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Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

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Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#1 Post by fourthree » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:50 pm

Have fun guys.

Cue David Hill taking it to a ride and blasting it with a shotgun.. ThinkPad dies? Bullets reflected back at Hill and Hill dies? Who knows! Wait for the 25th anniversary!

Everyone feel free to place their bets on what we'll get.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#2 Post by Pokrzept » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:34 pm

IMHO Yoga 370 with few minor mods, premium finish and price tag around 3,000 bucks. Please look back and search for informations about another Anniversary ThinkPad - Reserve Edition.
P70 / W530 / W700 and 30 more :roll:

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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#3 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:07 pm

fourthree wrote:Have fun guys.

Cue David Hill taking it to a ride and blasting it with a shotgun.. ThinkPad dies? Bullets reflected back at Hill and Hill dies? Who knows! Wait for the 25th anniversary!

Everyone feel free to place their bets on what we'll get.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#4 Post by ajkula66 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:50 pm

Pokrzept wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:34 pm
IMHO Yoga 370 with few minor mods, premium finish and price tag around 3,000 bucks.
Ouch.
Please look back and search for informations about another Anniversary ThinkPad - Reserve Edition.
At least that one was 4:3...
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#5 Post by Pokrzept » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:44 am

Well ye, it was 4:3, but $ 5,000 bucks for an medium speced x61s stuffed into leather case with an rubberized palmrest and display frame does not seem to be reasonable price anyway. I do own 3 of those and I can tell you that whenever x61s sits in this leather cover you may use it as an electric heater instead of computer.
P70 / W530 / W700 and 30 more :roll:

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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#6 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:54 pm

Pokrzept wrote:Well ye, it was 4:3, but $ 5,000 bucks for an medium speced x61s stuffed into leather case with an rubberized palmrest and display frame does not seem to be reasonable price anyway. I do own 3 of those and I can tell you that whenever x61s sits in this leather cover you may use it as an electric heater instead of computer.
So basically an updated smaller 600 laptop with a leather cover. Sounds like disaster for people with OCD.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#7 Post by MikalE » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:44 pm

I'm looking forward to see what they have come up with.

The article said it would not be $5000.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#8 Post by TPFanatic » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:47 pm

The X61 Reserve's pricetag was probably for the 24 hour support hotline.

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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#9 Post by ZaZ » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:18 am

When I buy a notebook these days, I'm usually around $500-600, cause that's what I need to spend to get something good. I don't use my notebook a ton, which is why I have a Dell, so if this ventures into the four figures territory, I think I'll pass.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#10 Post by dr_st » Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:53 am

ZaZ wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:18 am
When I buy a notebook these days, I'm usually around $500-600, cause that's what I need to spend to get something good. I don't use my notebook a ton, which is why I have a Dell, so if this ventures into the four figures territory, I think I'll pass.
I sure hope it ventures into the 4-figure territory (in US dollars that is). On such a specialty project, development/production premiums are bound to be high, so if you cost-cut it so much to keep it under some arbitrary figure, it will just suck.

I don't think you are the target auditory of this product at all, ZaZ. You seem unphased by the new keyboard. ;) And this product is not supposed to be a mainstream laptop, or even an average business laptop. It's supposed to be a premium model for fans of a particular idea. And those fans better be ready to spend premium money. Not some imaginary $5000, no, but let's say, like a good solid Macbook Pro. That's a reasonable price for what this product aims to be (at least in my imagination).
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#11 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:07 am

I have a feeling David Hill is going to give us a 4:3 LCD.

https://www.adafruit.com/product/618

That should be enough resolution for photoshop.

and a mechanical keyboard layout too.

Image

Yup, that should be a great improvement over the xx40 series heh.

Well, I'm crossing my fingers and hoping somebody gets a brain in their head.
If FRUIT can learn to put removable RAM, CPU, and SSD after 8 years, can Lenovo learn to put a 4:3 display and a good keyboard after 8 years?????
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#12 Post by MikalE » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:11 am

I'm hoping around the $1800 to $2300 price point. I don#t want it to suck either and I want primo components not a bunch of junk they use on the E series or worse.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#13 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:47 am

MikalE wrote:I'm hoping around the $1800 to $2300 price point. I don#t want it to suck either and I want primo components not a bunch of junk they use on the E series or worse.
Basically we want a Lenovo version of the T70 or X62.
Thinkpad4by3's Law of the Universe.

