T23 eBay mess (caveat emptor)

[Thinker]

Hello,

I posted this as a response to another current topic (T23 Ebay Story - For Amusement), but I thought it warranted a thread of its own. Try to learn from my mistakes, as it will save you countless hours of frustration.

I am immersed in a situation involving a "virtually perfect" T23 described to me to "look and operate like new, with no wear or defects". The seller had 100% positive feedback, so I thought everything would be fine. How wrong I was...

When the laptop gets here, the first thing I see (the laptop is wrapped in bubblewrap) is that the AC adaptor leads are bent badly. I think OK, don't panic maybe the computer will be as described...
I proceed to unwrap the computer, and I am presented with an obviously used and worn out outer casing. Crap...
So I open the screen. More crap: The left latch is broken and I need to move it with my finger because it is stuck!!!!!
Once I open the laptop, I don't believe what I see. The amount of dirt is incredible, the screen is beaten up and dirty. The keyboard has shiny keys and so much dirt between the keys that I begin to wonder if this laptop has been kept in a pigpen (Probably not, it would be cleaner if that were the case). The Intel sticker on the palmrest is sticking up and hanging by a thread (the least of my problems, but still!)
I proceed inspecting the laptop. I turn it on, and to my horror I see that there are several bright spots in the screen (Someone later tells me that this is most likely damage in the background diffusor foil). The amount of dirt in every port interface is inexcusable.

Basically, this "virtually perfect" and "like new" T23 turned out to be virtually useless and like it was used by a 4 year old kid in a sandbox. Obviously, at this point I am pretty [censored] off. I email the seller and tell them about all the problems (like he didn't know ).
He gets back to me saying that "virtually perfect" and "like new" are relative terms. When I hear this I almost can't believe it, since these are probably the least relative terms that you can use when describing the condition of an item in eBay. He proceeds to say he feels insulted by my email, but that he will refund my money (discounting the shipping both ways and his eBay fees).
I respond saying that although I shouldn't be paying for shipping and his eBay fees since this mess is a product of his blatant misrepresentation of the item, I accept.
Next thing I know, the guy tells me that now I have offended him and that he will decide what amount to refund at his discretion (arbitrarily). Obviously, this does it for me. I call on the phone, and after being able to have him pick up the phone, he hangs up on me after 15 seconds, saying that I shouldn't call him but just use email (Hey folks, I'm just using eBay procedure to resolve transaction issues, plus I am being polite and respectful all the way).

To make things shorter, I email the guy and let him know that what he has done (blatant misrepresentation of an item) falls squarely within the legal definition of fraud. I tell him that I have had the condition of the item documented. I also tell him that I will forcefully pursue litigation through eBay, PayPal, and my Credit Card company (I didn't tell him I will also look into possible legal (as in small claims court) action)

Finally, he emails back and tells me that he will refund my money (but not the shipping or his eBay fees). Once more, I agree. He tells me that he will let me know when his COD money order (I had to split the payment in a PayPal payment and a COD payment since he didn't want to upgrade his account which has a monthly limit) gets there. The money order went out on Monday, and it is now Saturday. I was told by USPS that it should take 3 days to get there...I guess this ain't over.

I am [censored] off and angry with myself obviously.
Let this be a cautionary tale to all of you that are thinking about going the eBay route. Even if your seller has 100% positive feedback, that doesn't mean anything. Only bid on auctions from sellers you have a very good reason to trust (beyond positive feedback), and require to see pictures of the actual item being auctioned. Better yet: Buy direct from IBM or from Bill.

Have a happy new year.

Ruben

[carbon_unit]

Who is this seller?
That way he won't make a sucker out of another forum member.
(especially ME, I'm watching a few on ebay)

[rocketman]

I have a question about his 100% eBay feedback, how many feedbacks did he have and were any of the feedbacks for a similarly priceed item?

[DaveO]

I have a question about his 100% eBay feedback, how many feedbacks did he have and were any of the feedbacks for a similarly priceed item?

Ditto. Positive feedback of 1 is still 100%..... have to research quantity, quality, value of items, from buyers or sellers? and age of feedbacks before handing over $$

[cszy67]

Sorry to hear about your misfortune - I hope all works out well for you.

