Are new Lenovo ThinkPads the real retro ThinkPads?

[micrex22]

The whole notion of the "Retro" ThinkPad and some of Lenovo's recent controversial changes (especially to the keyboard) got me thinking. Are the features that Lenovo is calling retro actually retro, or are their "new" features the ones that are actually retro? What I mean by that is, are their "new" changes progress or mimicking primitive aspects that were done as a compromise or due to early development constraints / research.

Lenovo's "new" features:
*6 Row Keyboard
*Eliminated the UltraBay
*No dock
*Chiclet keycaps
*Fewer expansion ports
*Certain models omitting the TrackPoint

Primordial ThinkPads (i.e. 300 series and earlier):
*6 Row Keyboard (you can see an example here: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:300)
*UltraBay wasn't a thing yet for most
*Docking stations didn't come until later
*Chiclet keycaps (on protoypes as per David Hill: http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/richard- ... d-keyboard)
*Fewer expansion ports
*TrackPoint wasn't always present and in more primitive forms

IBM's advanced later features:
*7 Row Keyboard
*UltraBay support
*Many docking station options w/ the Advanced Dock
*proper 'low height' full keycaps
*As many expansion ports that makes sense for business users

---

So it would seem that Lenovo's changes on their NEW ThinkPads are closer to the true 'Retro' ThinkPads (1980's), rather than IBM's last run of ThinkPads before selling the business.

One striking similarity is the fact they used a 6 row keyboard with an awkward layout before they switched to a standard 7 row with 87 keys (later 89 on the T6x series). And now, all Lenovo ThinkPads have DEVOLVED to a 6 row layout with awkwardly placed keys, exactly like the 300 series. The fact that the earlier ThinkPads lacked features was purely due to them being primitive and still developing; yet we find the same mirrored aspect in the Lenovo ThinkPads as Lenovo keeps removing things for one reason or another.

Tell me how a 7 row is 'retro' when in reality the 6 row was the first to be used.

[Ibthink]

Well, the very first ThinkPad Notebook 700C had a 7 Row keyboard. So I guess the theory is wrong.

300 was a very unsuccessful model. It was made by Zenith Data Systems, not IBM, and all 300 models were DOA. It never worked correctly.

There is one area where you are correct though, and thats the color of the Enter key. Lenovo changed the Enter key back to black, because they wanted the cleaner design and because earlier ThinkPads (up to T23) have black Enter keys.

Actually, all ThinkPad models today of docks, be it a mechanical dock (T/X/P/L) or Onelink (Yoga/X1/E). Fewer expansion ports is only a trend because notebooks are getting thinner, and the UltraBay is just obsolete these days. Its has no real reason to exist anymore, and most people don´t want one (see Retro ThinkPad polls). The room the UltraBay takes up can be used for more useful things, like better cooling, a bigger battery etc.

[brchan]

The 300 from 1992 looks like an interesting model, since Thinkwiki states that it has an ethernet port! No other thinkpad had such a feature until May 2000 with the T2* and A2* models.

As for the ultrabay, I have to agree with Ibthink.

The 'retro' project seems non existent now, but the xx30 and xx20 models still have plenty of power for another 5+ years. Maybe even 10+, since T60 units are still fairly usable today.

[micrex22]

Well, the very first ThinkPad Notebook 700C had a 7 Row keyboard. So I guess the theory is wrong.

If you look at the prototype ThinkPad (with chiclet keys) it's also a 6-row like the 300 series (700 series was more like the PS/Note). Although prior to the ThinkPad like the LX40SX, it's a 6 row.

300 was a very unsuccessful model. It was made by Zenith Data Systems, not IBM, and all 300 models were DOA. It never worked correctly.

There is one area where you are correct though, and thats the color of the Enter key. Lenovo changed the Enter key back to black, because they wanted the cleaner design and because earlier ThinkPads (up to T23) have black Enter keys.

Actually, all ThinkPad models today of docks, be it a mechanical dock (T/X/P/L) or Onelink (Yoga/X1/E). Fewer expansion ports is only a trend because notebooks are getting thinner, and the UltraBay is just obsolete these days. Its has no real reason to exist anymore, and most people don´t want one (see Retro ThinkPad polls). The room the UltraBay takes up can be used for more useful things, like better cooling, a bigger battery etc.

The Ultrabay can actually house a battery though, so with a 9-cell at the rear and an ultrabay battery, you'll have quite a good runtime.

It is (I agree) an antiquated thing, but I really like to hotswap HDDs, CDs, etc. Perhaps if Lenovo thought on it, they could make it more useful with additional peripherals.

