new T in 2009?

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Kylan · #31 Post by **Kylan** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:09 pm

2) Just because I like them both, (call me a laptop addict) ... ...and they are quite different in many ways, such as operating systems. That said, ThinkPads are always my main machines and macs are for a bit of fun.

I'd love to hear you elaborate more on their differences, and especially anything you might say about why you didn't just choose to run Windows on the MacBook Pro. Is there something about the ThinkPad experience that's superior?

ssd_thinkpad · #32 Post by **ssd_thinkpad** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:23 pm

This points are important for me and are mostly not covered from apple

- non-glossy display
- trackpoint
- for business purposes the classic lenovo design is more conservative
- docking solutions
- repair guides / you can get parts of your notebook from lenovo to repair it

Some lenovo notebooks are comparatively cheap: t500 is cheaper than a 15 inch macbook pro.

#33 Post by **archer6** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:00 pm

Kylan wrote:I'd love to hear you elaborate more on their differences, and especially anything you might say about why you didn't just choose to run Windows on the MacBook Pro.
Is there something about the ThinkPad experience that's superior?

Kudos for the Great Questions ! First let me say that I make every effort to report factually and without bias regarding my personal opinions. That said, if I do make a comment that is personal opinion I will preface it accordingly. Let it be said that I appreciation and respect for both of these brands. My personal choice if I could have just one laptop only would be a ThinkPad hands down. And that says a lot because I really like Apple laptops as well. But in the final analysis, I'm an engineer by formal education and work on laptop all day long doing design, scientific and other types of resource demanding work. Thus a ThinkPad is far superior. For lesser work, either are quite good. I do run Windows on the MBP both via Bootcamp and also VMware. Here are my thoughts about each. These are based on the most current models, nearly identical in all specs. The new unibody MacBook Pro and the Workstation Class ThinkPad W500 which is what I am using to post here today.

ThinkPad
Excellent matte display, far superior in my opinion to the very glossy, reflective all glass MBP display.
Ultrabay, a ThinkPad advantage. Allows one the option of adding a second hard drive, ultrabay battery, optical drive and others.
Terrific durability, and I'm easy on laptops but nonetheless the sturdiness is priceless in the event that it is dropped.
User serviceable is a hallmark of the ThinkPad lineup with an extremely robust web site filled with far more resources that Apple.
Very upgradeable, there are great guides in pdf format, as well as web pages and movies that show one how to remove and replace the various components. Reliability and the best human interfaces ie: keyboard, trackpoint, touchpad, display, etc are all the best. Are ThinkPads perfect? No, there is no brand that is. And yet I find the ThinkPad the best (as least for the varied tasks I do) and remains my first choice.

MacBook Pro
A great machine with the best build quality to date from Apple. I've had every one of their notebook laptops since the PowerBook 140 which was the first of the notebook category. Many times they have sacrificed durability for design, quirky plastic cases being the norm for a number of years until they went aluminum. Stylish yet not that well built (internally) the exterior design, the super hype delivered by Apple are all factors which have created a group of Mac Loyalists (I'm not one) that often choose to be blind to the reality that they are very good but not the world changing devices that Jobs and company promotes them to be. Specifically until this latest unibody design they were extremely hard to upgrade. Even now it's only the hard drive and ram that is easier to gain access to. The lack of a good input device is an issue, as I find the trackpoint very accurate and ergonomically efficient. Yet cast that aside, and the lack of a second mouse button on all prior PowerBook & MacBook / Pro models I feel is quite an oversight. Easily remedied by using a mouse, it's still something that I do not like as I do not like to use a mouse. The new larger mullti-touch trackpad is an improvement, and yet it's not as fast as the input system implemented by Lenovo. The current MacBook Pro is a picture of style over substance, as the "shiny" look is in vogue amonst the public and unfortunately Apple has dropped the matte display and taken "Glossy" to new heights. If not for this, the MacBook Pro would be a very serious contender to Lenovo in the professional sector. Price point is another huge issue as the premium pays for a Mac, is something that frankly I think is ridiculous. In terms of actual performance the MBP is a contender, yet clearly second place to a similarly configured W500 as mine. While I have not benchmarked either, I have done just enough work with them over the last two days to experience the difference and it's enough to tip the scales in favor of the ThinkPad.

