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Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

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shahidt
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Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#1 Post by shahidt » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:29 am

I had an IBM Thinkpad 600E that I used for 10+ years, and somehow that felt better than the next Thinkpad I bought - a T60 which turns 11 years old next month. However, I had waited for the Thinkpad 25 (retro) with a hope in at least a 3:2 aspect ratio screen. Considering that does not seem to happen any time soon, I am strongly thinking about not buying another Thinkpad and instead giving Microsoft Surface Pro for Business (2017) a go.

Anyone else thinking on the same lines? Is there any non T-series model alternative from Lenovo. Which other vendor would you consider, if not Lenovo.

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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#2 Post by Cigarguy » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:51 am

I've ditched new Thinkpads with the change from the classic keyboard to the chicklet keyboard commencing with the T4/530 series and onwards. I still buy and use T4/520 and older Thinkpads and frequently use a T60 as my everyday beater. I much prefer some Elitebooks or Lattitude for newer machines. Not as brand loyal as I used to be to Thinkpads. Laptops are just tools for me, I'll buy something that suit my needs then use, abuse and move on.

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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#3 Post by dr_st » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:14 am

It all depends on why you valued Thinkpads to begin with. The reasons will be different for different people. Off the top of my head I can think of: reliability, durability, easy maintenance, upgradability and explandability, design, good service, keyboard, trackpoint. There are probably others.

A particular screen ratio has never been anything unique to Thinkpads. If you are upset that the Thinkpad 25 does not have at least a 3:2 screen, and this makes it unacceptable to you, then you are not a fan of Thinkpads, you are a fan of laptops with tall screens, and your previous ones just happened to be Thinkpads. (or maybe it's just that the Thinkpads are the only ancient machines you've had that survived to this day, because of their other characteristics)

The only thing that was a unique property of Thinkpads, and has been lost in recent years, is the keyboard design and layout. The Thinkpad 25 restored it, but at this point it seems more likely that it's going to be a one-off model, with limited distribution and no continuation. So the future still, at this point, seems bleak for people who valued the treasured Thinkpad keyboard. Bleak, because there are no alternatives. I have experience with Elitebooks and Latitudes. Their keyboard/trackpoint are still a million times worse, even compared to a recent island-style Thinkpad keyboard. They are also not any better in any other aspect, on average.
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), X1 Carbon (20HQ), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG, X61 7673-V2V
T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#4 Post by shahidt » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:59 am

Yes to all the reasons that you listed. Definitely like the Trackpoint on a Thinkpad better than the one on a Dell Laptop that I had to use at work. I only used the touchpad on the Dell as a result. And of course I really like the Keyboard and it is definitely much easier to type on than any other laptop I have tried. Durability and ease of maintenance has what kept my machine surviving over the years, and customer support and knowledge was also good "when I was still in the US".

At the end of the day though, I need to primarily work on Excel and some other tools that are much easier on a taller screen to pay my bills. Given that I'd not buy a Thinkpad 25 and, as you pointed out, the seven row keyboard may not last forever, I no longer want to wait for a taller screen laptop. While all of those points do matter, the aspect ratio still remains my primary requirement, not a rubberized lid, nor too many status lights, nor a customer service that I can't benefit from. If I have to compromise on lack of maintenance ease, I may as well, especially considering that labour and computer servicing is a lot more cheaper where I come from.

Who knows, I may also get an equal or better experience with another vendor, considering the Thinkpad is no longer owned by an American company, rather a generic mass scale product pushing Chinese firm.

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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#5 Post by Puppy » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:10 am

My next "ThinkPad" will be small desktop PC. Just waiting for AMD Ryzen with integrated GPU. Currently I use my X220 in dock most of the time anyway.

