Take a look at our
ThinkPads.com HOME PAGE
For those who might want to contribute to the blog, start here: Editors Alley Topic
Then contact Bill with a Private Message

Shingled magnetic recording [SMR] hard drives (split from mSATA thread)

General Questions, Rumors, Real news & More
Post Reply
Message
Author
w0qj
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1101
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:53 pm
Location: Hong Kong

Shingled magnetic recording [SMR] hard drives (split from mSATA thread)

#1 Post by w0qj » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:30 pm

One final update to this HDD write speed issue; you folks managing fleets of ThinkPad probably know this already:

The newer and slower (!) shingled magnetic recording [SMR] hard drives are so slow that you cannot put these into a RAID configuration!

In fact, the legal lawsuits may now be starting...
Western Digital faces a lawsuit over the specs of some of its hard drives
www.notebookcheck.net/Western-Digital-f ... 601.0.html
w0qj wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:51 pm
...But we do insist that all of our data backup storage is done on PMR hard disks (perpendicular magnetic recording) for longer data archival survival.
...We don't use the newer shingled magnetic recording [SMR] hard drives; these are MUCH slower and subject to write amplification.
Daily Driver: X1 Extreme 1st Gen (X1E1): i7 | 16GB | 1TB | IPS
Current Thinkpads: X1E1 | X1C4 | X1C3 | X250 | X230 | T410
Retired Thinkpads: T42 | 560 (circa 1996)
~~IBM Thinkpad era computer bag !

dr_st
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 8456
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: mSATA in X220/X230

#2 Post by dr_st » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:41 pm

w0qj wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:30 pm
One final update to this HDD write speed issue; you folks managing fleets of ThinkPad probably know this already:

The newer and slower (!) shingled magnetic recording [SMR] hard drives are so slow that you cannot put these into a RAID configuration!
No, I did not know that; this is hardly relevant to laptops, as most laptops, and definitely the one under discussion here will not run drivers in RAID. :mrgreen: Thanks for sharing this, it was quite interesting and important to read. :thumbs-UP:
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T470p (20J7), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

w0qj
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1101
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:53 pm
Location: Hong Kong

Re: mSATA in X220/X230

#3 Post by w0qj » Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:03 am

"Final" update #2, here is the April 2020 article mentioned by Notebookcheck.net :

Western Digital, Seagate, and Toshiba have been using slower technology in some recent hard drives without telling customers
Article date: 04/18/2020
www.notebookcheck.net/Western-Digital-S ... 822.0.html

Me smells lawsuits galore maybe...

***If there is enough interest, shall we migrate this hard drive SMR fiasco into a separate thread elsewhere (instead of this X220 forum)? ;)
Daily Driver: X1 Extreme 1st Gen (X1E1): i7 | 16GB | 1TB | IPS
Current Thinkpads: X1E1 | X1C4 | X1C3 | X250 | X230 | T410
Retired Thinkpads: T42 | 560 (circa 1996)
~~IBM Thinkpad era computer bag !

dr_st
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 8456
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: mSATA in X220/X230

#4 Post by dr_st » Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:07 pm

w0qj wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:03 am
Western Digital, Seagate, and Toshiba have been using slower technology in some recent hard drives without telling customers
Article date: 04/18/2020
www.notebookcheck.net/Western-Digital-S ... 822.0.html

Me smells lawsuits galore maybe...
Strictly speaking, they don't have to tell customers anything, as long as they don't publish false benchmark results, or misadvertise the drives as suitable for specific workloads, for which the technology is not suitable. My understanding is that is the case against WD, not the use of SMR per se.
w0qj wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:03 am
***If there is enough interest, shall we migrate this hard drive SMR fiasco into a separate thread elsewhere (instead of this X220 forum)? ;)
If you insist. ;)
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T470p (20J7), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

w0qj
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1101
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:53 pm
Location: Hong Kong

Re: Shingled magnetic recording [SMR] hard drives (split from mSATA thread)

#5 Post by w0qj » Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:29 pm

A big thank you to dr_st for splitting out the relevant parts of the SMR (Shingled Magnetic Recording) discussion, to make this a new thread!