The eBay rating system lacks a value metric. If a user has 100% rating and has sold ten items at an average value of $3 so what?!? Now consider another user that has a 100% rating and has sold ten items with an average value of $750 each - different story!

Ebay will only allow you to read so far back into anothers history - usually 30 days or something.

May I suggest you contact the local police/sheriff/DA in the members city - most all towns have a specific unit that deals with internet fraud. You would be amazed at what a call from a local LEO will do to a bad seller.

Best of luck!

[ThinkPad]

Do you have a link to the auction. Sorry about your mishap, hopefully it will turn out for the better.

[chrisnyc]

What an awful story -- so sorry to hear how you were lied to and defrauded. Would you mind telling us just how much you paid for the T23 'bill of goods' ? Some time ago I bought a couple of peripheral parts on E-bay for my Dell notebook -- I actually spoke to the seller by phone and arranged to pay him by credit card because I was not registered on E-bay -- and it worked out well, and I subsequently bought another somewhat more expensive item from him, and it was fine -- but they were all credit card purchases.

Thanks for the heads-up. I think I will be purchasing my Thinkpad directly from IBM !

[Marc_G]

Hi Thinker-

Add my condolences to the others already posted about your bad experience. I do have a followup question, though:

This guy clearly defrauded you, but you agreed (twice) to pay the ebay fees and shipping both ways. Why???

If I had bought something labeled as virtually new, and got something in the condition you described, the seller would be paying for all fees and shipping costs, end of story.

Maybe I am just ignorant of ebay policies; perhaps they favor the seller.

Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.

Marc

[BillMorrow]

your ebay horror story is, well, a horror..

you need to contact ebay and the local PD to the seller..

you need to get his contact info and make sure it is valid..

you need to complain to paypal..

you DO have some limited power to takt this guys feedback rating down a notch or two..

you need to do it NOW as he might just take the money and rin..

also, who is this seller..
bad publicity is one of your biggest weapons to recover your money..

also, by being a registered user here, you have a limited ability to ask other thinkpad members to give the goods a personal inspection..

i don't often sell on ebay due to the rampant buyer fraud and the competition from sellers like you encountered..
selling junk and depressing the market for honest sellers..

next time you need a used thinkpad, post a want to buy ad in the for sale section..
and if you want a NEW thinkpad, ask me..

goood luck getting your $$ back..

just FWIW, i recently bid on a software/hardware system for diagnosing my mercedes computers.. all of them.. a slick system..
and was prepared to buy but i was a bis suspicious..
and demanded a photo of the original CD and the s/n..
at that point the seller said it was a hacked bootleg copy..

all this points up to the problems with ebay..
do your homework and be careful..

RR said it best: "Trust, but verify"

[JaneL]

>Thanks for the heads-up. I think I will be purchasing my Thinkpad directly from IBM !
>

Well, you can also be perfectly safe buying one from Bill...

[Thinker]

Who is this seller?
That way he won't make a sucker out of another forum member.
(especially ME, I'm watching a few on ebay)

Hello carbon_unit,

This seller doesn't specialize in Thinkpads. The T23 that I got was his personal computer, so there is no risk of anyone having the same luck as I had.

However, if things don't work out I will surely post a link to the auction in this forum. The latest news is that this person has contacted me and told me that he received the money order on Friday evening. He has told me to send the computer, and if it is in the same condition as he sent it, he will refund me $650.

Obviously, the computer is in the same condition (beaten up and dirty to be exact) as I received it in. I sure hope this guy doesn't try to pull one on me and tell me that the computer is not in the same condition. Luckily, I have documented the condition of the laptop, but I am not sure this will be enough to protect me from the guy busting the screen or whatever and telling me he won't refund my money. Is there anything I could do?
Like certify its condition by someone else/some agency?

By the way, I reiterate my advice: If you need to buy used, buy from IBM certified used program. 7 days no questions asked return policy, and apparently all refurbished notebooks do really look like new. If you need to buy new, buy from IBM, or better yet, buy it from Bill.

Ruben

[Thinker]

I have a question about his 100% eBay feedback, how many feedbacks did he have and were any of the feedbacks for a similarly priceed item?

