wowow T400's price raised

[ThinkPad R]

What *** *** is Lenovo thinking with their ThinkPads?????? Their price was ($859 for one with discrete graphics card) already too high compared to the Dell's Latitude's.... & they raised the price by $50.

[ThinkPad R]

Never mind.... T500 has better graphics card!

Anyhow, I think the reason why T400's price was raised was 'cause so many people kept buying it & not T500.

[dr_st]

It's almost amazing that we've come to the times when people see $859 for a Thinkpad with discrete graphics as too high.

I don't know whether to or to

[ThinkPad R]

lol..... but isn't that the truth?

Compare Dell's Vostro on 46% sale (ending today) at a price of 1500 or more for example;

Windows Vista 64 bit Ultimate
2.4GHz Core Duo P8600 1066MHz
4GB 800MHz DDR2 SDRAM
320GB HDD 7200 RPM
Bluetooth 2.0
Intel Wifi Link 5100
Webcam
15.6 Led display
9 cell battery (>8 hrs)
256MB nVidia GeForce 9300 M (class 3) discrete graphics card
DVD RW +/-
2 yr warranty

Final price is 793**. Remember that Vostro is not like an Inspiron or a Studio, and it's a level above the business-oriented Latitudes; it essentially occupies the same niche as the ThinkPad T series.

It beats the crap out of a T500 (at 15% off with USPSEARCH ecoupon) at the same price:

Windows Vista Home Basic 32bit
2.4GHz Core Duo P8600 (at 25W... not sure if Dell's is @ 25W)
2GB 1066 DDR3 RAM
160GB 5200 RPM HDD
15.6" LED
Intel Wifi Link 5100
CD-RW/DVD
Intel Wifi Link 5100
6 cell battery (~I suppose 5 hrs with LED LCD; the lowest average is @ 4.3 hrs, according to Lenovo)
ATI Mobility Radeon 3650 with 256MB (class 2; better than Dell's class 3 graphics card)
1 yr warranty

Price is $832.

So.... I'm not sure what you can argue... You really can't get away with something like "so HP offers more" or "ThinkPad is better designed" or "ThinkPad lasts longer (b/c it rlly doesn't)."

[ajkula66]

I would honestly like to see Lenovo raise their prices for T/W series and offer better quality LCDs for the price difference...

Cheap computers have never impressed me. The problem is that there's a mindset somewhere within Lenovo that ThinkPads should be cheap...completely wrong attitude IMHO.

Quality and workmanship cost. Period.

Unfortunately, we have less and less of a choice when looking for a quality products in all areas...

[ThinkPad R]

Again, what you just said is not really an argument.

The ThinkPad in the past has been regarded highly by virtue of its superior features and design. The notebooks featuring the fastest processors, the best keyboard, the brightest displays with the highest resolutions that are most comfortable for the eyes, and great battery life used to be ThinkPads. They were the first to feature DVD readers, embedded security subsystem, HDD active protection system, magnesium composite plastic, and the UltraNav.

ThinkPads used to be expensive not because they were supposed to be but because they actually had more stuffs & offered the best of what was available & were the best you could get in the market.

All this was true when the notebook was a high-tech product that was very difficult to engineer. However eventually competitors began to offer the same features for less, but IBM sold the ThinkPads at several hundred $$$ (a laptop in general at this time would cost $2000~3000) more even though the components in the ThinkPads certainly did not cost several hundred $$$ more to manufacture.

Even at that point (late 1990s), I think such pricing was acceptable. In the end, ThinkPads were better engineered & the "HP cheap+more stuff+worse design+worse durability vs ThinkPad expensive+less+better design+better durability" argument would apply.

But now it's 2009 & the landscape of the PC industry has changed entirely. Certain manufacturers like Dell & Toshiba have managed to achieve considerable durability & design. Other brands like SONY are as expensive as the ThinkPads, but they make up for their extra $$$ in terms of build material (i.e. very nice plastic & composite metal surfaces, etc.) & design (i.e. 10" ultraportables with dvd burners or X505, the world's thinnest laptop). Most certainly ThinkPad's magnesium composite plastic does not cost as much to manufacture nor are they as high tech as SONY's plastic materials, but still they add on the extra $$$ for the customers to pay.... for nothing. If Lenovo was really business-oriented, they should not try to position the ThinkPad as a luxury brand on par with SONY b/c in truth businesses will be hurting themselves by going after the "ultimate business tools." Lenovo forces businesses & consumers that want to afford ThinkPads to accept a bunch of outdated features like CD-RW/DVD (instead of DVD burner), CCFL (instead of LED backlight..... greatly reduces battery life & lasts maybe 10 years), the low-end wireless cards, & smaller memory & hard drive capacity. ThinkPads therefore get outdated more quickly than their counterparts. I rather think that ThinkPads should be affordable products with a reputation of quality & consistency & reliability (so OK you like the business-like, black & simple design of the ThinkPad... so do I, but is that something that costs more to make???? Is that worth the $500 difference? Nope.)