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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#14 Post by ZaZ » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:07 am

dr_st wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:53 am
I don't think you are the target auditory of this product at all
Very true my friend.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#15 Post by pianowizard » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:15 am

dr_st wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:53 am
It's supposed to be a premium model for fans of a particular idea. And those fans better be ready to spend premium money.
Here's a warning for everyone considering this Retro Thinkpad: Given its high price tag and small target market, it is going to depreciate super fast, much faster than the average Thinkpad or most other laptops. Buy it only if you intend to keep it for a long time, >5 years. For this reason alone, I won't be buying it, at least not new. A premium commodity can retain its value only if many consumers desire it. The vast majority of consumers are going to find the Retro Thinkpad ugly and old school.

Experienced sellers on this forum must have noticed that laptops depreciate much faster now than they did a decade ago. The Retro Thinkpad will lose value even faster.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#16 Post by MikalE » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:22 am

I don't buy computers as investment pieces so I have no worries.

I still have 10+ year old desktops running as well as the day I bought them with no intention of selling.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#17 Post by Puppy » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:23 am

pianowizard wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:15 am
The vast majority of consumers are going to find the Retro Thinkpad ugly and old school.
The vast majority of consumers have no own opinion. If Lenovo pushed hard ads and other (a)social fluff about it (which won't happen, of course), they'd find it cool.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#18 Post by dr_st » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:57 am

pianowizard wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:15 am
Here's a warning for everyone considering this Retro Thinkpad: Given its high price tag and small target market, it is going to depreciate super fast, much faster than the average Thinkpad or most other laptops. Buy it only if you intend to keep it for a long time, >5 years. For this reason alone, I won't be buying it, at least not new. A premium commodity can retain its value only if many consumers desire it. The vast majority of consumers are going to find the Retro Thinkpad ugly and old school.

Experienced sellers on this forum must have noticed that laptops depreciate much faster now than they did a decade ago. The Retro Thinkpad will lose value even faster.
We all appreciate the warning, but a few follow-up questions:

How do you know that it's going to have a high price tag? High compared to what? A low-end Thinkpad or a premium laptop like a Macbook?

How do you know the vast majority of consumers will find it ugly and old school? Have you seen it? Have you heard anything substantial about its features or did you manage to deduce more than everyone else from David Hill's blog post?

How can you predict the supply and demand without knowing anything about this model and any possible future models? If they only make a single model, with no next-generation follow-ups, then it will retain its value much more than the average laptop, for its uniqueness. If they only run a small production line, then it will also retain high value, due to low availability (think W700/W701?)

Not to mention that for many users the depreciation of value of their laptop is not of any concern.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#19 Post by Summilux » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:40 pm

pianowizard wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:15 am
Here's a warning for everyone considering this Retro Thinkpad: Given its high price tag and small target market, it is going to depreciate super fast, much faster than the average Thinkpad or most other laptops. Buy it only if you intend to keep it for a long time, >5 years. For this reason alone, I won't be buying it, at least not new.
Do you often sell your TPs, Piano ? And to non-TP hoarders ?

I'm asking because I don't think much people here take the resale value into consideration. On the contrary, they tend to accumulate instead of parting with their computers. Proper computers, that is.

If the Classic TP is going to be decent (by our standards of course, not Lenovo's :roll: ) then buyers will probably keep it for a couple of years. Especially if the laptop was overpriced to boot.

As to mainstream consumers, they've long found TPs ugly. Back in 2006 someone made fun of my brand new T60 because he thought it was an antiquated model :lol: Joke was on him zo, he was the one typing on his non-TP piece of junk 8)
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#20 Post by pianowizard » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:18 pm

dr_st wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:57 am
How do you know that it's going to have a high price tag? High compared to what? A low-end Thinkpad or a premium laptop like a Macbook?
High compared to the average Thinkpad.
dr_st wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:57 am
How do you know the vast majority of consumers will find it ugly and old school?
Because it is called "Retro".
dr_st wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:57 am
How can you predict the supply and demand without knowing anything about this model and any possible future models? If they only make a single model, with no next-generation follow-ups, then it will retain its value much more than the average laptop, for its uniqueness. If they only run a small production line, then it will also retain high value, due to low availability (think W700/W701?)
Like you and many others have said over and over again, this Thinkpad is designed for a very specific audience, which probably total only a few thousand worldwide. I can see how the rarity of certain laptop models could make them desirable, but not a laptop that's intentionally designed to look old and appeal to a few thousand fans. As much as I appreciate the functionality of a T43, I wouldn't buy a T43 look-alike in 2017.