As for possible laptop, I am waiting for Intel 8th Gen refresh of Huawei MateBook X. Or get the 7th Gen if there will be an interesting discount (currently 999 Euro on Amazon, hmm ....) :-) No current ThinkPad is for me. Especially over here where the only T470s WQHD configuration available has overpriced 1 TB SSD so the total price is insane (over 3000 Euro).
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#6 Post by pianowizard » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:57 am

shahidt wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:59 am
I no longer want to wait for a taller screen laptop.
Puppy wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:10 am
As for possible laptop, I am waiting for Intel 8th Gen refresh of Huawei MateBook X.
I too prefer 3:2, which is why both my current mobile computers are 1920x1280, and I use Windows' default 100% scaling so that I can take full advantage of the screens' real estate. BTW, my primary smartphone is Samsung's Galaxy Tab S2 SM-T715 with 8.0" 2048x1536 (4:3).
dr_st wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:14 am
It all depends on why you valued Thinkpads to begin with. The reasons will be different for different people. Off the top of my head I can think of: reliability, durability, easy maintenance, upgradability and explandability, design, good service, keyboard, trackpoint. There are probably others.
In 2010 I stopped owning Thinkpads, after using >40 of them between 2002 and 2010, and I haven't missed them for even one nanosecond. Let me respond to your statement point-by-point:

1) I have found that regardless of brand or price, nearly all the laptops (or 2-in-1's or tablets) I've owned were reliable and durable, probably because I always babied them, and so every system was easy to maintain.

2) Laptops are now considered disposables and upgradability hardly matters any more. Need more RAM or a larger SSD? Just sell that non-upgradable 4GB/128GB laptop which is now worth no more than $100 anyway, and buy a new one with more RAM and storage.

3) If "expandability" means docking, that's something I've never needed. And on average Thinkpads don't seem to have more USB ports or video outputs than other brands.

4) Thinkpads used to have better designs than most other brands, but that changed shortly after the T60/X60 generation and was the main reason I began to explore non-Thinkpads in 2010.

5) I have found IBM's and Lenovo's service to be worse than Dell's, though this is based on a very limited experience because like I said above, nearly all my computers work well, so I rarely need to contact customer service.

6) I have never found Thinkpad keyboards to be any easier to type on than other brands (more on this below).

7) I started out preferring trackpoints but ever since I learned to use touchpads properly, I have been perfectly happy with touchpad-only laptops and 2-in-1's.
dr_st wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:14 am
The only thing that was a unique property of Thinkpads, and has been lost in recent years, is the keyboard design and layout. I have experience with Elitebooks and Latitudes. Their keyboard/trackpoint are still a million times worse, even compared to a recent island-style Thinkpad keyboard.
Thinkpads' keyboard layout is not intrinsically superior. If you are used to it, it may be hard to adapt to other layouts, but someone familiar with Dell's or Acer's or Panasonic's keyboard layouts might also have difficulty adapting to the Thinkpad layout. Between around 2012 and 2015, I had an X31 Thinkpad in my lab that I used infrequently. I found its keyboard layout very awkward, because by then I had already been fully weaned off Thinkpads.

If you spend the next three years using Latitudes exclusively, and then return to Thinkpads, I bet you would say Thinkpads' keyboard and trackpoint are "a million times worse".
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#7 Post by dr_st » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:25 am

pianowizard wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:57 am
Thinkpads' keyboard layout is not intrinsically superior. If you are used to it, it may be hard to adapt to other layouts, but someone familiar with Dell's or Acer's or Panasonic's keyboard layouts might also have difficulty adapting to the Thinkpad layout. Between around 2012 and 2015, I had an X31 Thinkpad in my lab that I used infrequently. I found its keyboard layout very awkward, because by then I had already been fully weaned off Thinkpads.

If you spend the next three years using Latitudes exclusively, and then return to Thinkpads, I bet you would say Thinkpads' keyboard and trackpoint are "a million times worse".
What makes the original Thinkpad keyboard layout intrinsically superior is two things:
  1. It's closer to a standard desktop keyboard layout (which you may argue is not superior in itself, but it is what it is, and what people using a mixture of laptops and desktops have been used to for ~30 years.
  2. It has more keys than most other laptop layouts (including the recent Thinkpad keyboards), on which certain keys can only be achieved by Fn+ combinations.
The X31 layout is awkward indeed, simply because the keys are smaller, more cramped and a little offset. I feel this myself.

What makes the keyboard on Elitebooks horrible is not so much the layout, as the feel of the keys - shallow and flat. Latitudes are not as bad in this regard, but still not as good as Thinkpads. Although they each have awful things about the layout as well; let's see - a Latitude requires you to press Fn+arrows to get Home/End and has no gaps between the F keys (which new Thinkpad 'chiclets' have, even if it's terribly small). The Elitebook has half-size up/down arrow keys. Both have trackpoints which don't match the quality of a Thinkpad trackpoint in actual use, and the lack of middle button on 14" and smaller Elitebooks is also a dealbreaker (which I mentioned in the other thread). If you are a touchpad user, these latest things won't bother you, but the point was about keyboard and trackpoint.