Anyhow, the Dell Vostro has a similar build quality & probably has a nearly a good keyboard (but even if it's not it doesn't make up for $500 difference) & has superior battery life (which is very important to me) & is thinner (but has same starting weight as T500).

If the argument went, "yea ThinkPad has worse audio & dimmer screen & is just slightly slower, but it has much better battery life & offers better wireless & is similarly priced & weighs less," this debate would have somewhere to go.

But it's no longer "oh I don't like ThinkPads because they have terrible audio" or "but I don't mind the audio because I use a headphone."

ThinkPads are pretty much worse in all aspects to their counterparts from Dell & Toshiba like the Vostro & there's no tradeoff to discuss.

[TTY]

Dell offers a review of a Vostro notebook which is written by a customer on their website. The review says:

Keyboard: somewhat rickety, flexes easily
DVD drive: somewhat loud
Fan: depending on use, turns on relatively often and is clearly audible

From a quick glance at Dell's website, they don't seem to offer much in the way of docking options. Seems as if the Vostro doesn't even have a docking connector. No docking station with digital output (DisplayPort or DVI), and VGA is supported only up to SXGA on docking stations.

[ajkula66]

I guess I haven't expressed my feelings properly...

No argument on my part...everything that you've said, ThinkPadR, makes sense in the respect of Dell vs. Lenovo

My point being, none of them is truly a high-end machine, not in my book.

W500/700 would qualify if they had LCDs to match the rest of their features, but they don't.

Neither does any Dell or HP or Apple.

The closest one can come to build quality of a proper business laptop is Panasonic, although they have their weak points as well, but are quality-built machines from A to Z....

The only laptop I would buy if I were shopping for a new machine today....

Nothing wrong with a quality product being expensive...B&O, Gibson, BMW...

Something very wrong with the world that doesn't even offer you the option of paying for quality, though...

[dr_st]

Remember that Vostro is not like an Inspiron or a Studio, and it's a level above the business-oriented Latitudes; it essentially occupies the same niche as the ThinkPad T series.

HELL no! The Vostro is nowhere close to the niche of the T-series or the Latitudes. The Vostro's competitor is the SL series, which is much cheaper, and compared to them, the Vostro doesn't have a trackpoint, no digital video output, and the maximum screen resolution is only WXGA+ (whereas SL500 has WSXGA+).

If Lenovo was really business-oriented, they should not try to position the ThinkPad as a luxury brand on par with SONY b/c in truth businesses will be hurting themselves by going after the "ultimate business tools."

There is a difference between "luxury brand" and "business brand". Luxury means something shiny and attractive, business means something for work. Thinkpads always were and continue to be business oriented. Most of the Sonys aren't (the ones that are, are quite expensive, and on average don't exhibit less problems than the average Thinkpad).

Lenovo forces businesses & consumers that want to afford ThinkPads to accept a bunch of outdated features like CD-RW/DVD (instead of DVD burner), CCFL (instead of LED backlight..... greatly reduces battery life & lasts maybe 10 years), the low-end wireless cards, & smaller memory & hard drive capacity. ThinkPads therefore get outdated more quickly than their counterparts.

Lenovo doesn't force anyone to accept anything. All high-end options are available. It's the people that want to pay $800 for a Thinkpad instead of $2000 that force themselves to leave with the low-end configurations you mentioned. Once you take a similarly configured Thinkpad vs Latitude/Precision or HP Elitebook, you will find that prices are comparable as well. And comparison to consumer brands is not a fair one.

On a side note - this "great reduction of battery life" you mention on the CCFL is simply nonsense. The effect is marginal at best.

I rather think that ThinkPads should be affordable products with a reputation of quality & consistency & reliability (so OK you like the business-like, black & simple design of the ThinkPad... so do I, but is that something that costs more to make???? Is that worth the $500 difference? Nope.)

In other words, you would rather pay $800 and get a $2000 value. Ain't gonna happen, friend, the tradeoff has got to be somewhere. And again, I repeat, the tradeoff is no better or worse than with other manufacturers, at least when you compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges.