Rocketman,

He had 49 positive feedbacks (if memory doesn't fail me), but no feedbacks for similarly priced items. Furthermore, most of the feedbacks were for him as a buyer (not a seller). Furthermore, this makes me stupid (you don't need to mention it), I know.

What the hell was I thinking? I really don't know. I suppose I placed my trust in someone who didn't deserve it, and I wasn't cautious enough. Like I said before, never trust positive feedback alone. I know that a seller with an almost perfect feedback rating and with a history of selling a lot of similarly priced items would have been a more reliable source, but even then that is not guarantee. By the way, eBay should have a policy which required all sellers to post clear pictures of the item in question, and a clear description of any flaws. But eBay won't ever do that unless forced, because they would be shooting themselves in the foot.

Ruben

[Thinker]

I have a question about his 100% eBay feedback, how many feedbacks did he have and were any of the feedbacks for a similarly priceed item?

Ditto. Positive feedback of 1 is still 100%..... have to research quantity, quality, value of items, from buyers or sellers? and age of feedbacks before handing over $$

DaveO,

I agree with you. I should just have been much more cautious (read: much less stupid)

Even so, crap can happen even with the most "reliable" eBay sellers. As a matter of fact, let's say you have a mishap with one of these power sellers. Who do you think eBay will side with? You? Or a guy that eBay makes a few thousand dollars off every month? Even if things get resolved, it will take a considerable amount of time and effort on your behalf. Completely unlike buying from IBM or Bill.

To remain positive somewhat, I consider this to be a hard earned lesson. Regardless of the outcome, it has been a heartache after another, and not worth the experience in any case. I doubt I will be using eBay in the future. At least not for items over $100 or so.

Regards

[Thinker]

Sorry to hear about your misfortune - I hope all works out well for you.

The eBay rating system lacks a value metric. If a user has 100% rating and has sold ten items at an average value of $3 so what?!? Now consider another user that has a 100% rating and has sold ten items with an average value of $750 each - different story!

Ebay will only allow you to read so far back into anothers history - usually 30 days or something.

May I suggest you contact the local police/sheriff/DA in the members city - most all towns have a specific unit that deals with internet fraud. You would be amazed at what a call from a local LEO will do to a bad seller.

Best of luck!

cszy67,

Thanks for your empathy
This has been a very bad experience, but posting in this forum has been some sort of therapy. Plus, if I get a few people scared away from doing the same mistake as I did, all the crap I have been going through for the past week will have been (almost) worth it.

I agree about eBay rating system being flawed. Also their auction posting guidelines should perhaps be somewhat more strict.

Regarding your suggestion to contact Law Enforcement, I had already been giving that a thought, and that's probably what I will do if things end up not working out. This isn't about just money anymore. Nobody likes being taken advantage of, and I am no exception.

Regards,

Ruben

[Thinker]

Do you have a link to the auction. Sorry about your mishap, hopefully it will turn out for the better.

Hi Thinkpad,

First of all, thanks for your wishes.

Like I said in a previous post, the seller just contacted me this morning (Sunday) and told me he had received the money order on Friday evening.
He is telling me to return the laptop and (once he verifies it is in the same condition as he sent it) he will refund PART of MY money.

Also, he is not a Thinkpad seller per se (this was his personal laptop).

However, if things don't work out, I will for sure post a link to the auction (along with a transcript of all our emails), just to make sure you guys know about it.

Ruben

[Thinker]

What an awful story -- so sorry to hear how you were lied to and defrauded. Would you mind telling us just how much you paid for the T23 'bill of goods' ? Some time ago I bought a couple of peripheral parts on E-bay for my Dell notebook -- I actually spoke to the seller by phone and arranged to pay him by credit card because I was not registered on E-bay -- and it worked out well, and I subsequently bought another somewhat more expensive item from him, and it was fine -- but they were all credit card purchases.

Thanks for the heads-up. I think I will be purchasing my Thinkpad directly from IBM !

chrisnyc,

Thanks for your kind words. I am happy to hear that you had much better luck in the past. For what it's worth, let me tell you that I had good luck in the past as well (I have bought about 40 items in the past 4 years in eBay ranging from very inexpensive items to $700 items, with no major disappointments). However, when the crap hits the fan (which it eventually will) all this past history of satisfactory transactions won't be of much comfort.