The rest of your points I will not reply to, because I am not interested in having a discussion (in this thread) about my personal preferences/experiences versus yours or anyone else's. I merely brought up a list of points that have, historically, been associated with the Thinkpad brand. Everybody who got attached to the brand at some point did so because of some combination of these points.
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), X1 Carbon (20HQ), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG, X61 7673-V2V
T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#8 Post by Puppy » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:37 am

dr_st wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:25 am
The X31 layout is awkward indeed, simply because the keys are smaller, more cramped and a little offset. I feel this myself.
For me, having smaller hands, the X31 is the best laptop keyboard ever. Layout, mechanics, colors ... everything perfect. A 12" 3:2 laptop having such keyboard would be a winner but I know noone is going to make it.

As for the current 6-row Lenovo layout, I find it more terrible than Huawei MateBook X or some Acer one because Home/End keys and PgUp/PgDn are on the opposite side of the keyboard. The Huawei have them clustered, it is Fn-ed on cursor keys and Acer use Home/PgDn and End/PgUp Fn combinations.

If Lenovo enabled keyboard scan codes in BIOS for Fn + all cursor keys that you could map these keys combination by SharpKeys to Home/End/PgUp/PgDn, I'd take the 6-row one ThinkPad. I think it is less than 8 hours of work for a single BIOS code developer but Lenovo is hopeless when it comes to ergonomics and usability these days.
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#9 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:46 am

Even though I have loads of Thinkpads, I am usually on my desktop, using an external keyboard (UK-layout).
Years ago I had a Northgate Omnikey 102, exactly like this one.
To this day I regret selling it.

If I had a few bob to spare, I'd buy this one: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/ ... board.html

As for Thinkpads, as long as they have a decent trackpoint I'm happy with them. No need for a touchpad.
Even though I was a mainframe programmer for many years, I still only type with 2 fingers, so the TP keyboard layout is less relevant.
I have tried HP and Dell trackpoints, both of them are absolute crap compared to the Thinkpad ones.
If I HAD to use one of those machines, I'd use an external mouse and to hell with their nubs!

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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#10 Post by pianowizard » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:59 am

dr_st wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:25 am
What makes the original Thinkpad keyboard layout intrinsically superior is two things:
  1. It's closer to a standard desktop keyboard layout (which you may argue is not superior in itself, but it is what it is, and what people using a mixture of laptops and desktops have been used to for ~30 years.
  2. It has more keys than most other laptop layouts (including the recent Thinkpad keyboards), on which certain keys can only be achieved by Fn+ combinations.
You will be surprised when I tell you that these days, my preferred keyboard layout is this:

https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Wireles ... 818&sr=8-1

It relies heavily on Fn combinations, but I've had this Logitech K400 keyboard for 3.5 years and have gotten used to the combinations.
dr_st wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:25 am
The X31 layout is awkward indeed, simply because the keys are smaller, more cramped and a little offset. I feel this myself.
But I previously had no problem with the X20/21/22/40/41t/60s/61t, or with the even smaller 240 series. The X31 felt terrible because I hadn't used Thinkpads in so long.
dr_st wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:25 am
What makes the keyboard on Elitebooks horrible is not so much the layout, as the feel of the keys - shallow and flat.
I hate Elitebook keyboards and that's why I mentioned Dell, Panasonic and Acer but not HP. IMO, the worst part is the rubberized trackpoint and touchpad buttons, which not only feel weird but also get worn out quickly. Sure, if I used Elitebooks daily, I might get accustomed to the buttons eventually, but if I used them daily, they would wear out really fast.
dr_st wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:25 am
The rest of your points I will not reply to, because I am not interested in having a discussion (in this thread) about my personal preferences/experiences versus yours or anyone else's. I merely brought up a list of points that have, historically, been associated with the Thinkpad brand. Everybody who got attached to the brand at some point did so because of some combination of these points.
I was merely explaining why I preferred Thinkpads for almost a decade, due to one of the ~10 points that you listed (better design). Also, the OP seemed to be asking about people's personal preferences, not objective truths.
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#11 Post by MikalE » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:00 pm

Back in the '90's I used to sell IBM Thinkpads for RadioShack for thousands of dollars. I knew I would never be able to afford one of those on what I was paid, even as a store manager. It was something I always longed to own. I wasn't a gamer, though with the sophistication of games back then, any Thinkpad would run a DOS game back then.