[Ibthink]

If you look at the prototype ThinkPad (with chiclet keys) it's also a 6-row like the 300 series (700 series was more like the PS/Note). Although prior to the ThinkPad like the LX40SX, it's a 6 row.

The Ultrabay can actually house a battery though, so with a 9-cell at the rear and an ultrabay battery, you'll have quite a good runtime.

It is (I agree) an antiquated thing, but I really like to hotswap HDDs, CDs, etc. Perhaps if Lenovo thought on it, they could make it more useful with additional peripherals.

If you look at the prototype ThinkPad, you will notice that it indeed has 6 rows, but also, that its layout is very closely modeled after a desktop keyboard (which also has 6 rows). It has the navigation block at the right, just like on a desktop.

The problem this creates of couse is that the keys have to be much smaller to fit in the extra keys (or the bezels have to be really big). This problem was solved with the 7 row layout, as they simply stacked the navigation block in the top right of the keyboard. Back then, the systems had very small screens, and also 4:3 screens, which means there was plenty of room for expanding the keyboard in the height, but not in the width. Quite different from today, as all new systems have wide-screens of course.

So in a sense, this is even closer to desktop keyboards then the standard 7 row layout. It has no resemblence of the 6 row layout we have today. Today of course, desktops are far less common then they used to for many people, so the importance of the old standard layout has diminished over the years. Likely one reason why Lenovo made the decision to switch (among others), as back in the 90s, everyone who was buying a laptop came from a desktop, so back then, this was a very important feature for IBM to keep.

Re UltraBay: Sure, of course. But only one expansion module at a time. My P50 is a very good example of what you can achieve by removing the UltraBay, as it dropped the feature compared with the W541:

- Dual-Fan Cooling

- 2x 2.5" HDD/SSD slots standard

- Bigger battery doesn´t stick out of the chassis and is store in the front of the system

- A few mm thinner

Again, the room this feature needs can be used for much better things. The only real feature you loose is the optical drive (which almost no one really uses anymore) and the ability to hot-swap HDDs (which, granted, might be a real loss to some - but most people have external USB 3.0 HDDs these days anyway, or even better, a external Thunderbolt SSD).

[brchan]

The ultrabay also created noticeable flexing in the chassis, with the exception of older units like the 770 and 600. Unfortunately, although the bay batteries were a good idea, they never lasted very long before losing a lot of capacity. They also drained to 0% until switching to the main battery pack.

I did like the ultrabay numeric keyboard available on the A and T2* series. Very nifty and doesn't offset the keyboard.

[TPFanatic]

Interesting.

Thinkpadders, I imagine, long for a "Retro" Thinkpad because Lenovo has reached a point of de-evolution where the older ones are better. By older, better, we mean from the Culmination-of-Greatness era personified by the Pentium M through Sandy Bridge models, R50p to T520. Ultrabay, Classic Desktop-Style Keyboard w/ Integrated Numpad, Premium Resolution Screens, no messing with the Trackpoint / Trackpont first, and thinness without compromise are aspects of these great Thinkpads.

What we want in a retro Thinkpad is not a de-evolution to the 90s but a return to the Thinkpad identity - we already have the de-evolution, as you point out, in the current Thinkpad lineup. And due to questionable reliability in the current lineup, they may have devolved more than the vintage machines....


I like the current L560 since it's one of the only current Thinkpads with an optical drive. CDs still have their uses, eg. medical records. The gov may use CDs, not that they matter since they won't buy Chinese. I brought a CD to an office the other day where even their desktop didn't have an optical drive, but guess what, my T500 did.

[micrex22]

If you look at the prototype ThinkPad, you will notice that it indeed has 6 rows, but also, that its layout is very closely modeled after a desktop keyboard (which also has 6 rows). It has the navigation block at the right, just like on a desktop.

The problem this creates of couse is that the keys have to be much smaller to fit in the extra keys (or the bezels have to be really big). This problem was solved with the 7 row layout, as they simply stacked the navigation block in the top right of the keyboard. Back then, the systems had very small screens, and also 4:3 screens, which means there was plenty of room for expanding the keyboard in the height, but not in the width. Quite different from today, as all new systems have wide-screens of course.

What's interesting is that the Zenith TP300 layout is pretty close to the modern day Lenovo one:
http://i.imgur.com/WwMhorx.png
The top row even begins with Esc and ends with delete. Yuck.