ThinkPads are pretty much worse in all aspects to their counterparts from Dell & Toshiba like the Vostro & there's no tradeoff to discuss.

You are very wrong in your claim, but maybe it will take you some time of playing with different laptops from different manufacturers to see that. Some people on this forum have (more than me), listening to their experience will not be a bad idea.

[bill bolton]

I would honestly like to see Lenovo raise their prices for T/W series and offer better quality LCDs for the price difference...

I wouldn't.

[bill bolton]

but are quality-built machines from A to Z....

No. They are difficult to maintain and roundly disliked by desktop support groups.

[ajkula66]

bill bolton wrote:

No. They are difficult to maintain and roundly disliked by desktop support groups.

Well, my department has about 350-400 of them, ranging from CF-72/73 to CF18/19 and CF28/29, and they're very well-loved by everyone. The fact of the matter is, they really do not need much-if any-maintenance. A couple of them that have decided to die were promptly replaced by Panasonic under warranty terms.

Old ones were difficult, and moody. Newer ones (from PM on) are a joy to work with, apart from the unfortunate fact that they don't have a trackpoint. However, I would consider the round touchpad found on newer ToughBooks/Let's Note models to be the best in business.

[archer6]

Remember that Vostro is not like an Inspiron or a Studio, and it's a level above the business-oriented Latitudes; it essentially occupies the same niche as the ThinkPad T series.

It may occupy the same niche in some peoples minds but that is the voice of one who has never owned and used a Vostro, I have, and they are not even in the same league as a ThinkPad. They miss by a mile.

Compare Dell's Vostro on 46% sale (ending today) at a price of 1500 or more for example; Final price is 793**. It beats the crap out of a T500 (at 15% off with USPSEARCH ecoupon) at the same price:$832.

No way, not even close, nice try.

So.... I'm not sure what you can argue... You really can't get away with something like "so HP offers more" or "ThinkPad is better designed" or "ThinkPad lasts longer (b/c it rlly doesn't)."

There is no arguing, for those who have first hand experience with ThinkPads _and_ the competition (I do) like Dell, Apple, Sony, Samsung, Toshiba, HP, Gateway, Acer, Asus, MSI, I've bought each of these examples in corresponding configurations to ThinkPads just for the fun of testing and comparison and they are nothing more than mediocre consumer machines on a good day.

I don't work for Lenovo, nor am I married to any brand. That said I use my ThinkPad everyday for mission critical work that must be done on a reliable workstation class machine. I've been relying on ThinkPads for years, without a single problem of any true significance. Nothing beats a ThinkPad. The moment there is another notebook computer that does, I will know about it immediately because I'm always watching and testing other manufacturers machines.

Cheers...

[ThinkPad R]

Hehe that got u guys excited. Well let's have some fun discussing this yall.

--------------------
First to TTY:

See this review: http://www.studentbuyingguide.com/2009/ ... 20-review/

1) Keyboard does not flex; in fact it is very sturdy. On the other hand, according to notebookreview.com, Lenovo re-designed the keyboard on the T500 to reduce weight by 25% but thereby allowing significant flexing in the keyboard.

2) I don't know about the DVD drive.... my ThinkPad R40's CD drive is loud when it runs so...

3) I don't need a docking station, especially for a 15.6" laptop & not an ultraportable, and according to that review you can get a USB-based port replicator, if you need more ports. That should in fact be a cheaper and smarter solution.

--------------------
To akjula66.... I'm not sure I understand this:

"Something very wrong with the world that doesn't even offer you the option of paying for quality, though..."

--------------------
To dr_st:

If it was supposed to be a budget laptop, etc., oh then I was told wrong.... by my little brother! lol

1) Still I don't think it's fair to compare the Vostro to the SL series. The Vostro has a way longer battery life (compare 7 hrs vs. 5 hrs) that is also superior to T500's (probably less than 7 hrs with 9 cell & LED display), and it's 1 inch thin, still thinner than T500 that is 1.3" thick.

2) I don't really care about the screen resolution, which in fact should not matter for a business-oriented laptop, but anyhow the Vostro also comes with WUXGA, which is essentially the same as WSXGA, I think.

3) No you don't get the point. If it is a business brand, make it affordable, not expensive like a luxury brand. Lenovo's trying to do both, and I'm saying they can't do that. Then tell me how it would be beneficial for a business to buy a ThinkPad rather than a Vostro or Latitude from Dell or Tecra from Toshiba. Also.... I don't think you can really say that a ThinkPad suffers less failure than a SONY.