How much did I pay? I paid $679.00 for a like new, virtually perfect T23. I wouldn't value the unit I actually got for more than $350, and even then I wouldn't buy it at all because that's not what I require.

Please, do buy your Thinkpads from IBM (or even better, from Bill, who will cherrypick a perfect one for you without the uncertainty of getting one with dead pixels).

Take care,

Ruben

[Thinker]

Hi Thinker-

Add my condolences to the others already posted about your bad experience. I do have a followup question, though:

This guy clearly defrauded you, but you agreed (twice) to pay the ebay fees and shipping both ways. Why???

If I had bought something labeled as virtually new, and got something in the condition you described, the seller would be paying for all fees and shipping costs, end of story.

Maybe I am just ignorant of ebay policies; perhaps they favor the seller.

Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.

Marc

Marc,

Thanks to you as well (same as all the other posts) for your kind words.

I agree with you regarding the fact that I shouldn't be paying for shipping or eBay fees, given that the item was blatantly misrepresented (fraud, anyone?).
Why did I agree to this? Well, basically I thought I might as well take my losses and settle for a quick resolution instead of doing it the right way.
Do I recommend anyone here act in the same way? Not really.

That's not to say that if this doesn't get resolved quickly and to my satisfaction, and if I need to start legal action, I won't require the full ammount that I paid this individual for his "virtually perfect" and "like new" T23.

I will let you know how everything turns out, absolutely!
As a matter of fact, I might post the textual description of the auction along with all the emails exchanged in the transaction so far later, just so you guys see the evolution in the seller's attitude from "My laptop looks and operates like new. No wear or defects are present" to "Like new and virtually perfect are relative terms. You paid for a used Toyota and want a new Mercedes"

Regards,

Ruben

[Thinker]

your ebay horror story is, well, a horror..

you need to contact ebay and the local PD to the seller..

you need to get his contact info and make sure it is valid..

you need to complain to paypal..

you DO have some limited power to takt this guys feedback rating down a notch or two..

you need to do it NOW as he might just take the money and rin..

Mr. Morrow,

First of all, I am compelled to thank you sincerely for having such a wonderful forum for and by Thinkpad lovers. I am fortunate to have found such a generous and valuable resource. Thank you and all the posters.

I heed your advice, and if the matter isn't resolved within the next few days, I will do all this and much more (However, I am pondering whether I should file any claims with PayPal or contact Law Enforcement if I decide to sue in small claims court.)

As far as the eBay feedback goes, I will most likely end up doing just that (even at the expense of having this person retaliate by posting negative feedback on my profile). By the way, this is another eBay flaw...

also, who is this seller..
bad publicity is one of your biggest weapons to recover your money..

also, by being a registered user here, you have a limited ability to ask other thinkpad members to give the goods a personal inspection..

Again, if the matter isn't resolved promptly, I will share this seller's identity with everyone here. The fact that this seller doesn't deal with Thinkpads doesn't make it necessarily of public interest. However, it will prevent anyone here from buying the same laptop should the seller repost it.

Regarding your advice and suggestion to have somebody in the forum inspect the item, I would be very grateful if that were possible!
I am located in San Ramon, in the East Bay (San Francisco Bay Area).
If anyone is willing to take a look at the item, I will invite you to have some coffee at a Starbucks (if you don't like Starbucks, I am open to negotiate

i don't often sell on ebay due to the rampant buyer fraud and the competition from sellers like you encountered..
selling junk and depressing the market for honest sellers..

next time you need a used thinkpad, post a want to buy ad in the for sale section..
and if you want a NEW thinkpad, ask me..

goood luck getting your $$ back..

You are doing the right thing, and I commend you. Incidentally, I will most likely buy a new T42 (Or T43, depending on user feedback) in the coming year, and I will give you a call Sir!

just FWIW, i recently bid on a software/hardware system for diagnosing my mercedes computers.. all of them.. a slick system..
and was prepared to buy but i was a bis suspicious..
and demanded a photo of the original CD and the s/n..
at that point the seller said it was a hacked bootleg copy..

all this points up to the problems with ebay..
do your homework and be careful..