It's hard to say whether the L40 SX 6-row keyboard's key size was determined by the screen size since it borrows the IBM M4-1 Space Saving keyboard layout (it's in fact the exact same keyboard without a TrackPoint). If I had to guess I'd say the L40 SX came first before the M4-1 Space Saving keyboard. But the fact that IBM kept that 6-row keyboard layout instead of fixing it means that at the very least they weren't limited to a screen size with an external keyboard. Just designers who fell asleep; which is exactly what's happened at Lenovo.

So in a sense, this is even closer to desktop keyboards then the standard 7 row layout. It has no resemblence of the 6 row layout we have today. Today of course, desktops are far less common then they used to for many people, so the importance of the old standard layout has diminished over the years. Likely one reason why Lenovo made the decision to switch (among others), as back in the 90s, everyone who was buying a laptop came from a desktop, so back then, this was a very important feature for IBM to keep.

I don't quite follow by what you're referring that these layouts are closer to a desktop keyboard. The M4-1 and L40 SX have a layout that's further removed from the real IBM Space Saving Keyboards (Model M) and regular ThinkPad 7-row layouts.
Perhaps you're not familiar that the ThinkPad keyboard used elements from the original 84-key space saving keyboard (which is a desktop layout):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... yboard.png
You'll see the integrated numpad as well. With the M4-1 the key clusters are less that of the Model M and ThinkPad, so if anything it's these 6-row layouts that are less like a desktop, whereas the 7-row ThinkPad layout hearkens to he 84-key Model M:
http://www.clickykeyboard.com/2009/jul30/001.jpg

Re UltraBay: Sure, of course. But only one expansion module at a time. My P50 is a very good example of what you can achieve by removing the UltraBay, as it dropped the feature compared with the W541:
- Dual-Fan Cooling
- 2x 2.5" HDD/SSD slots standard
- Bigger battery doesn´t stick out of the chassis and is store in the front of the system
- A few mm thinner
Again, the room this feature needs can be used for much better things. The only real feature you loose is the optical drive (which almost no one really uses anymore) and the ability to hot-swap HDDs (which, granted, might be a real loss to some - but most people have external USB 3.0 HDDs these days anyway, or even better, a external Thunderbolt SSD).

The P50 is also a good example of increasing the surface area of a laptop so much that it starts to not become very portable despite how thin it is (a piece of paper can be thin, but the more surface area you have, the larger the and ungainly the paper becomes). Giant lap pancakes. I don't see the battery thing as a positive: some people actually like having the battery sticking out so it can be used as a 'grip', I prefer it since it's a good external solution.
And technically with the UltraBay two 2.5" bays are 'standard' as well (with the option of using it for anything else you want). If Lenovo added more features such as a PCMCIA ultrabay adapter, ultrabay w/ serial port, etc. Many users would find it very helpful.

[Ibthink]

What's interesting is that the Zenith TP300 layout is pretty close to the modern day Lenovo one:
http://i.imgur.com/WwMhorx.png
The top row even begins with Esc and ends with delete. Yuck.

Not really. The ThinkPad 300 has all the navigational keys at the right side, which is unlike anything Lenovo has on modern ThinkPads. This is more like a typical HP/Dell layout.

I don't quite follow by what you're referring that these layouts are closer to a desktop keyboard. The M4-1 and L40 SX have a layout that's further removed from the real IBM Space Saving Keyboards (Model M) and regular ThinkPad 7-row layouts.

Uhm...just look at the prototype you linked as evidence for your theory: http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/richard- ... d-keyboard

http://blog.lenovo.com/uploads/general/3_-_crop.jpg

The layout is clearly heavily taking inspiration from a desktop keyboard (meaning, its the same).

Sorry, but there is really not real evidence for your weird theory with the 6 row coming back because of old models. It doesn´t make sense. Almost all ThinkPad models had 7 row keyboards.

The P50 is also a good example of increasing the surface area of a laptop so much that it starts to not become very portable despite how thin it is

The P50 isn´t bigger then any other 15.6" 16:9 widescreen ThinkPad, not particularly bigger then other models. Its still portable enough.

I don't see the battery thing as a positive: some people actually like having the battery sticking out so it can be used as a 'grip', I prefer it since it's a good external solution.

The battery is not meant to be used as a handle, this is just a wrong usage that puts serious stress on the battery-mounting.

Having the battery in the front has multiple advantages. Smaller footprint, and also much better weight distribution, I can open the lid of my P50 with one hand. Also, unlike W541 with the battery in the back, the palmrest stays really cool.