You might argue that this Thinkpad could turn out to have a very modern, sexy look that appeals to millions of consumer, but if that's the case it's not really a "retro" Thinkpad. My prediction regarding popularity and depreciation is based on the assumption that this will truly be a "retro" model.
Summilux wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:40 pm
Do you often sell your TPs, Piano ? And to non-TP hoarders ?
I've sold about 40 Thinkpads, mostly on this forum. The rate of depreciation increased over the past decade for all brands.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#21 Post by Summilux » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:47 pm

pianowizard wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:18 pm
As much as I appreciate the functionality of a T43, I wouldn't buy a T43 look-alike in 2017.
That's a surprising statement coming from a dedicated Thinkpadder. Could you expand on this ?
pianowizard wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:18 pm
I've sold about 40 Thinkpads, mostly on this forum. The rate of depreciation increased over the past decade for all brands.
Did you resell those models as a collector-at-large or rather as a pragmatic user who just likes to regularly switch his machines ?

Because it seems to me that, paradoxically, someone who tends to collect stuff is aware about computers' merchant values but isn't so bothered by those ; for this person won't crucially need to sell his laptops at the best possible price so as to scrap enough money to buy a newer one. It's a hobby instead of a necessity.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#22 Post by dr_st » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:23 pm

pianowizard wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:18 pm
I can see how the rarity of certain laptop models could make them desirable, but not a laptop that's intentionally designed to look old and appeal to a few thousand fans. As much as I appreciate the functionality of a T43, I wouldn't buy a T43 look-alike in 2017.

You might argue that this Thinkpad could turn out to have a very modern, sexy look that appeals to millions of consumer, but if that's the case it's not really a "retro" Thinkpad. My prediction regarding popularity and depreciation is based on the assumption that this will truly be a "retro" model.
It is most likely a wrong assumption. I don't see why anybody would design it to look old. It is supposed to have features appreciated by the "hardcore fans", but with the exception of a few "really hardcore" ones, dated looks is not one of them.

In any case, if it's a one-of-a-time model and it's not total crap, it will eventually become rare and desirable, as the number of retro fans generally remains constant (or increases, as with many hobbies), and the number of working machines decreases.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#23 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:41 am

This is going to sound really, really weird coming from silly old me but...

I've never, ever, for one split second considered the market appreciation/depreciation of this particular upcoming ThinkPad.

If Lenovo presents us with a laptop that I deem worth owning in the first place, I'll buy it with the sole intent of using it until it becomes completely obsolete and/or beyond repair. Should the machine sport one or more deal-breakers, I'll stay away from it altogether regardless of price and future market behaviour.

Laptops are - generally speaking - poor investments. Yes, some of the early models command high prices nowadays, but they are exception rather than the rule. And the only way one can really get their money's worth out of an item - applicable for most objects excluding rarities defined solely as collectibles - is by using the heck out of them.

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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#24 Post by MikalE » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:36 am

The only real external retro features that are must with me are the keyboard used up the the T/W520 series and the magnesium roll cage. A metal lid would be a nice touch too, but I'm not counting on that.

Modern stuff inside though is what I'm looking for like a high speed SSD of 500 GB or better, high capacity battery(ies), IPS 4K screen in a 4:3 aspect ratio (I doubt that happens either), 16 GB and up memory capacity, plenty of external ports, good video GPU, Blue-Ray player/burner, etc.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#25 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:56 am

MikalE wrote:The only real external retro features that are must with me are the keyboard used up the the T/W520 series and the magnesium roll cage. A metal lid would be a nice touch too, but I'm not counting on that.

Modern stuff inside though is what I'm looking for like a high speed SSD of 500 GB or better, high capacity battery(ies), IPS 4K screen in a 4:3 aspect ratio (I doubt that happens either), 16 GB and up memory capacity, plenty of external ports, good video GPU, Blue-Ray player/burner, etc.
Well, 3:2 would be nice. Im counting on an IPS X301. I loved that machine except for the Lcd.

Hey, they make a 12.6" eDP 2880x1920 IPS lcd. That would be perfect.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#26 Post by pianowizard » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:00 am

Summilux wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:47 pm
That's a surprising statement coming from a dedicated Thinkpadder. Could you expand on this?
The T43 looked sexy in its days but now looks ancient. It's also too heavy to carry around. Nowadays there are 17.3" laptops that weigh less than the 14.1" T43.
Summilux wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:47 pm
Did you resell those models as a collector-at-large or rather as a pragmatic user who just likes to regularly switch his machines ?
Two reasons: 1) I lose interest in most laptops quickly and itch for new toys; 2) I spent years searching for the ideal laptop and kept failing. The Sony Vaio Pro 13 is probably my favorite laptop of all time and yet I am selling it because I have gotten tired of it after nearly 3.5 years, and because I no longer accept FHD, not even on a 13.3" screen. Hence, my recent upgrade to the Surface 3. Performance-wise it's a downgrade, but it weighs less, uses any micro USB charger, has 1920x1280 resolution and LTE connectivity.
dr_st wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:23 pm
I don't see why anybody would design it to look old.
IMO even if the only old-looking exterior component is the keyboard, the majority of consumers would still be turned off by it. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the classic 7-row keyboard is the one feature that will most likely be incorporated into the Retro Thinkpad.
ajkula66 wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:41 am
If Lenovo presents us with a laptop that I deem worth owning in the first place, I'll buy it with the sole intent of using it until it becomes completely obsolete and/or beyond repair. Should the machine sport one or more deal-breakers, I'll stay away from it altogether regardless of price and future market behaviour.
But have you considered a third possibility: The Retro Thinkpad seems perfect on paper, so you buy one, but after actually using it for a couple months, there are things about it that bother you. Would you force yourself to keep using it for years? For me, I try to get rid of a laptop ASAP when I discover something I dislike about it, which is why the rate of depreciation concerns me.
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#27 Post by TPFanatic » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:32 am

Despite having the classic keyboard I noticed in the teaser picture that the Integrated Numpad is not there, as in there are not numbers on the UIOJKL keys. This was an IBM innovation that carried through until the Chiclet keyboard (even W700 had the Integrated Numpad and a Numpad). Despite it not being a popular feature, I did find use for it and appreciate having the features of a numpad without an extra numpad offsetting the normal keyboard. So it's a shame that's not coming back.

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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#28 Post by dr_st » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:32 am

pianowizard wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:00 am
IMO even if the only old-looking exterior component is the keyboard, the majority of consumers would still be turned off by it.
Looks like we are going to disagree on this point. Time will tell.
pianowizard wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:00 am
But have you considered a third possibility: The Retro Thinkpad seems perfect on paper, so you buy one, but after actually using it for a couple months, there are things about it that bother you. Would you force yourself to keep using it for years? For me, I try to get rid of a laptop ASAP when I discover something I dislike about it, which is why the rate of depreciation concerns me.
Typically at some point as they mature, people understand that nothing is perfect, and there are always things not to like about something. So if one strives for perfection, disappointment is sure to follow. Once you understand that you can accept minor flaws, if overall the package is good enough, life becomes easier. Not a single one of the laptops in my private collection is perfect, but they are all good enough for me to like them and continue using them. Those that are not good enough, I don't use, and usually replace.

Of course, the itch to try new toys is a different thing. If this is one of your hobbies, then it's natural to worry about depreciation rate, since you want to get back as much as the cost as you can, to help fund future toys. Unless of course the amount of free money you have is way way more than the cost of the hobby. :)
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T490 (20N3), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad

ajkula66
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#29 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:03 pm

pianowizard wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:00 am

The T43 looked sexy in its days but now looks ancient. It's also too heavy to carry around. Nowadays there are 17.3" laptops that weigh less than the 14.1" T43.
To me personally, T43 still looks extremely attractive. I rarely carry laptops around anymore nowadays, so size/weight is really a non-issue for me. Needless to say, if Retro were to be a re-vamped T43 - which most certainly won't be the case - I'd likely buy several of them.
But have you considered a third possibility: The Retro Thinkpad seems perfect on paper, so you buy one, but after actually using it for a couple months, there are things about it that bother you. Would you force yourself to keep using it for years? For me, I try to get rid of a laptop ASAP when I discover something I dislike about it, which is why the rate of depreciation concerns me.
To put it this way: I have a pretty well-set standard on what's acceptable and what's not for most things in life. If Retro were purchased by silly old me and turned out to be a piece of junk with no QC applied to it, it would go back to Lenovo in a matter of days, not months. I'm too old to waste time on inconsistencies that corporations deem acceptable nowadays.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

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Summilux
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Re: Retro ThinkPad is.. alive!(?)

#30 Post by Summilux » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:01 pm

pianowizard wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:00 am
The T43 looked sexy in its days but now looks ancient. It's also too heavy to carry around. Nowadays there are 17.3" laptops that weigh less than the 14.1" T43.
I can't think of any way to make a TP "not look ancient". Full black colour, 7-row-non-chicklet keyboard, trackpoint... yeah, you might make the package thinner and also narrow the bezel, but it'll still look like a TP through and through.

Maybe churn out a Macbook clone with a classic keyboard (incl. trackpoint) ? Why not. I could see myself buying it - out of despair. But that wouldn't be a TP anymore.
pianowizard wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:00 am
Two reasons: 1) I lose interest in most laptops quickly and itch for new toys; 2) I spent years searching for the ideal laptop and kept failing.
Now your habit to resell your laptops makes sense. Though you're certainly an oddity in this regard.
Deathwisher
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X220 4287-CTO

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