally comfortable with trackpoints and touchpads, I am less attached to Thinkpads than many other forum members, enabling me to migrate to other brands easily.

That should make you more particular about quality keyboards; for instance the old Pratt Read keyboard assemblies that many analog synthesizers use (prophet 5 / OB-X / minimoog / polymoog) have *lead* weighted keys (so we're not talking semi-weighted but fully weighted) along with every feature under the sun like aftertouch. Going from a Pratt-Read keyboard to a cheap synthesizer keyboard lacking aftertouch and not even semi-weighted, is like going from a Model F to a bottom of the barrel chiclet keyboard.

So while you can still 'play' on a keyboard without aftertouch or you can 'still type' on a laptop chiclet keyboard at 70 WPM instead of 140, it's an adaption with a compromise. And for another contrast: playing on a keyboard that's not weighted feels awful, just like typing on a keyboard that isn't clicky, feels awful.

[pianowizard]

That should make you more particular about quality keyboards

To some extent, i.e. I can't play anything properly on a non-weighted digital keyboard. But what I meant was that as a pianist, I have to play different pianos all the time, and so I must be able to adapt quickly. There are a few pianists who travel with their personal pianos, but the vast majority of pianists don't. Thus, adaptability is supremely important.

Just yesterday, I tried a Dell XPS 15 at Best Buy. It had a chiclet keyboard, and I hadn't touched any chiclet keyboards in at least a year. Yet, I managed to get 108 WPM on typeracer.com, while standing the whole time. With more practice and if I could sit down at a desk, I would have adapted to this keyboard easily.

[micrex22]

To some extent, i.e. I can't play anything properly on a non-weighted digital keyboard.

Bingo.

Going from the T60 NMB ThinkPad keyboard to any cheap chiclet is like going from semi-weighted to non-weighted along with the loss of aftertouch (older ThinkPad keyboards have the integrated numpad and a proper 7-row layout; whereas everyone--including Lenovo--want to do 6 row).

I say semi-weighted because the NMB thinkpad keyboards are not the best typing experience, but the best you'll get in a modern laptop.

[lophiomys]

To some extent, i.e. I can't play anything properly on a non-weighted digital keyboard.

Bingo.

Going from the T60 NMB ThinkPad keyboard to any cheap chiclet is like going from semi-weighted to non-weighted along with the loss of aftertouch (older ThinkPad keyboards have the integrated numpad and a proper 7-row layout; whereas everyone--including Lenovo--want to do 6 row).

I say semi-weighted because the NMB thinkpad keyboards are not the best typing experience, but the best you'll get in a modern laptop.

Full ACK, from a dilettante piano practitioner.
I would want something very similar to the experience the classic 7-row NMB keyboards in the T42p/T43p. (preferably without the [censored] Windows keys.)