And technically with the UltraBay two 2.5" bays are 'standard' as well (with the option of using it for anything else you want). If Lenovo added more features such as a PCMCIA ultrabay adapter, ultrabay w/ serial port, etc. Many users would find it very helpful.

The problem is, for additional ports, there is Expresscard, which is much more useful for that. And no, two 2.5" slots are not standard, since the standard config always is the DVD drive. Also, as I said, you can only use one module at a time. Its either a battery, or a HDD caddy, but not both at the same time. So if you argue the 2.5" is standard, that kinda defeats the argument that "there is a battery".

In my P50, I have all the listed features at the same time.

Lenovo was right to remove the UltraBay, and if they would have kept it, I would not have bought the P50.

[micrex22]

Not really. The ThinkPad 300 has all the navigational keys at the right side, which is unlike anything Lenovo has on modern ThinkPads. This is more like a typical HP/Dell layout.
Uhm...just look at the prototype you linked as evidence for your theory: http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/richard- ... d-keyboard
http://blog.lenovo.com/uploads/general/3_-_crop.jpg
The layout is clearly heavily taking inspiration from a desktop keyboard (meaning, its the same).
Sorry, but there is really not real evidence for your weird theory with the 6 row coming back because of old models. It doesn´t make sense. Almost all ThinkPad models had 7 row keyboards.

Well... IBM started out with the 6-row layout (re: M4-1). So it cannot be dismissed.

Yeah but look at the right side of the keyboard, it doesn't mimic the clusters that a desktop keyboard has. While the LEFT side has the esc key on the same row, that's about the only thing that could be said which is similar.

The 7-row layout more closely mimics the 84-key Model M layout because the clusters are preserved and it has the integrated numpad.

The 6-row primordial layouts are based off of the M4-1 which are *not* at all closer to the standard Model M layout. The right clusters are completely messed up which forces you to search around where the keys have been moved.

The P50 isn´t bigger then any other 15.6" 16:9 widescreen ThinkPad, not particularly bigger then other models. Its still portable enough.
The battery is not meant to be used as a handle, this is just a wrong usage that puts serious stress on the battery-mounting.
Having the battery in the front has multiple advantages. Smaller footprint, and also much better weight distribution, I can open the lid of my P50 with one hand. Also, unlike W541 with the battery in the back, the palmrest stays really cool.
The problem is, for additional ports, there is Expresscard, which is much more useful for that. And no, two 2.5" slots are not standard, since the standard config always is the DVD drive. Also, as I said, you can only use one module at a time. Its either a battery, or a HDD caddy, but not both at the same time. So if you argue the 2.5" is standard, that kinda defeats the argument that "there is a battery".
In my P50, I have all the listed features at the same time.
Lenovo was right to remove the UltraBay, and if they would have kept it, I would not have bought the P50.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I could never lug around a 15.6" laptop.

[Ibthink]

Sure, the right cluster is not 100 % the same as on a desktop, due to the size restraints. But its very close. Only difference is that the Insert and Delete keys are put below the End/Page Down keys. But the navigational keys (Home, End, PageUp, PageDown) are exactly in the same layout as on a desktop.

[jdrou]

- 2x 2.5" HDD/SSD slots standard
. . .
Again, the room this feature needs can be used for much better things. The only real feature you loose is the optical drive (which almost no one really uses anymore)

I'd rather have options available than shave a few mm off the thickness. Some people need an optical drive; other people need more storage or more battery.

[Ibthink]

Well, yes, some people need an ODD. Unfortunately for those people, most people don´t need one anymore, and even if they do, external DVD drives exist. I have one as well.

If you don´t believe me, look at these results: http://blog.lenovo.com/uploads/general/ ... urvey2.png (taken from: http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/retro-th ... cellaneous). Even when it comes to the Retro ThinkPad, people prefer no ODD and no UltraBay, very clearly.

other people need more storage

To provide more storage slots then on the P50, you would need two UltraBays. Something no ThinkPad had since the A31p.

[jdrou]

Yes but the retro survey results seemed to be pushing towards an ultrabook IIRC, not a workstation machine like the W or P-series. P50s with no ODD makes sense but not on the full-size version where power/capability should be prioritized over size.

The storage comparison was just to say that 2x 2.5" bays and no ODD bay is no better than 1x 2.5" plus ODD bay.

[Radioguy]

I have always preferred an Ultrabay, and not just for the ODD option.

If we are going retro here, then the Ultrabay ought to return to it's full glory of supporting a wide range of things from PCMCIA Cards (Ok, Expresscard now), TV Tuners and Numeric Keypads...not to mention newer Card Readers or Discrete Graphics options (as employed before in non-TP Lenovo laptops). Let's at least keep this space as the last vestige of user-chosen customization.

