Magic Devices, Germany = don't buy

[felixdv]

Hello

This thread is mainly directed at potential buyers of a Thinkpad notebook in Germany. These are my experiences with a German store "Magic Devices" (http://magicdevices.de), and why I want to prevent people from buying from them.

About 3 weeks ago I ordered a Thinkpad T60 from Magic Devices. They seemed to have good prices, and since i'm from Belgium, it was interesting price-wise to go look in Germany for a Thinkpad.

The thinkpad was labeled "new, open box". This bothered me a bit, so I mailed MagicDevices with the question what this really means. This was their answer:
"that means, that the Thinkpad was opened once before and comes maybe not in the original IBM package. but the book is absolutley new and not used in any kind."

Fair enough, I placed the order, and used (UPS) shipping to Belgium. After I transfered the money, I got a confirmation, and the notebook was shipped to my address.

Upon unpacking, the notebook looked new, with a clear screen and unused keyboard, so I was glad i've made a (seemingly) good deal. BUT: that evening I was looking at the bottom of the thinkpad and I've noticed a crack in the plastic cover of one of the air vents. On further inspection, I noticed several small scratches in the plastic, as if the notebook has fallen on the ground. Magic Devices tries to sell damaged laptops as "new, open box", but doesn't mention the damage to the notebook. Although the damage does not affect the working of the notebook (it functions ok, fortunately), it isn't something that should happen on unpacking a new notebook.
Here is a picture of the main damage:
http://board.webware.be/t60_damage.jpg

The damage is clearly not caused by the UPS transport, as the packaging was in perfect condition, not a single knock in the shipping box. The notebook itself was also very tight secured, with not a single possible way that the shipping could have caused the damage.

I questioned Magic Devices (by mail) about the damage. And they requested pictures of the damage. Seemingly thankfull that they were willing to do something about the problem, I took the pictures and sent them to MagicDevices. THIS IS THE LAST TIME I'VE HEARD FROM MAGICDEVICES.
Till now I have sent about 3 more mails, kindly requesting for a solution to this problem, and I haven't got a single reply back. As my knowledge of German language is not good, I don't know what (legal) steps I can take to solve this problem. I know there is a 14 days return policy in Germany, and I have used that, seeing that I've contacted (mailed) MD the same evening that I got the notebook.

I'm definitely not the only one having this problem, looking at this thead on a different (German) thinkpad forum. All the same problems: http://www.thinkpad-forum.de/thread.php?threadid=9714

I would advice everyone planning to buy a Thinkpad in Germany not to buy notebooks (or anything) with Magic Devices. They try to sell damaged hardware and don't have the decency to even reply to my communication.

I'm not used to go out and tell stuff like this, but this time I'll be glad to do anything to stop potential buyers from going to Magic Devices and buying a notebook there.

Regards,
Felix

Moderator edit: Please, no embedded pic without a warning in subject line.

[dsigma6]

It's a shame how some businesses operate- and continue to operate after such deception.

If there is a bright side to it, at least the damage is on the bottom, not on the LCD like the one at the top of the forum you linked to!

[felixdv]

It's a shame how some businesses operate- and continue to operate after such deception.

If there is a bright side to it, at least the damage is on the bottom, not on the LCD like the one at the top of the forum you linked to!

Yeah, the laptop operates fine and looks mostly new otherwise, but it's not done to try and sell a damaged laptop, no matter what.

My guess is that the laptop has been sold before, fallen on the ground, returned and then sold "new, open box". The lack of communication clearly indicates that something is wrong.

[dorin]

felix, as far as i know germany has a very very stron policy when it comes to customer protection. you can return a any product within one month with no explenation.

but how to do it, i have no clue.

check ebay.de as there almost all the items have quotes from that law.

did you try to call them? i also had a pb when ordering the aquarium(2m long) and its equipment. mailing was insainly slow, but when called them everything went smooth

cheers,

dorin

[Grey Area]

I agree, you should definitely make use of the German laws for online purchases, they give the customer a lot of rights, specifically stating that you do not have to give a reason for a return. (So for example, if one buys a notebook with pixel errors, and the manufacturer says that this number of bad pixels is acceptable, then one can return it anyway.)

With electronics the time for a return is only 14 days, but that is still plenty of time. The exact way returns are handled varies from seller to seller - most will want you to contact them first. Some will send you a prepaid box in which to return the item. Others will first let you pay the return shipping, then refund it together with the price of purchase.

Unfortunately the website of magicdevices does not have much regarding their return policy - to me it looks like you can just put the Thinkpad into the box and send it back to them, but the text is written in German legalese, and I'm not a lawyer. And of course it sounds a bit risky given the value, so you might want to wait a bit for a reply from them. Still, they have to accept the return by law.

Björn

[beeblebrox]

I agree, you should definitely make use of the German laws for online purchases, they give the customer a lot of rights, specifically stating that you do not have to give a reason for a return. (So for example, if one buys a notebook with pixel errors, and the manufacturer says that this number of bad pixels is acceptable, then one can return it anyway.)

With electronics the time for a return is only 14 days, but that is still plenty of time. The exact way returns are handled varies from seller to seller - most will want you to contact them first. Some will send you a prepaid box in which to return the item. Others will first let you pay the return shipping, then refund it together with the price of purchase.