~Our own focus is to warn other users that hard drives using SMR technology might be incompatible with RAID and/or NAS.

Here is an update: Seems like class action lawsuit may be coming.
www.itproportal.com/news/western-digita ... e-lawsuits
www.hattislaw.com/cases/investigations/ ... wd-red-nas

We're not singling out Western Digital here; if other HDD manufacturers are not careful about their compatibility claims for SMR HDD,
other HDD manufacturers may get into lawsuit troubles too...
Daily Driver: X1 Extreme 1st Gen (X1E1): i7 | 16GB | 1TB | IPS
Current Thinkpads: X1E1 | X1C4 | X1C3 | X250 | X230 | T410
Retired Thinkpads: T42 | 560 (circa 1996)
~~IBM Thinkpad era computer bag !

axur-delmeria
Senior ThinkPadder
Senior ThinkPadder
Posts: 2630
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 5:49 am
Location: Metro Manila, Philippines

Re: Shingled magnetic recording [SMR] hard drives (split from mSATA thread)

#6 Post by axur-delmeria » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:14 am

Ars does some tests on the SMR drives: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06 ... t-garbage/
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

Backup: X601 Core 2 Duo T8100
Toy: X60F Core Solo U1300
On loan: X220 4291-P79 i5-2520M
In pieces: two retired but working X61Ts
RIP: 760XD 9546-U9E; X61 7676-A24; and a BOE-Hydis HV121P01-100 in failed SXGA+ mod
:cry:

kfzhu1229
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1584
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:59 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Shingled magnetic recording [SMR] hard drives (split from mSATA thread)

#7 Post by kfzhu1229 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:07 am

My friend had one of those black Friday deal Seagate Barracuda 3.5" HDD's and it was giving him extremely inconsistent performances even in games. Is that due to SMR as well? Even replacing that drive with a decade old 250GB WD black 7200RPM 2.5" drive solved the problem and no more inconsistency.
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
Lat D830 X9000 8gb 128gb WSXGA+ Ultrasharp fp W10
T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10 (Sharp)
Lat C840 P4-2.5 2gb 60gb W7 (Ultrasharp)

dr_st
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 8456
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: Shingled magnetic recording [SMR] hard drives (split from mSATA thread)

#8 Post by dr_st » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:40 am

axur-delmeria wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:14 am
Ars does some tests on the SMR drives: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06 ... t-garbage/
The conclusion seems to be that there is something specifically about how ZFS works that is completely incompatible with the SMR technology in a way that kills performance (may also kill the drive? I dunno). But other usage patterns, including most NAS configurations, are not hurt as badly.
kfzhu1229 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:07 am
My friend had one of those black Friday deal Seagate Barracuda 3.5" HDD's and it was giving him extremely inconsistent performances even in games.
It would help to know the exact model of the drive, don't you think?
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T470p (20J7), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

olex126
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 3:46 pm
Location: St.Thomas, Ontario, CANADA

Re: Shingled magnetic recording [SMR] hard drives (split from mSATA thread)

#9 Post by olex126 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:09 am

Hi All!

For those of you following the Western Digital SMR/CMR shootout, WD has "clarified" :lol: their position on a new blog post.

Red Plus? Sheesh!

Head on over to Ars for the full details here:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06 ... comments=1

Regards.

Dave
Previous Thinkpads: 701C A22m A30/A31p T23p x2 T30 T41 X31 various 750's 760's & 390's.

DD's & Test Benches: X41T, X60T & X61T's, various T42p-T43p's, x200 x201 x220T x230 T520 W530 T601F LED (X9000/8Gb/250SSD/W7 U)


"Life Is A Journey...Enjoy The Ride!"

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “GENERAL ThinkPad News/Comments & Questions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests