Thinkpads getting worse since the late 1990s?

[pianowizard]

I received a free TP600E (in near-mint condition!) today. I had used two 600 series Thinkpads before, and these are by far the most solid Thinkpads I have ever used. They were truly built like tanks. The T20 series models (I currently own a T20) are also pretty solid, but are noticeably less robust as the 600 series. But the T43 that I recently bought for $719 shipped flexes easily and is far from a "tank". Several recent posts also said something similar about the T60. So, I wonder if the quality of Thinkpads has been going downhill?

[christopher_wolf]

So, I wonder if the quality of Thinkpads has been going downhill?

Nope; all the Thinkpads, including my T43, that I have owned have all demonstrated the same robustness and legendary durability as my 701c; and the 701c was around before the 600s.

This is, of course, unless one would like to bring in the oft-popular whin... shocking complaint about the colors on the trackpoint buttons and how the "pill" volume keys comprimise structual durability.

[Kyocera]

Have you got your hands on a 14" t60? It's pretty solid.

[pianowizard]

Perhaps not everyone does this, but I test the solidness of a Thinkpad by lifting it by the left palm rest with one hand, with the display fully erected. I know it's dangerous to do it often, so I do it only once or twice just for this test. The 600E doesn't flex at all. The T20 and T23, a tiny bit. And the T43, quite a bit.

[christopher_wolf]

I have done that and, not comfortably, have seen my Thinkpad T43 inspected that way. It doesn't flex any more than it should nor more than any other Thinkpad I have used.

You also have to realize that it is larger than the 600 as far as dimensions (width, length) go as well as being significantly thinner, so comparing them by what almost amounts to a fixed beam bending test is technically very errorneous. That is like me holding my 701c from the side, which is thicker and smaller than my T43, then being very proud by saying it doesn't bend at all nor does it flex. Much the same can be said for the T23. Or getting ahold of different lengths of the same wire, loading them and fixing one end, and doing the same thing.

[mfratt]

In terms of build quality, of the Thinkpads I've owned or used extensively:

X21 > X60s > 600E > T22 > T43 > X30 > R40 > R31

I think thats it, might be missing some though...

Anyway, The X21 was probably the most solid TP I've ever used (with the exception of a slight bounce of the screen - but I assume that was due to its age when I bought it). The keyboard was *the best*, and I liked the luxury feel of the rubberized palmrest.

[AlphaKilo470]

I think the least durable or "robust" ThinkPad I've used would be a 560. The best I've ever used would be a 600 with the 760 falling in a close second (the crappy keyboard is why it didn't get first). The T21 was noticably less sturdy than the 600E and had an issue with "creaking" and the keyboard wasn't the best I'd seen. The 570, while almost immune to picking up by palmrest, has plastics that just feel cheap and while there is no creaking issues, the laptop ju doesn't feel as solid as a 600 or 760. The 760 is a tank, that's all I have to say about it. The 380, while having somewhat of a cheap feeling to it and on most 380s I've used, there was plastics chipped away at the bottom corners of the wristpad, the overall computer was very durable and my personal 380ED (which I sold months back) had even withstood a few foot fall onto concrete without even a scuff. The 560 is a great laptop to use but the plastics on the outside of the hinges on the lid seem to break off easily and when held by the wirstpad, the laptop seems to lose some steadiness.

[pianowizard]

You also have to realize that it is larger than the 600 as far as dimensions (width, length) go as well as being significantly thinner.

Good point. I totally forgot that their dimensions differ significantly, although the 600E I tested was 5.61 lbs, vs. the 5.17-lb T43 and the 5.21-lb T20, so the weight factor would tend to cause the 600E to flex more.

But my T43 has two other build problems. First, the palm rest of both the T23 and the 600E feels much stronger than that of my T43, which can be depressed by as much as 2 mm easily. But the touchpad is even worse! There seems to be nothing underneath to support it, and even touching it gently causes it to flex and squeak. Thankfully, this particular touchpad isn't comfortable to use and so I have disabled it anyway.

[pianowizard]

In terms of build quality, of the Thinkpads I've owned or used extensively:

X21 > X60s > 600E > T22 > T43 > X30 > R40 > R31

Interesting ranking. I have used three X20's and one X22, all of which were well built but I remember them being just a little less solid than the 600E.

[christopher_wolf]

But my T43 has two other build problems. First, the palm rest of both the T23 and the 600E feels much stronger than that of my T43, which can be depressed by as much as 2 mm easily. But the touchpad is even worse! There seems to be nothing underneath to support it, and even touching it gently causes it to flex and squeak. Thankfully, this particular touchpad isn't comfortable to use and so I have disabled it anyway.

Wait, what?

Anything at or above a 2mm flex, especially at the touchpad (which is very close to the internals underneath), is not normal. Putting some firm pressure on any part of my palmrest causes less than 1mm flex visually at maximum loading and no noise. It might be a different story if the right palmrest squeaked a little, but that should be it.

Has this T43 ever been disassembled by you or support services?