Unfortunately the website of magicdevices does not have much regarding their return policy - to me it looks like you can just put the Thinkpad into the box and send it back to them, but the text is written in German legalese, and I'm not a lawyer. And of course it sounds a bit risky given the value, so you might want to wait a bit for a reply from them. Still, they have to accept the return by law.

Björn

During a business assignment in Munich this summer (a.k. a. world cup soccer), I happened to visit this store. They are actually really small, close at the river Isar in Munich downtown. They have a selection of Thinkpads (new and used), some Acers, Sonys, HPs. The guys were knowledgeable and helpful.
Being somewhat multi-lingual myself, the webpage of that store says that you can retreat from your purchase within 14 days without giving any reason. 14 days, starting from getting your package delivered. You should keep the notebook unused, and shipping costs are on your behalf.

A friend of mine bought there a used T22 , without problem (and because I am in Munich on business reasons several times a year), but I got a note that on another forum (Thinkpad-forum.de) a lot of people seem to complain about that store. So, better stay away from them?

[beeblebrox]

I agree, you should definitely make use of the German laws for online purchases, they give the customer a lot of rights, specifically stating that you do not have to give a reason for a return. (So for example, if one buys a notebook with pixel errors, and the manufacturer says that this number of bad pixels is acceptable, then one can return it anyway.)

With electronics the time for a return is only 14 days, but that is still plenty of time. The exact way returns are handled varies from seller to seller - most will want you to contact them first. Some will send you a prepaid box in which to return the item. Others will first let you pay the return shipping, then refund it together with the price of purchase.

Unfortunately the website of magicdevices does not have much regarding their return policy - to me it looks like you can just put the Thinkpad into the box and send it back to them, but the text is written in German legalese, and I'm not a lawyer. And of course it sounds a bit risky given the value, so you might want to wait a bit for a reply from them. Still, they have to accept the return by law.

Björn

During a business assignment in Munich this summer (a.k. a. world cup soccer), I happened to visit this store. They are actually really small, close at the river Isar in Munich downtown. They have a selection of Thinkpads (new and used), some Acers, Sonys, HPs. The guys were knowledgeable and helpful.
Being somewhat multi-lingual myself, the webpage of that store says that you can retreat from your purchase within 14 days without giving any reason. 14 days, starting from getting your package delivered. You should keep the notebook unused, and shipping costs are on your behalf.

A friend of mine bought there a used T22 , without problem (and because I am in Munich on business reasons several times a year), but I got a note that on another forum (Thinkpad-forum.de) a lot of people seem to complain about that store. So, better stay away from them?

sorry, I got it messed up. They say that shipping costs are on their behalf. On the other forum (Thinkpad-forum.de) a lot of folks complain that magic devices refused to accept parcels delivered at their costs. So I suggest to fax them immedialy and send them the notebook fully postage paid and have the costs refunded with the total purchase price.

I forgot to tell, that the folks working there seemed not to be Germans, only the shop owner is. Maybe the employees mess it up sometimes.

[felixdv]

Thanks for all the helpful replies!

I'm just not very comfortable sending a notebook back without having some sort of notice of cooperation from Magic Devices.
As I read correctly, I should have to pay for the shipping costs? That's just wrong with a damaged notebook.

Today I finally got a reply from Magic Devices, saying basically that they're very surprised by the damage, and some sort of unclear statement that they can't really do anything in regard to the problem.
No real solution has been proposed, and I'm starting to get aggravated by the denying attitude of MD..

[gearguy]

There is a store called PC WORLD in the UK that re-sells returned goods for full price!


I returned a stick of ram that wasn't working once, and they exchanged it for another one that had been returned...

[beeblebrox]

Thanks for all the helpful replies!

I'm just not very comfortable sending a notebook back without having some sort of notice of cooperation from Magic Devices.
As I read correctly, I should have to pay for the shipping costs? That's just wrong with a damaged notebook.

Today I finally got a reply from Magic Devices, saying basically that they're very surprised by the damage, and some sort of unclear statement that they can't really do anything in regard to the problem.
No real solution has been proposed, and I'm starting to get aggravated by the denying attitude of MD..

Just my short advice: the guys in the store were not native Germans, rather some East Europeans who probably lived some time now in Germany.
Maybe you experience their *** cough *** Russian, Polish, whatever... "Business Practices".

Call them on the phone, explain what happened and immediately get your lawyer. On the other thinkpad forum, German buyers complained about exactly the same problems with "new", but damaged notebooks shipped.

I guess, only brute force works with those guys. A good lawyer is a very brute force for them.
Anyway, there are a lot of certified Thinkpad Centers in Germany (with equal and better prices), why not try those?

[2647-4EG]

By German law you can withdraw from the contract without giving any reasons within 14 days after delivery. But YOU have to prove that you did that - so better use a registered letter and not just eMail or Fax in case you don't trust the dealer. They might be playing for time! But even returning the item within a fortnight but without any prior notice will suffice. MD will have to refund the postage for your return shipment. I'm not sure if they have to return the price for the initial shipping to Belgium, though. Anyway, this is just the basic German return policy - regardless whether your item is damaged or not.

Alternatively you could argue that your notebook is faulty. Then the dealer is allowed up to two attempts to deliver a flawless Thinkpad. If they don't succeed, you are entitled to return it. If you choose this option, MD will definitively have to pay for the complete P&P.

http://www.ecc-net.info might be of help to you if MD won't cooperate.