I can see that being a non-starter who view the X301 as the basis of what a singular "Retro" model option will be, but I sincerely hope that they will do something smart, and introduce three retro models fitting the needs which support the current model lines: X for Portability, T for balance, and P/W for a workstation,with the Ultrabay surviving on the latter models.

And I do hope most chose "other" when answering where the Lenovo logo should go...heaven knows what anyone would have added if there were a text box for that one.

On the bottom is what I would have said. Really...

[600X]

And I do hope most chose "other" when answering where the Lenovo logo should go...heaven knows what anyone would have added if there were a text box for that one.

I voted for the Rainbow logo that David designed.

[Radioguy]

And I do hope most chose "other" when answering where the Lenovo logo should go...heaven knows what anyone would have added if there were a text box for that one.

I voted for the Rainbow logo that David designed.

That was on a different page. I was talking about the Lenovo logo.

As for your subject, that just didn't work for me either. This was the closest to tolerable, and still I couldn't go for it:

http://youropinioncounts.lenovo.com/med ... 20logo.jpg
Hope that pic size is more tolerable.

I went classic silver, because the only colors that deserve to be on a TP (other than red) is in the IBM logo...as it should be.

[exTPfan]

Well, yes, some people need an ODD. Unfortunately for those people, most people don´t need one anymore

Why exactly do laptop manufacturers cater only to the majority? If 60% of users want 16:9 screens, everyone gets 16:9 screens. If 60% don't need an ODD, nobody has the choice of an ODD. That's not how things work for other products.

[Ibthink]

Because manufacturers tend to try to sell as many PCs as they can, thus catering to the majority rather then the minority? You could also ask why they don´t offer built in floppy drives anymore...optical media are generally regarded as outdated and obsolete these days.

In your example, its 60 - 40. If 40 % of people still used optical disks, you would see a lot more notebooks with ODDs around. Again, in the Retro poll (http://blog.lenovo.com/uploads/general/ ... urvey2.png), 77 % told Lenovo NOT to include an ODD - and this is a poll among ThinkPad loyalists, a group of people that might be more likely to still use optical disks sometimes. Its easy to imagine how many non-ThinkPad-loyalists consider ODDs an important feature these days. I guess its something like less then 10 % of PC users.

If you need an ODD, you can buy the P70 - that is a machine for a niche market where some people actually may still use an ODD occasionally. But you will have to pay for it too I could imagine the next model after the P70 dropping the ODD as well. Dell and HP already dropped the ODD from their 17" Workstations. That truly tells you something about the importance of ODDs these days.

Why exactly do laptop manufacturers cater only to the majority? If 60% of users want 16:9 screens, everyone gets 16:9 screens. If 60% don't need an ODD, nobody has the choice of an ODD. That's not how things work for other products.

[Radioguy]

Keep in mind that most think of DVD capacities when thinking of ODD options, and using those drives to read (watch movies) more than write.

That's not me. I'm thinking of BD writing, and that can mean 128GB to a single disc (XL). However low the price of externals HDDs come down, they are more fragile than BD media.

I'm not saying I'm not in a niche with the desire for an ODD (BD), but at least I have a better reason than most.

[exTPfan]

I don't need an ODD; I need a tall screen. Since there are about 300 laptop models, each with about a 0.3% share of the market, a model doesn't need much of a share of the market to be a success.

[cadillacmike68]

...
Actually, all ThinkPad models today of docks, be it a mechanical dock (T/X/P/L) or Onelink (Yoga/X1/E).
...

What is the above supposed to mean in English??

[dr_st]

What is the above in English??

Replace the "of" with "have".

[cadillacmike68]

dr_st, Thanks.

On options / configuration:

As for Ultrabay, Optical drives, etc. I'll only get a machine that has an ultrabay where I can swap in a 2nd HDD or optical drive, and preferably a battery as well. Numerics keypad - ok, but not essential,

An ultrabay is at least as good as a 2nd 2.5" HDD, because you can do more with it. Sure you can get an external USB DVD / BRD, but that's another thing you have to drag around in your case.

As far as batteries, the ones out the back that can extend are more appealing to me, because you can always get the smaller one to save space. My wife actually likes the smaller ones for this reason.

I also would like to see a dock with another drive bay in it and a PCI slot for another card.

Looks like the T500 series and the Advanced Dock is the latest set that meets this criteria.