Cheers...

Kylan · #34 Post by **Kylan** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:30 am

Ultrabay, a ThinkPad advantage. Allows one the option of adding a second hard drive, ultrabay battery, optical drive and others.

Wow, what a deal for me that you can speak w/ authority on the difference in Apples and the oranges!

Two more questions:

1. Does the T400 have the ultrabay? I don't recall seeing it in the configuration. I've loved it on my T40p because I've been able to work w/ extra laptop hard drives (including that of my wife's T40p).

2. Why did you go w/ the W500 over the T400 or T500? (Perhaps the ultrabay issue would be part of it if they aren't on the T400/500). In configuring one of each it seemed like the main differences were:

*W500 has twice the VRAM
*W500 costs quite a bit more and is heavier

Thanks so much (again)!

Marin85 · #35 Post by **Marin85** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:18 pm

(1) Yes, T400 has an ultrabay. You can pull out the CD/DVD and put a second HD or a battery in.

#36 Post by **archer6** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:27 pm

Kylan wrote:<snip> Why did you go w/ the W500 over the T400 or T500? In configuring one of each it seemed like the main differences were: *W500 has twice the VRAM *W500 costs quite a bit more and is heavier <snip>

There are several reasons for my choice, as I require a true workstation class computer for my work, with a proper graphics system for what I do. When comparing, the W500 has the following features, which the T500 lacks:

1) Discrete Open GL ATI Fire GL M86-GL 512MB Video system for creation of high quality graphic 3G images and objects.

2) Digital Monitor support via Display Port (supports single-link DVI-D via cable 45J7915);Maximum external resolution: 2048x1536@75Hz

3) ISV Certified for use with the software applications I use: Maya, Catia Solid Works, AutoCAD, Avid SoftImage, Landmark GeoProbe and as well as others.

4) Part of the Global Models Plus program, International warranty, as I also work in London, Germany and Italy.

5) W500 & T500 both weight 6.2 lbs w/6-cell

6) The Price of the W500 was just $40 more than the T500

I found stackable coupons which allowed an additional $545 off the configured price. A purchase price that is the lowest I've ever paid...for a fully loaded ThinkPad workstation, what a nice surprise. Bottom line I paid less than half of what I paid for the MacBook Pro, and the W500 runs circles around it.

ThinkPads.... Simply Brilliant!

Cheers...

Kylan · #37 Post by **Kylan** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:04 pm

2) Digital Monitor support via Display Port (supports single-link DVI-D via cable 45J7915);Maximum external resolution: 2048x1536@75Hz

4) Part of the Global Models Plus program, International warranty, as I also work in London, Germany and Italy.

Very interesting, exactly the same weight and the W500 is stronger. Thought provoking indeed.

A couple more Qs if I may, please:

Regarding #2, I often end up leading meetings for small groups in a variety of situations. Periodically I've used a cable to connect to a TV which is often fine for showing text or a PowerPoint slide, but doesn't seem to allow me to show videos on the TV screen (though they play fine on the T40p's screen. Does the "maximum external resolution" statistic you quoted mean that my odds would be better w/ a W500 than they would w/ a T400?

Regarding #4 I wasn't aware of such a program. Since I live abroad that would be wonderful for me. Google led me to http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... d=look-iws but the page depends upon me providing the "type" (instead of a model #). Googling a bit more I found that the T500 is (or can be?) type 2081 and then saw the list of corresponding countries. My questions then are the following:

A) Does each model # only have one type #? In other words are all W500s (regardless of configuration) the same type # (so that I can know before I purchase which countries will be able to provide corresponding service?

B) Is there a way to know what a certain model configuration's type will be (perhaps a master list somewhere)?

C) Googling doesn't quickly lead me to a dream list that tells which models could get IWS in specific countries. Do you happen to know if such a list would exist? (Note: That won't be as important if question A and/or B are answered.)

I'm just amazed how much you've kindly helped me learn. THANK YOU.

#38 Post by **archer6** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:12 pm

Kylan wrote:<snip> Regarding #4 I wasn't aware of such a program. Since I live abroad that would be wonderful for me.
I'm just amazed how much you've kindly helped me learn. THANK YOU. <snip>

2) Sorry I have no answer for this Q.

4) Now that you've brought this question up (regarding the ThinkPad model / type system) it reminds me that this is another very significant advantage over Apple and the MacBook Pro for example. The reason is that their are only two configurations of MBP offered, and the level of customization one can do is severely limited. With a ThinkPad there are hundreds of configurations offered. Then there is the "CTO" model which is "Configured To Order" where one has a large list of components to choose from. The system works as follows. First we begin with the "Series Designations" IE: SL, R, T, X, X-tablet and W. as seen here:
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/cont ... B36EC665A7

Next we have the "type" which is a four digit number listed on the bottom of the computer followed by a three digit "model". For example my W500 is a: 4058-CTO with 4058 being the "type" and "CTO" being the model, "configured to order". Lenovo identifies exactly what my laptops configuration is via the serial number. My T60 for example is a 2007-73U. Type 2007, model 73U. A model that I chose from a list of available production models, not custom configured as I had done with my W500. Here is a link to a master reference book which used to be called "tabook" and most recently is called Personal Systems Reference (PSREF) This "book" lists every currrently available ThinkPad in each series. You will learn a lot by reading this and the system of labeling their laptops will become apparent. Here is the link:
http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/tabook.pdf

I am very happy to hear that I have been of assistance to you in a meaningful manner as that is my goal. If not for this great forum, I would not have the knowledge I do about the ThinkPad lineup.

Cheers...

Kylan · #39 Post by **Kylan** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:35 pm

You will learn a lot by reading this and the system of labeling their laptops will become apparent. Here is the link:
http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/tabook.pdf

Eureka! That pdf is ThinkPad gold! Now I just wish that lenovo.com had a place I could plug in a code (for example: 2752-3KU) and see what the corresponding price is.

I'm just dreaming, right?

For some reason I can't figure out how to even configure some stuff from their website... for example that model (2752-3KU). I don't find/see anything about quad cores in the W700 section.

Thanks so much!

Kylan · #40 Post by **Kylan** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:38 pm

1) Turbo Memory is something that I would avoid. In it's infancy it's performance gains in Vista are very marginal. Does not work for XP Pro.

Have you (or anyone) heard/read anything about Turbo Memory regarding Windows 7 (which I assume I'll end up w/ as soon as it's available?

Marin85 · #41 Post by **Marin85** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:39 pm

Also, keep in mind that there are model-types that are not mentioned in the Tabook.

I would suggest you to forget about Intel TurboCache

You would be better off putting your money in more RAM or SSD than TurboCache. For reference maxed out TurboCache costs about 100$, good SSDs cost nowadays less than 200$. What is more SSDs will be getting cheaper and cheaper, the price drop is moving in amazing temps

Regarding the Quad-core, I think you should look more carefully in the Tabook

In the W700 section there is W700 (Quad-core extreme), the cpu is QX9300.

Cheers,

Marin

EDIT:typo...

#42 Post by **archer6** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:59 pm

Just my opinion based on experience, but I would forget about Turbo Memory... period. Load up on regular ram memory that's the key. As Marin mentioned, there are other models from time to time that can be procured by calling Lenovo Sales @ 1.866.968.4465 and asking what they may have. Due to the massive volume of ThinkPads they build to special order for corporate accounts an all, you never know what you might find. It changes extremely rapidly so if indeed they have something on hand or about to arrive that you are interested in be prepared to buy it on the spot. Take if from a hard core ThinkPad lover, if you pass it will be sold within minutes in most cases. The sales volume is staggering. And no, prices change so frequently that there is no price book for us to reference.

Kylan · #43 Post by **Kylan** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:31 pm

Just learned that it's going to be 4+ weeks to ship my laptop... That's a problem because I live abroad and am not sure who might be coming in that time frame (big hassle to ship it directly here). So, I guess I've got time for another Q or two if you do, too.

1) If I go w/ a conventional hard drive now would there be any problem later in upgrading to a solid state drive (for example if capacity goes up and price goes down over the next year or two)?

2) If I go for a T400 does the UltraBay have enough room for another hard drive (like my T40p does)?

Note: I called the Lenovo phone number given above but they didn't have anything that was quite what I was hoping for.

Thanks!

ssd_thinkpad · #44 Post by **ssd_thinkpad** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:34 pm

1: no problem at all
2: there are only sata hdds supported in the hdd-ultrabay for t400

#45 Post by **archer6** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:58 pm

Kylan wrote:<snip> Just learned that it's going to be 4+ weeks to ship my laptop...<snip>

Personally when I see "4 + weeks" on the site, I get very discouraged. Ideally it would be nice if they could ship sooner. While I cannot attest to the accuracy I did speak with Lenovo yesterday about this timeline and they said that their new practice is to quote longer times than needed, so as to be able to beat that estimate. I was told that it's currently taking about 2 weeks. In my case the new W500 I just received last week beat the estimated time by a full week.

Finally, I will give a friendly reminder not to let this drive you to purchase a MacBook, or MacBook Pro as now that I've used mine a bit more I am having buyers remorse. The display is simply mirror like and nearly useless, thus I've listed it on ebay and cannot wait to dispose of it. Proof positive that there is nothing like a ThinkPad... simply brilliant!

Cheers...

Kylan · #46 Post by **Kylan** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:01 pm

About the only difference I'm seeing between the T400 and T500 (aside from size and weight) is that the T500 has a "DisplayPort and optional DVIvi-D monitor cable." Am I missing anything else?

#47 Post by **archer6** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:22 pm

That's about it. I believe that you've got it down pretty good by now. They are both fantastic machines, and I'm sure you will enjoy which ever one you choose.

Which way are you leaning? T400 or T500?

Cheers...

Marin85 · #48 Post by **Marin85** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:43 pm

Kylan wrote:About the only difference I'm seeing between the T400 and T500 (aside from size and weight) is that the T500 has a "DisplayPort and optional DVIvi-D monitor cable." Am I missing anything else?

You forget the gpu. T500 has ATI Mobility Radeon HD3650, T400 uses ATI Mobility Radeon HD3470. The fist one is much more powerful. Both are switchable.

Kylan · #49 Post by **Kylan** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:56 am

You forget the gpu. T500 has ATI Mobility Radeon HD3650, T400 uses ATI Mobility Radeon HD3470. The fist one is much more powerful. Both are switchable.

Trying to get a better handle on the difference I Googled both. These links...

http://www.notebookcheck.net/ATI-Mobili ... 839.0.html
http://www.notebookcheck.net/ATI-Mobili ... 594.0.html

...describe each, but to be honest it's pretty abstract for me and I don't have much of a feel for what the differences would be like. Please share a subjective opinion w/ me about how big the difference might feel... maybe something like, "You'd probably never notice," or "Oh yeah, the 3650 is a ton..."

Thank you sincerely!

ssd_thinkpad · #50 Post by **ssd_thinkpad** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:06 am

Kylan wrote:...describe each, but to be honest it's pretty abstract for me and I don't have much of a feel for what the differences would be like.

The better gpu produces around triple of watt and should be triple as hot as the slower gpu.

#51 Post by **archer6** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:15 am

ssd_thinkpad wrote: The better gpu produces around triple of watt and should be triple as hot as the slower gpu.

I concur. However that said, the exemplary cooling system implemented in this model neutralizes the real world experience with either model. Thus once again it comes down to what you are going to use the computer for and your personal preferences.
.
Cheers...
Posted via BlackBerry

Kylan · #52 Post by **Kylan** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:57 am

Thus once again it comes down to what you are going to use the computer for and your personal preferences.

I do just a little bit of everything but some things more than others. In what types of applications would I see the biggest benefit?

BTW, w/o thinking about the DVI issue I recently bought an external monitor http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... -_-text-_- to use w/ my laptop. Does my monitor choice in a way minimize the benefit of the T500?

Thanks for letting me audit classes here in ThinkPad University!

Marin85 · #53 Post by **Marin85** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:53 am

if I remember correctly, you mentioned somewhere in this thread that you don´t game. That said, I don´t think the gpu difference would matter to you (except for heat as already pointed out).

Kylan · #54 Post by **Kylan** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:38 pm

if I remember correctly, you mentioned somewhere in this thread that you don´t game. That said, I don´t think the gpu difference would matter to you (except for heat as already pointed out).

Right, almost no gaming. Looks like the T400 is solidifying as a candidate. The W500 is probably the closest competitor due to the increase in VRAM and fairly moderate weight difference.

ssd_thinkpad · #55 Post by **ssd_thinkpad** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:58 pm

Good choice!

Marin85 · #56 Post by **Marin85** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:12 pm

I think from W500 and T500 the first one is a better option

For it also comes with switchable graphics, i.e. if one doesn´t like the heat and fan noise, one can always turn on the integrated graphics, it has more VRAM and it may cost less... Hardware-wise (apart from the VRAM) both graphics cards use the same gpu, so the only difference in heat is made by the extra 256 MB of VRAM. That shouldn´t be so much of a problem. Besides W500 also comes with the WSXGA+ screen.

Kylan · #57 Post by **Kylan** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:54 pm

I think from W500 and T500 the first one is a better option For it also comes with switchable graphics...

And the primary benefit of "switchable graphics" is improved battery life? In other words if I'm a big unplugged user?

Besides W500 also comes with the WSXGA+ screen.

How would that compare w/ the best LED screen I could get on a T400?

Again, thanks for ThinkPad University, here!

Marin85 · #58 Post by **Marin85** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:33 pm

T400, T500, W500 come with switchable graphics. Switchable graphics refers to the presence of two gpus, one for performance (like the ATI cards) and one for long battery life/less fan noise/less heat (like the integrated Intel HD4500). Vista allows to switch between them on the fly. So, apart from costs it makes sense to pick the one with the best gpu for performance (for if and whenever one wants to have quiet/cool laptop and needs long battery life, one can always switch to the integrated graphics).

Regarding the screen, check out LED-backlit vs. WSXGA+ resolution. (Note it´s not possible to directly compare LED-backlit with higher resolution because this would be like apples and oranges, but since they are excluding each other in the configuration of Lenovo ThinkPads, one could compare their absolute advantages and disadvantages and "compute" the utility of each according to one´s personal preferences.)

TheRedFox · #59 Post by **TheRedFox** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:53 pm

the T400 looks really good battery wise. the 9 cell can get something like 8 hours. I'd love to have 8 hours of batt! it also seems to have pretty good specs.

ssd_thinkpad · #60 Post by **ssd_thinkpad** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:20 am

TheRedFox wrote:the T400 looks really good battery wise. the 9 cell can get something like 8 hours. I'd love to have 8 hours of batt! it also seems to have pretty good specs.

You can also add a 3 cell bay battery to the 9 cell battery. Consider, that only a configuration of maximum 7 cells (4 cell standard battery and 3 cell bay battery) has no outstanding battery.

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