Enter the internet and e-Bay in the early 2000's and the used market for Thinkpads exploded. I could finally afford a Thinkpad, even though used, it was still what I dreamed of one day owning.

Ditching Thinkpads? Not on your life.

I'm sitting in front of a T520 that, as equipped, was probably in the neighborhood of $3500-$3800 US. I bought it for less than a 10th of that and still continue to upgrade it. It is still better than any low to upper mid-grade computer of any brand available new today.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#12 Post by edik » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:19 pm

The Glory years have long gone (1992 - 2006)... now Lenovo are trading on the legend.. but they can't pull the wool over everyone's eyes.

I for one have to reluctantly admit that a budget line 2003 R40 is better built than any of today's offerings.

Yes.. T61, T500 were OK... they needed time to learn to implement substandard manufacturing.. ;)
Last edited by edik on Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

2018: T550/16/IPS 3K Touch/72Wh
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Gone but not forgotten 1998-2006: 2006 T43p 2668-H2G (2GB/60), T22 2648-8EG (128/20) 2005 X40, X31 2004 T30 SXGA+, 600X, 2003 770 P233+DVD Card, 760XD 1998 760XL+104MB

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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#13 Post by Summilux » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:20 pm

That's what I'm thinking too OP.

Random Microsoft 3:2 tablet (problem is, these come with a glossy screen) + Thinkpad USB keyboard.
Or ideally : crowdfunded Thinkpad alternative. If/when it comes to life.

In any case, I don't want to deal with Thinkpad-trashing Lenovo ever again. The only exception being if they miraculously release a real Thinkpad laptop, and not that joke of a T470-25.
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#14 Post by dr_st » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:48 am

pianowizard wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:59 am
I was merely explaining why I preferred Thinkpads for almost a decade, due to one of the ~10 points that you listed (better design). Also, the OP seemed to be asking about people's personal preferences, not objective truths.
Yep, it's a fair reason. Thinkpads still enjoy a pretty unique design, although it's different from what you liked, and I can understand why some people which liked the old style are not happy with the current one.
edik wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:19 pm
I for one have to reluctantly admit that a budget line 2003 R40 is better built than any of today's offerings.
Even if you keep in mind that a budget R40 likely cost more in 2003 than a top-of-the-line workstation today, your claim is simply not true. To reiterate something I used to say a long time ago - "just because something is made out of think unbending plastic, does not yet mean it's well-built". As someone who closely followed Thinkpads since 2005 (not quite 2003, but still), I noticed that something got somewhat better, others somewhat worse, but on average I cannot say that the build quality and durability suffered.
edik wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:19 pm
Yes.. T61, T500 were OK...
If OK in your book means the ugliest Thinkpads that have ever seen the light of day, then - yes. :)
Summilux wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:20 pm
In any case, I don't want to deal with Thinkpad-trashing Lenovo ever again. The only exception being if they miraculously release a real Thinkpad laptop, and not that joke of a T470-25.
Get a life. The Thinkpad 25 is a fine machine in the technical sense. The problem is its limited availability and (at this point) no plans of continuation.
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#15 Post by Summilux » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:45 am

dr_st wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:48 am
Get a life. The Thinkpad 25 is a fine machine in the technical sense. The problem is its limited availability and (at this point) no plans of continuation.
Life has precisely taught me that the T470-25 was a horrible machine in the legacy sense. But this has been discussed to death already on the T470-25 subforum so I won't expand on it.
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#16 Post by dr_st » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:13 am

"In the legacy sense"? What does it even mean? If all the discussions on this forum (including this very thread) taught me anything, it is that everyone defines this "legacy" differently from others...
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#17 Post by olex126 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:06 am

re: RBS Omnikey

I went one better with the OmniKey Ultra, with the Function keys along both the sides AND top.

https://imgur.com/a/rMZlo

Purchased in the late 80's and still using it today, even with the missing F10 keycap. I've rebuilt/recalibrated it a couple of times and it has turned a bit yellow over the intervening decades , but the keypress action is still firm and crisp. Slap anywhere in the vicinity of that huge oversize "Enter" key and be sure you've accomplished your mission!

