About the back door to China Govt built into Thinkpads?

[jgrobertson]

At a conference, Techno Security, I heard from one with a badge that said "US Army" that the Govenment no longer uses Lenovo Thinkpads because they discovered that a back door had been built into the hardware such that when the blue Thinkpad or ThinkVantage key is pressed, data from the computer is sent to a server in China. Further that this was espionage.

I read something about this a while back but it was not advertised. If true then some question immediately come up:

• What has been done about this?
  Why are they allowed to continue selling these in the US?
  Who went to prison for treason?
  Who is responsible to me for the costs to replace the three Lenovo Thinkpads I own and the for the damages from having our government allow my personal information to be stolen by a foreign government and for allowing this to continue after it was known.

Note from Admin: Even though my Troll meter is clanging loudly, I'm going to leave this here for a while as long as it can be discussed in a rational and civil manner. If it turns into a Lenovo-bashing rant and rave, it will be shut down, so conduct yourselves accordingly.

[wolf-zhang]

I've also heard that Bill Gates has build a backdoor in the windows system.

Dude, dont spread some news that is not confirmed.

I dont believe these topics should be posted here.

[bobbarker]

Reminds me of how back in the first half of the 20th century anything German (even 'German' beer brewed in the US) was considered taboo and evil because of WWI and WWII.

[BeeJayEmm]

It strains credibility that "someone" at a "Security conference" who wore a badge that said U.S. Army (perhaps from the oxymoronic "Army Intelligence"?) had anything substantive to say. If they really were legit, their badge wouldn't say it. Why would the back door be so poorly crafted that it relied on the user to act (i.e. push the Blue Button) in order to send the info? It would work in the background whenever it could connect to its server. I'm a pretty skeptical person but this seems like nonsense. What are they going to tell you at a "security conference"? That everything's OK so you wasted your money, or that there are commies under your palm rest? I'm getting a Gen. Jack Ripper flashback.

[ulrich.von.lich]

...such that when the blue Thinkpad or ThinkVantage key is pressed, data from the computer is sent to a server in China. Further that this was espionage...

Even if it's true, doing a fresh install of Windows should solve the problem.

(Or install Linux if the Windows collecting information undetectably thing is true..)

I believe personal information is more likely to be stolen by software than by hardware. With a blank HDD, a ThinkPad is no difference than a Dell.

[XCoalMiner]

It would be easy to prove or disprove. Install Ethereal (newly named WireShark), press button, observe outgoing data.

Let us know what you find.

[Dead1nside]

Show me some proof. I understand that governments tend to only use homegrown technology in mission critical systems for _fear_ of espionage. However suggesting that Lenovo has intentionally planted backdoors in their programs is a step too far for me. Again, show me some proof.

[gator]

You are being overly paranoid. If you don't trust Lenovo, you can always sell your thinkpads and move on to another manufacturer (but remember that almost all computers today are assembled elsewhere). Trust me, there will be enough buyers even on the marketplace if your price is right.

This forum is not a place to spread baseless and totally unnecessary FUD.

[Kyocera]

That must be why my dog starts barking everytime I push the Thinkvantage button, must be super high frequency sound waves transmitting my data or something, I thought it was just the aliens my dog gets frequent visits from. Good to know this.

.

[XCoalMiner]

If your dog stars to wear those aluminum foil hats, that's where I'd draw the line.

[jgrobertson]

Show me some proof. I understand that governments tend to only use homegrown technology in mission critical systems for _fear_ of espionage. However suggesting that Lenovo has intentionally planted backdoors in their programs is a step too far for me. Again, show me some proof.

This is not exactly proof, but it is true that the Dept. of Commerce did, per Washington Post article(s), replace all their computers both hardware and software because the the Chinese Government had penetrated their network. I don't recall seeing any detailed follow up on this. It is not a secret nor is it paranoid to recognize that China is conducting espionage in the United States.

Nor is it unreasonable to realize that it would make sense for China to take advantage of having control over the design and manufacturing of computers used by the US Government to bug them somehow for purposes of either Government or Industrial espionage.

[Kyocera]

This is not exactly proof, but it is true that the Dept. of Commerce did, per Washington Post article(s), replace all their computers both hardware and software because the the Chinese Government had penetrated their network. I don't recall seeing any detailed follow up on this. It is not a secret nor is it paranoid to recognize that China is conducting espionage in the United States.

I read through some articles and didn't find a mention of Lenovo or Thinkpads Even a Washington Post article I sure hope everyone does not believe everything they read in the newspapers anyway.

said the hackers had penetrated the computers with a "rootkit" program, a stealthy form of software that allows attackers to mask their presence and then gain privileged access to the computer system. The attacks were traced to Web sites registered on Chinese Internet service providers, Commerce officials said.