[pianowizard]

Anything at or above a 2mm flex, especially at the touchpad (which is very close to the internals underneath), is not normal. Putting some firm pressure on any part of my palmrest causes less than 1mm flex visually at maximum loading and no noise. It might be a different story if the right palmrest squeaked a little, but that should be it.

Has this T43 ever been disassembled by you or support services?

The center of the touchpad has the worst flex. So, your T43's touchpad doesn't move at all? The right palm rest is worse than the left one, especially near the "left arrow" key.

I have never disassembled the unit but I am the third or even fourth owner, so one of them could have done something weird. Do you think the touchpad problem can be easily fixed?

EDIT: I just made a more careful estimate of how much the touchpad and the right palm rest could be depressed, and it's closer to 1 mm than to 2 mm. 1.2 mm, perhaps. But that doesn't bother me as much as the squeaky noise, especially that made by the touchpad. It would be great if the touchpad can be strengthened somehow.

[Thinkpaddict]

On my T41p I don't have much flex to talk about. The T43 seems to be very similar, so Christopher is right. You shouldn't have 2mm of flex in the palmrest. I think there is always going to be some variability in the physical fit of each specific Thinkpad due to the tolerances of the different parts. Also probably due to the assembly. Have you tried taking it appart and puting it back together? This things are hand assembled, and maybe someone did a slight mistake. Crap happens like they say.

My X21 and my X24 are almost undistinguishable regarding the build. I consider these to be the Thinkpads (amongst the ones that I own) that have the highest apparent durability. Like already mentioned, this is probably due to the form factor.

My T23 is pretty solid as well. I suppose that if I had to grade the apparent mechanical sturdiness of my Thinkpads it would go like this: X21 = X24 > T23 >= T41p

Like Christopher also said, the fact that the T4x (or T60 for that matter) inspire less confidence as far as response (flexing) to mechanical stress by own weight when holding from a corner is just common sense: Larger surface area, which means more torque due to a center of gravity further away from the holding point, plus a thinner cross-section. It is just common sense, not worse engineering. People keep asking for thinner laptops with bigger screens. There are downsides to this...

By the way, I have never done the "hold from a corner test" in any of my Thinkpads, so I will take your word for it. What are you guys, crazy?

[Thinkpaddict]

Do you think the touchpad problem can be easily fixed?

It can definitely be fixed. It can be fixed for good. It can be fixed totally...Get rid of the sucker Just get the replacement palmrest without a Touchpad. I'm thinking of going that route myself, maybe I'll look for the part number sometime. I hope it's still available.

[pianowizard]

Just get the replacement palmrest without a Touchpad. I'm thinking of going that route myself, maybe I'll look for the part number sometime. I hope it's still available.

Interesting idea, although I would prefer to keep the touchpad.

EDIT: A miracle just happened! I removed the keyboard and the palm rest, and screwed them back on, and the squeaking problem disappeared! Both the touchpad and the palm rests can still be pressed downward easily, but no more noise is generated!

[christopher_wolf]

Excellent.

You know, I was kicking myself for not recommending to take off the keyboard, and then re-screw it down again when I asked the first time (I was debating, but it was either that or get something to eat....Soooo ).

Apparently that made a major improvement in the sturdiness.

[Thinkpaddict]

Nice to hear about the "miracle".

Out of curiosity, since you are not using the touchpad, why do you prefer keeping it?

[pianowizard]

Out of curiosity, since you are not using the touchpad, why do you prefer keeping it?

It would be easier to sell the laptop!

[Thinkpaddict]

That makes sense. Maybe you could keep it, and replace it back in whenever you are ready to sell it.

[claudeo]

My T21 was definitely not the same after my Targus back unzipped and the laptop fell off and bounced down a flight of concrete steps. The latches broke and a corner got chipped On that model the palmrest and keyboard bezel were one piece. This bezel broke on both sides just about the palmrest. That break definitely affected the rigidity of the whole machine. Why, it did not even last three years after that before it started blue-screening when I picked it up. Shoddy engineering for sure. :p
My T60 14 inch feels just as solid as my late t42. I has occasion to use my old T600 for a few days while waiting for my T60 a few weeks ago, and going from one to the other one gets the same solid feeling. I can't speak for the 15 inch models.

[edcard]

I've had the following models: 700, 701C (butterfly), 365X, A21m, X41 and T42p.

Other than the 701C which felt a little flimsy, they have all been very rugged and survived heavy use and the occasional fall. I still have the 700 which is about 14 yrs. old, but unfortunately the case hinges are falling apart.

The 365X, A21m and T42p have always felt pretty sturdy.

[christopher_wolf]

Other than the 701C which felt a little flimsy, they have all been very rugged and survived heavy use and the occasional fall. I still have the 700 which is about 14 yrs. old, but unfortunately the case hinges are falling apart.

Wait, what?

How the hell can the 701c feel flimsy given its dimensions?

Either closed or open it is pretty sturdy no matter what.

[asiafish]

I've had T4x, T2x, X4x, X3x, X2x, 570 and 600 series ThinkPads, and honestly don't think that the quality has changed much over the years. The X20 series are probably my personal favorites for robust construction, with the 600 series a close second, but I think it is entirely subjective and due entirely to the rubber-like coating.

I've dropped and banged all of them, none of them ever gave any grief, and in general I'm very pleased to just match cost, size and speed requirements with the closest ThinkPad and know that I'll be satisfied.

[BillMorrow]

Other than the 701C which felt a little flimsy, they have all been very rugged and survived heavy use and the occasional fall. I still have the 700 which is about 14 yrs. old, but unfortunately the case hinges are falling apart.

Wait, what?

How the hell can the 701c feel flimsy given its dimensions?

Either closed or open it is pretty sturdy no matter what.

i think he's referring to the butterfly keyboard when opened..
the ends DO flex a bit..
flimsy is not the correct term, IMO, flex IS..

AND, again, i say that the business class thinkpads have done nothing but IMPROVE over the years..
what has NOT improved was easy serve..

i have no recent experience but i remember sending a pretty beat up 755CD in and i was rewarded with a beautiful replacement..
i guess they just decided it was too beat up for repair..
in those days whatever you sent in ALWAYS was returned with a new trackpoint cap..

not anymore, sadly..

but with recent events maybe executive level repair is on the way back..

[edcard]

i think he's referring to the butterfly keyboard when opened..
the ends DO flex a bit..
flimsy is not the correct term, IMO, flex IS..

I was indeed referring to the open butterfly keyboard, which I always felt was not very robust.

I also agree that the quality of Thinkpads has improved over the years, at least based on my own experience.

[christopher_wolf]

True, it has flex; but, and I am not ashamed of it, it still has retained its "Cool Factor" better than just about any other device I have seen, with the possible exception of the Transnote, the 800 RS6000 Thinkpads, and a few NECs, Toshibas, and older HP equipment.

[epbrown]

The 701 definitely still turns heads. My laptops tend to rest on a bookcase in the living room, and people browsing the shelves are alway impressed with the 701, then shocked that it's over 10 years old. People tend to fiddle with it, since it's got the original Windows 3.1 install and a copy of MS Arcade and the first DOOM on it.

My Transnote still goes to work regularly, and still grinds meetings to a halt when I first open my portfolio - after which I'm invariably made the "scribe" for said meeting .

Both always get the same comment: "Why don't they make these anymore - they're great!"

[AlphaKilo470]

IF you still have Windows 3.1, then the link below will have something to mess around with. Apparently at one point, IBM released a clone of the OS/2 desktop and shell to be used with Windows 3.1. I have it installed on the English Windows 3.11 installation on my Fujitsu laptop and it not only looks cool but is a lot nicer to work with than that bloody blasted Program Manager.

http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/windows/wpsfw151.zip

On my Fujitsu laptop which still runs Windows 3.1, I'd say the items that see the most use are the games in the Microsoft Entertainment Pack. Namely Tetris and Tapei though I occasionally play Minesweeper.

[BillMorrow]

i should get a 755 or 760 running..
with the original win 3.11..
and try the above tricks..

to refresh y'all's memory, the 755CD cost about $8000 in 1994~ dollars..
more like $12,000 today..
and you got an 80486-75 (or if a newer version) a Pentium 90..
an 810meg (MEG, not gig) HDD..
a 10 inch VGA TFT display..
the ability to add 32meg of memory..
and the usual other stuff like a serial port, parallel port, external video (9 pin), an Ir port, two PCMCIA slots a CD drive which was swappable with a floppy drive or a TV tuner..

and to refresh even more memory, do not forget the 700C, the more or less original thinkpad..
10 inch VGA TFT display, 120meg HDD, 4 meg of memory, i forget the exact cpu (i THINK it was a 386-25) but i had an optional blue thunder or some such upgrade in my 700C.. only two CC memory slots in the side, no PCMCIA or Ir..
a floppy and a few ports and THAT one cost $8000 too.. in 1991 or 92 dollars..

so when i sit down with this T60p list price about $3500 with all that it has and better (but different) quality i can say that quality is NOT going downhill..
it IS changing to meet the needs of the customer..
you can not build a "tank" like the 770 was and have it half as thick, lighter, larger and so forth without losing a little rigidity..
remember that there are more openings in the side of a T40 and T60 series than a 770 or 600 series..


currently i use aT60p, an X60s and a transnote for taking notes while on the phone and then storing them and for monitoring the router and more..
the transnote was abandoned probably because, as an ex-ibm employee said at the time, ib,m just did not market the transnote to the right people or in the right way..
it has features a tablet does not have.. at least yet..

[AlphaKilo470]

700C would be a 486SLC (essentially a tweaked 386SX) running at 25mhz and it would be late 1992.

It's funny because I still remember how expensive computers were back in the 1990s and how now, even with inflation in the equation computers of today are still fractions cheaper yet we still complain about the prices.

[revolutionary_one]

Maybe the more apt question isnt the quality of the thinkpad as it comes new in box from the ODM to Lenovo the distributor.

But more so, the quality of service that Lenovo and its subcontractors have been providing since the buy out.

Maybe someone should start a thread documenting a balanced perspective on the quality of service that clients have been getting from various levels of use and various models.