Still have the original keycap puller and manual that came with it. The box was huge, and eventually got tossed. This is a BIG keyboard!

At the time, the purchase caused a bit of a rift with the better half, considering that the cost was almost equal to our car payment at the time...... The car is LONG gone, but the Northgate still chugs on! :D

Sorry to hijack the thread!

Regards.

Dave
Previous Thinkpads: 701C A22m A30/A31p T23p x2 T30 T41 X31 various 750's 760's & 390's.

Current Daily Drivers: Various X60T & X61T's, various T42p-T43p's, x200 x201 x220 x230 W520 T601F LED (T9500/8Gb/250SSD/W7 Ultimate)


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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#18 Post by thinkpadcollection » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:03 pm

Started to like 15W processors more for long runtime, more lighter, even trade off is bit less performance but I draw the line against dumb Lenovo did with 1 slot memory thing not from capacity issue, it is performance issue especially with integrated video on the processor really likes dual channel best in 128bits mode so I made a short list of 12.5" thru 14.1" notebooks with 15W processors (haswell and boardwell) made by HP and few from Dell, all of them have 2 slot memory and most more importantly M.2 slot and SATA 2.5" bay, few can do both or M.2 slot only. Some of the notebooks feature dished keyboard keys. I also strike off the models that uses mPCI modules for any reason even for SSD. They are dying breed and expensive to purchase mSATA SSD.

I do not mind the island keys on newer T530 as my mother has a G570 and I type on it no problem for occasional home-keeping work and top up the still fresh 4 years old battery, just converted it to win 10 recently with no problem.

Aside comment:
If anyone consider Chromebook, which I also really like as well considering limited abilities but key is some can do 12 hours runtime and very quick boot up, since have a Acer C740, make sure to get 4GB for either C720 or C740, and they have swappable SSD 2242 M.2 SSD. Starting from haswell and broadwell, make sure this chromebooks feature dual channel mode usually with complete installed soldered 4GB using 16 bit chips total of 8 chips, many came with 2GB using 4 chips instead of 8 is not in dual channel mode. Also make sure they have swappable SSD module M.2! But problem is even on used market, especially on ebay with mentioned important features previously they tend to cost more than 300 which I can get more capable, used i5 or i7 notebooks with 4 or 8GB, maybe SSD using haswell or broadwell 15W processor in 12.5" or 14" size.

Now back to topic:
The short list of regular notebooks:

HP EliteBook 820 G3 skylake 12.5" 2x memory slots DDR4, M.2 NVMe-SSD.
HP Elitebook 820 G2 broadwell 12.5" 2x memory slots DDR3L, SATA. flash cache
HP Elitebook 820 G1 haswell 12.5" 2x memory slots DDR3L, SATA. flash cache.
HP ProBook 430-G1 haswell 13.3" 2x memory slots DDR3L, SATA.
Dell Latitude 12 E5250 haswell & broadwell 12.5" 2x memory slots DDR3L, SATA. Yes, one model can either have haswell or broadwell, carefully check if you want newer processor against processor list on wiki.
Dell Latitude 12 E7270 skylake 12.5" 2x memory slots DDR4, M.2 SATA mode.
Dell Latitude 14 E5450 broadwell 14" 2x memory slots DDR3L, SATA.

Cheers, thinkpadcollection

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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#19 Post by dr_st » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:33 pm

olex126 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:06 am
re: RBS Omnikey

I went one better with the OmniKey Ultra, with the Function keys along both the sides AND top.

https://imgur.com/a/rMZlo

Purchased in the late 80's and still using it today, even with the missing F10 keycap. I've rebuilt/recalibrated it a couple of times and it has turned a bit yellow over the intervening decades , but the keypress action is still firm and crisp. Slap anywhere in the vicinity of that huge oversize "Enter" key and be sure you've accomplished your mission!

Still have the original keycap puller and manual that came with it. The box was huge, and eventually got tossed. This is a BIG keyboard!
It is also the absolute best layout (unless you need extra character keys, like Nordic or Japanese). It has both a big Enter and a big Backspace. The backslash (which typically does not need to be so big) is to the right of the Right Shift, in a part of the key that is typically unused.

I used to have a keyboard with such a layout and loved it; too bad it was not standardized, and so you can hardly find it nowadays.
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), X1 Carbon (20HQ), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG, X61 7673-V2V
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Summilux
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#20 Post by Summilux » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:10 pm

dr_st wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:13 am
"In the legacy sense"? What does it even mean? If all the discussions on this forum (including this very thread) taught me anything, it is that everyone defines this "legacy" differently from others...
Which retains the main characteristics of classic models. Like, status lights. I think most people would agree that these are a legacy feature.
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#21 Post by dr_st » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:42 pm

Summilux wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:10 pm
Which retains the main characteristics of classic models. Like, status lights. I think most people would agree that these are a legacy feature.
If your best example of a "legacy feature" that people miss, and the absence of which makes the Thinkpad 25 a bad machine is "status lights", then all I can say is - enjoy living in your fantasy that someone, somewhere is going to build / crowdsource / drop out of the blue sky "the machine of your dreams"; you're going to stay living in this fantasy for a long time. :roll:
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), X1 Carbon (20HQ), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG, X61 7673-V2V
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#22 Post by TPFanatic » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:32 pm

Thinkpad 25 has dedicated volume buttons, that's worth something, right?
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#23 Post by ThinkRob » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:37 pm

As soon as another manufacturer consistently produces laptops with great keyboards, high levels of maintainability, a non-useless pointing stick, decent Linux support and does so in durable cases that look professional, I'll switch.

But that's been my policy for the last 8 years, and I'm still using a ThinkPad. Take from that what you will. :lol:
Last edited by ThinkRob on Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#24 Post by Summilux » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:09 pm

dr_st wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:42 pm
If your best example of a "legacy feature" that people miss, and the absence of which makes the Thinkpad 25 a bad machine is "status lights", then all I can say is - enjoy living in your fantasy that someone, somewhere is going to build / crowdsource / drop out of the blue sky "the machine of your dreams"; you're going to stay living in this fantasy for a long time. :roll:
You are interpreting my post in bad faith. But if that's what you need in order to rationalise the dubious existence of the T470-25, so be it.
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#25 Post by edik » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:29 pm

Even if you keep in mind that a budget R40 likely cost more in 2003 than a top-of-the-line workstation today, your claim is simply not true.
R40 was cheaper than the comparable T40... company purchased a few T40 back in '04 for the Moscow office (well I purchased for them) and I think IBM US were selling the T40 for around $1800 then, so the R40 likely -25% (haven't looked at my TP price list post, this is from memory) so the R40 likely around $1500.

Having used multiple models of every series produced 1992-2006 I stand by my claim they were better built, yes they were more expensive (up to $8000 USD in a few cases) but I am not talking about price here but build quality.

Put a 600 or 7XX series up against a T470... and then tell me today we are producing great machines :)

Post IBM '05 the brand has been sinking, pure and simple.

My opinion only :)

2018: T550/16/IPS 3K Touch/72Wh
2007-2018: T450, T520/i7-2760QM/8GB/320GB, WSXGA+, X200s, T500, A31p, A30p, T42p, X60s, X32, X31
Gone but not forgotten 1998-2006: 2006 T43p 2668-H2G (2GB/60), T22 2648-8EG (128/20) 2005 X40, X31 2004 T30 SXGA+, 600X, 2003 770 P233+DVD Card, 760XD 1998 760XL+104MB

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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#26 Post by dr_st » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:20 pm

edik wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:29 pm
R40 was cheaper than the comparable T40... company purchased a few T40 back in '04 for the Moscow office (well I purchased for them) and I think IBM US were selling the T40 for around $1800 then, so the R40 likely -25% (haven't looked at my TP price list post, this is from memory) so the R40 likely around $1500.
I find your numbers believable, and today you can sometimes get a P50 for <$1500, so the point stands.
edik wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:29 pm
Put a 600 or 7XX series up against a T470... and then tell me today we are producing great machines :)
I haven't used or even seen a 600 or 7XX live. I have used Thinkpads extensively since T4x/X3x/R5x generation, and I would not say they are better built than today's Thinkpads. I have encountered some T23 and T30 units, and even some ancient 355CS (I think), and I wouldn't say they were better built either.

Sure, some things were better, but some were worse; plastics would sometimes break, hardware would sometimes fail... not much different from today. Almost every models had characteristic flaws, sometimes minor, sometimes not so minor... And today's machines achieve comparable durability at much lower thickness and weight - that's impressive (well, the hardware shrunk considerably as well).
edik wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:29 pm
Post IBM '05 the brand has been sinking, pure and simple.