RR said it best: "Trust, but verify"

Thanks again Bill. eBay is a dangerous place to trod, you are right.
Even if you do your homework, a transaction takes 2 people, and as much as I hate to admit it, once you go this route you are susceptible to be sorely disappointed (or worse).

Take care,

Ruben

[Bob Collins]

Horrible to hear and very sad for you.

I am throwing this idea out in case things go bad and you want to post negative feedback. Ebay's feedback is limited to 80 characters, so make sure your negative feedback is a web address to the full story with all the emails telephone calls noted etc. This is the best way to get a FULL STORY negative feedback. I had seen it ina couple of auctions in the past and figured it was a very good idea if you get no satisfcation through all other means.

Hopefully this cat will crumble and do the right thing.

Good luck!

[Thinker]

Horrible to hear and very sad for you.

I am throwing this idea out in case things go bad and you want to post negative feedback. Ebay's feedback is limited to 80 characters, so make sure your negative feedback is a web address to the full story with all the emails telephone calls noted etc. This is the best way to get a FULL STORY negative feedback. I had seen it ina couple of auctions in the past and figured it was a very good idea if you get no satisfcation through all other means.

Hopefully this cat will crumble and do the right thing.

Good luck!

Bob,

Thanks!

That's very good advice. I had already thought of putting an URL address in the feedback field, but I hadn't checked to see if it was against eBay's policies. In any case, that's what I will do if things don't work out.

I am sending the laptop back to the seller within the next few days.
He is supposed to inspect it to make sure it is in the same condition he sent it, and then he is sending me a money order. I requested that he send the money order via Certified Mail with signature required (I don't want any unpleasant surprises, as I had my quota for a while).

Take care,

Ruben

[BillMorrow]

beware the seller says that you did not return the same thinkpad to him that he sent to you..!

i suggest doing it ALL, especially complaining to ebay and paypal..

they DO have some sort of buyer protection..

[Deb Suran]

I've been ripped off on eBay more times than I'd care to recount. The worst was getting a ThinkPad from a major vendor, Hard Drive Outlet, that was DOA. I sent it back, they returned it saying they'd checked it out and it worked perfectly. But I could see by the packaging I'd stapled together so things didn't escape that they hadn't even opened it.

My current policy:
1) Check the seller's feedback. They should have a rating of 99% or higher, and should have a lot of good feedback as a seller. If I see more than one account of "I had problems and this seller never responded to my e-mails," I don't bother wih them.

2) I send the seller a question by e-mail. If they don't respond, I don't bid, because if they can't be bothered to get back to me *before* they have my money....

3) I only bid when I can pay directly with my Visa card if the item will cost more than $50. No PayPal. Visa has a 100% protection policy. When Hard Drive Outlet, in a phone call that could have come straight out of a Monty Python sketch, tried to convince me that a ThinkPad without even a flashing cursor on the screen was in proper working order, I shouted bad words at the customer rep, then called Visa customer support. 45 days later I had my money back.

While this cuts waaaay down on the number of auctions I can participate in, it has also cut waaaay down on DOA and misrepresented ThinkPads and parts.

[Thinker]

beware the seller says that you did not return the same thinkpad to him that he sent to you..!

i suggest doing it ALL, especially complaining to ebay and paypal..

they DO have some sort of buyer protection..

Bill,

Yes, I am very leary about the way this seller will behave in the future. Who knows what he will try next...

I am filing a complaint with eBay (report suspicious activity), and PayPal will be the next place I'll call (along with Law Enforcement in his and my area) if he doesn't follow through in his promise to refund the money.

Thanks,

Ruben

[Thinker]

I've been ripped off on eBay more times than I'd care to recount. The worst was getting a ThinkPad from a major vendor, Hard Drive Outlet, that was DOA. I sent it back, they returned it saying they'd checked it out and it worked perfectly. But I could see by the packaging I'd stapled together so things didn't escape that they hadn't even opened it.

Hello Deb,

Wow, that's incredible. They didn't even try to open the package so that it LOOKED LIKE they had inspected the laptop?

In retrospect I should never bid on this T23. Some things should have raised red flags despite the seller's 100% positive feedback rating. What are you going to do...Live and learn.

Yes, I always try to use my credit card, that's about the best policy. Bottom line, it only takes one time to be wrong and you're screwed (pardon the language).