I think anyone who connects to the internet is a target for all kinds of bad things. Having been in the Army for many many years which I would consider a branch of the Govt I can tell you that not all branches of the Govt are as secure as the NSA. Funding and personnel effect network security just like they do in the civilian world. I'd still like to see a reference to the Thinkvantage Button of death

[Dead1nside]

jgroberstson: Most countries with the money and the facilities are conducting espionage in countries, even if they are allies. That might be a paranoid statement but it's not an unreasonable one.

Your point is also very true, hence the paranoia. Big American firm like IBM gets their notebook division taken over by a Chinese company and it does look dodgy. However the government would have looked into such things and if they could find anything would have blown the roof wide open on it.

From my reading there is certainly speculation that China has in it's government militant hackers seeking to disrupt certain things but I just think that the idea that Lenovo has some hardwired backdoor (And that is what it would need to be) in all it's system is about as preposterous as the prosecution claiming that the famed hacker Kevin Mitnick could set off nuclear explosions if he was given a telephone receiver to whistle down.

Edit: Furthermore to Kyocera's point: There are much easier ways and less risky ways at infiltrating foreign governments than this. It is easier to plant insiders who can just read all the passwords stuck on post-it notes on the monitors, under the keyboards. I think you'll get what I mean. Most determined hackers given our connected world could crack a computer with enough time. There's simply no need to suggest that Lenovo is bugging or conducting espionage with their products. It's baseless.

[qviri]

This is why I am so glad to have an older Thinkpad that transfers data from the computer to a server in the United States when you press the Access IBM button.

[ajkula66]

qviri wrote:

This is why I am so glad to have an older Thinkpad that transfers data from the computer to a server in the United States when you press the Access IBM button.

That's what they want you to think, that the server is in USA, meanwhile...

George Orwell must be laughing very hard, wherever he is...

[ryengineer]

jgrobertson, you've been misled, believing anything from unreliable sources without a proof is preposterous. It's quite possible the officer you met was wary of Chinese companies after the recent incident (supposedly) with Gutierrez's laptop in Beijing and the anecdote he put to you could just be a cautionary tale in order to brainwash you towards Asian companies, government is good at doing that.

As far as government's involvement with the usage of thinkpads are concerned, the matter of fact is that they still use them but not for sensitive data anymore.

[BillMorrow]

jgrobertson seems to have a concern..

any intelligent person already knows that an unfounded rumor will travel around the world at the speed of light while real facts get stuck at the security check gate..

my guess is that we have more to worry about from muslim terrorists and the like that the chinese government having a back door into each computer produced in china..
which would be just about ALL of them..!

also, there are enough people tinkering with thinkpads that if such existed it would be found out "right quick"..

so, general jack ripper, relax and have some more popcorn..
(where is that popcorn smilie when i need it! )

[rkawakami]

[milstein]

I don't believe that is true
As for the ThinkVantage button, I (or every Thinkpad hackish users) would like to know the working mechanism, so that I can self-build a restore "predesktop" partition and rescue & recover workspace environment out of Linux and to create some nice looking and convenient backup and emergency recovery means

Now, I only know that it works for Windows, and I can only backup Windows and its files. What if I want to backup other partitions and systems, say Ubuntu or OS X?

[j-dawg]

I believe the government stopped using Lenovo hardware because it was concerned with the possibility of the Chinese government doing something underhanded, not because it had already happened.

I'd say it's a legitimate concern for a government agency, but it's not like I have anything the Chinese government would want, so I'll stick with Lenovo.

[wswartzendruber]

I believe the government stopped using Lenovo hardware because it was concerned with the possibility of the Chinese government doing something underhanded, not because it had already happened.

I'd say it's a legitimate concern for a government agency, but it's not like I have anything the Chinese government would want, so I'll stick with Lenovo.

I will tell you right now that at least one branch of the service uses T60s.

[j-dawg]

Curses! They might know about my unpaid parking tickets!

To be honest, I didn't do any research before making that post, but I do recall reading a news article a long time ago about some agency switching IT suppliers after the Lenovo transition, and I'd kind of assumed that it was just a blanket policy. Of course, with governments being big, complex organizations, I suppose it isn't easy to instate a blanket policy on anything.

[arion]

Why would China use Lenovo to spy on people when they know it will be looked at as they own part of Lenovo.

Why not Dell or others. So much of the stuff is made in China and Twain you just bribe / blackmail people working for Dell, HP, Acer etc to add a backdoor.

No way are you going to place a backdoor on a machine you know is going to be looked at hard unless you want people to know about it.

[mattbiernat]

i think the only reason that U.S. gov't doesn't want lenovo laptops is not because they are made in china but because they are owned by Chinese corporation. All the other excuses, are just that, excuses. it seems a little bit insulting that the people in the gov't think that we will believe their nonsense.

[fuscob]

it seems a little bit insulting that the people in the gov't think that we will believe their nonsense.

It certainly is insulting (and this isn't the only instance), but enough people do believe it, so they keep doing it!