My opinion only :)
I think I told you in another discussion - your view is biased to your prejudice that the brand has been sinking since IBM ditched it. I can certainly find aspects in which it is true, and a lot of it is due to general trends in the computing world: trends that IBM would either have to follow or lose the business; you can see what choice they made. But build quality is not one of these aspects. Just like you stand by your opinion, I will stand by mine. :)
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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#27 Post by edik » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:50 pm

I haven't used or even seen a 600 or 7XX live.
You are missing something awesome :)

Image
IBM 760XD c.1997

Machines built as only Engineers can build machines without sales/marketing/manufacturing dictating anything...

I do agree to disagree dr_st.. in fact I can see your viewpoint... but it's not mine :) :)

2018: T550/16/IPS 3K Touch/72Wh
2007-2018: T450, T520/i7-2760QM/8GB/320GB, WSXGA+, X200s, T500, A31p, A30p, T42p, X60s, X32, X31
Gone but not forgotten 1998-2006: 2006 T43p 2668-H2G (2GB/60), T22 2648-8EG (128/20) 2005 X40, X31 2004 T30 SXGA+, 600X, 2003 770 P233+DVD Card, 760XD 1998 760XL+104MB

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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#28 Post by FryPpy » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:00 pm

dr_st wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:14 am
A particular screen ratio has never been anything unique to Thinkpads. If you are upset that the Thinkpad 25 does not have at least a 3:2 screen, and this makes it unacceptable to you, then you are not a fan of Thinkpads, you are a fan of laptops with tall screens
Yes and no;)
I am fan of tall screens too;) But i can explain why it is ThinkPad. My first Laptop was 15" SXGA+.... samsung P25 from 2002. And after 5 years it have died;) And in 2007 I went to the computer mall for a new laptop with 15" SXGA+ screen (to carry in already bought suitcase)..... And allmost all craptops mooved to wide screens 16:10 or worse 16:9. Only business laptops have more conservative design - and first that catch my eye was ThinkPad T60 (latter model with C2D in time where T61 series already hit the market). I believe that it could be dell or HP - but i became ThinkPadder...

I don't remember any troubles when i have mooved from samsung to Thinkpad keyboard layout. But i remember 2 weeks of transition from T60 to X61.... And still in transition to T410 layout with big Del key;)
One day i have played with X41 with UK keyboard layout (with big enter). Great NMB's feedback. But small left shift key and absense of '\' key on it's "right" place make me nervious;)

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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#29 Post by edik » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:00 pm

One day i have played with X41
I bought an X40 (similar to X41?) new in Moscow back in 2005, it lasted a week before the weird 1.8" (?) drive failed.. phoned the Service centre and they collected the old drive and sent me another back all on the same day.... :) The X31 was a far better machine in my opinion!
with UK keyboard layout (with big enter). Great NMB's feedback. But small left shift key and absense of '\' key on it's "right" place make me nervious;)
Have been in Russia since 1999 but haven't yet seen a ThinkPad with a Russian keyboard... and I visit Gorbushka every few weeks :) They may exist but not yet seen one... mind you don't go out of my way to look and get most of my stuff from eBay US ;)

2018: T550/16/IPS 3K Touch/72Wh
2007-2018: T450, T520/i7-2760QM/8GB/320GB, WSXGA+, X200s, T500, A31p, A30p, T42p, X60s, X32, X31
Gone but not forgotten 1998-2006: 2006 T43p 2668-H2G (2GB/60), T22 2648-8EG (128/20) 2005 X40, X31 2004 T30 SXGA+, 600X, 2003 770 P233+DVD Card, 760XD 1998 760XL+104MB

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Re: Anyone else ditching the Thinkpad?!

#30 Post by dr_st » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:21 am

Even pictures of the Russian legacy Thinkpad keyboard are not easy to find!
Here is one:
https://microline.ua/lenovo-thinkpad-t6 ... dka-198464

Russian layout pictures for the new keyboard style seem to be more common. The good thing about them (in my view) is that they use the ANSI, not ISO, physical layout. But I have yet to see a laptop with a Russian keyboard installed. :)
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), X1 Carbon (20HQ), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG, X61 7673-V2V
T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

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