Ruben

[BillMorrow]

all this negative ebay talk aside..
there are many honest sellers on ebay..
doing a good job and being honest..

it is incumbent on the buyer to check the seller out..

just use common sense..
new seller? beware!
low feedback?, beware!
lots of feedback to baseball cards, all unter $1 now selling a new thinkpad?, beware!
just apply points and when the positives are less than the negatives, be careful..

[benplaut]

well, i atleast had a good experience on ebay... bought a like-new (in the real sense of the term ) that actually came with morethan what was mentioned in the description (came with office 2003 PRO installed, but not mentioned)

halon1211_uc is a good guy, despite his low feedback (14, but no nuetrals or negatives)

my sympathies, Thinker... i hope everything works out OK

[silo]

I did a search on ebay and can't find any recently completed T23 sales that includes the words "like new" and is at or near the figure quoted here. Most are in the $550-$580 range. THis is back through Dec 20th or so. Could you provide us with additional details that would allow us to find the scoundrel? Also, could you post photos of the messy T23 online somewhere so that we all can see?

THe reason I worry is that I just bought (this morning) a T23 on eBay, and it, too, said "like new."

Yikes! I now live in fear until it arrives.

[Thinker]

all this negative ebay talk aside..
there are many honest sellers on ebay..
doing a good job and being honest..

it is incumbent on the buyer to check the seller out..

just use common sense..
new seller? beware!
low feedback?, beware!
lots of feedback to baseball cards, all unter $1 now selling a new thinkpad?, beware!
just apply points and when the positives are less than the negatives, be careful..

Bill,

You are absolutely right. I have bought and sold stuff in eBay for a few years, and so far the experience had been excellent. As a matter of fact, I am positive that the number of honest sellers in eBay far surpass that of [PoliticallyCorrectJargon] less honest sellers [/PoliticallyCorrectJargon].

I have been burnt by this experience. In retrospect I can see where I wasn't as careful as I should have been. I hope that nobody else around here has to go through the same crap as I did.

As an update, I ordered a Certified Used T23 from IBM which should get here next week. 7 days no questions asked return policy. I feel much better now...

Thanks for being the voice of reason and pointing out the fact that eBay is not all bad. I haven't been very impartial the past few days for obvious reasons.

Regardless, I think eBay should take a hard look at their policies and require sellers to abide by much more stringent guidelines than those now in place. And anybody who has an ongoing complaint for items totalling more than a given amount (calculated as a ratio of that person's total trading activity within the last 14 days for example) should have their account temporarily suspended.
I'll step off my soapbox now.

Ruben

[Thinker]

well, i atleast had a good experience on ebay... bought a like-new (in the real sense of the term ) that actually came with morethan what was mentioned in the description (came with office 2003 PRO installed, but not mentioned)

halon1211_uc is a good guy, despite his low feedback (14, but no nuetrals or negatives)

my sympathies, Thinker... i hope everything works out OK

bplaut,

Well, congratulations to you! I am honestly happy to hear that some people around here are getting what they paid for.

Thanks for your support, I sure hope things work out fine also. I'll let everybody know.

[Thinker]

I did a search on ebay and can't find any recently completed T23 sales that includes the words "like new" and is at or near the figure quoted here. Most are in the $550-$580 range. THis is back through Dec 20th or so. Could you provide us with additional details that would allow us to find the scoundrel? Also, could you post photos of the messy T23 online somewhere so that we all can see?

THe reason I worry is that I just bought (this morning) a T23 on eBay, and it, too, said "like new."

Yikes! I now live in fear until it arrives.

silo,

Actually, the description didn't say "like new", but something very similar. The seller sent me an email describing the item as "looks and operates like new" blah blah blah bunch of BS "with no wear or defects" blah blah more bolonie "I am confident you will be satisfied with my laptop".
I will post all our email exchanges if things don't get solved (I am mailing the laptop back to Mr. Honest Seller today or on Friday).

As for pictures, I will post some pictures in my personal website and make the links to them public in this forum later today or tomorrow..

As for your "like new" T23, I honestly hope it is true to the description.
I wouldn't really worry, since you probably had better sense than me in picking your auction. Plus, there is no utility in worrying after you have paid for your item. When the T23 gets there let us know that it is OK!

Ruben