4) Uhh... Did you not read my comparison of the Vostro 1520 (business laptop) to a T500? That's not a moral argument & don't make me the bad guy here. As you can see, Dell's Vostro 1520 was a way better deal than the T500, and saving money is always a good thing for any business. For the same configuration, the T500 would cost $1387.70 + tax; (at 15% discount) that's definitely $500 more expensive. This huge price difference makes me ask why, and that's a completely fair question.

5) Yea CCFL does reduce battery life considerably, by 30~60 minutes. See:

http://www.infoworld.com/t/platforms/ne ... y-life-556

6) And yes, if that's how you want to put it. If I can get $1387.70's worth of stuff for $793.00, I should, and I did yesterday. I think it makes more sense to flip the picture around... Lenovo is stupid to expect people to buy $793.00's worth of stuff for $1387.70.

--------------------
Anyhow, let me sum up the reasons why I chose to buy the Dell's Vostro 1520 over Lenovo's ThinkPad T500, even though for months I've been considering to buy a T400 or T500:

1) More stuffs (i.e. Windows Ultimate OS, DVD burner, more memory, more hard drive, bluetooth 2.0 (which by the way should be better than ThinkPad's integrated bluetooth), & webcam)
2) Lower price (by $40)
3) The simple, business look & sturdy build. Thinner at 1" (T500 is way to big... 1.3" ????)
4) 2 yrs of warranty vs 1 yr

The cons for the Vostro 1520 over T500 should include:

1) No UltraNav.
2) Keyboard is arranged like SL series' - the F1~F12 keys are not compartmentalized. It would also not "feel" as great as the ThinkPad keyboard, but I found out that the ThinkPad keyboard wears out rather quickly & loses that great touch & becomes rather wobbly.
3) Slightly worse graphics card (class 3 instead of class 2 on T500); still both have 256MB
4) Looks a bit uglier...
5) Fan noise is loud & the palm rest on the left heats up rather quickly like my ThinkPad R40's. On the other hand, the T500 is very cool and quite.

None of those cons can make up for the pros & definitely T500 is not worth $500 more.

[ajkula66]

@ThinkPad R:

There's really not much to understand. I wouldn't mind paying $4,000 for a today's equivalent of A31p which I purchased for that amount in 2002, including a three-year on-site warranty. W700 would qualify if it had an LCD to match the one on A31p. It doesn't. So, as much as would be more than happy to spend my money on a high-quality product, I'm not allowed...

Business machines (including my own workhorses) are meant to earn their keep. That's why the idea of a "cheap" business notebook doesn't fly. It never did, and it never will. Serious businesses could care less whether the machine costs $800 or $1,500 if they know that these can be relied upon for the next three years or so...penny-pinching, in a long run, is NOT a viable business practice.

Hope this clears any fog that my previous post may have left behind...

[dr_st]

I don't need a docking station, especially for a 15.6" laptop & not an ultraportable, and according to that review you can get a USB-based port replicator, if you need more ports. That should in fact be a cheaper and smarter solution.

Just because you don't need a docking station does not mean that it is not an important feature. I work in a very big corporation where each employee has a laptop and a desk with keyboard, mouse and monitor. Often also speakers and other accessories. These are all plugged to the dock. It would be unthinkable if the laptops did not have docking support, and every time you would come to your desk, you'd have to connect this plethora of devices to the machine. And yes, it costs money to have. Just because you don't need it does not mean it should not cost money. If I can get by with a $300 netbook with what I do, does it mean that every notebook should cost $300?

1) Still I don't think it's fair to compare the Vostro to the SL series. The Vostro has a way longer battery life (compare 7 hrs vs. 5 hrs) that is also superior to T500's (probably less than 7 hrs with 9 cell & LED display), and it's 1 inch thin, still thinner than T500 that is 1.3" thick.

Just because something does not fit into your theory on the world, does not mean it's not true. From all perspective (feature set, pricing, target audience), the Vostro's competitor is the SL series.

Now indeed it looks like the new Vostro line is much slimmer than before (still 26-38mm for 1520 is comparable to 37-39mm for SL500). And maybe their battery life really improved too (or maybe the numbers are bloated). And they definitely seem lighter. So maybe it means that the Vostro current offering is better than the SL current offering in certain aspects. Is that a reason to scream that all Thinkpads are inferior to all DELLs/Toshibas now?

And suppose that it even has better battery life than T500? Does that mean that the Vostro 1520 is better than T500? No, because battery life is not the only aspect of a laptop! Maybe it is the only one that matters to you, but again - try thinking outside of your own box for a change.

2) I don't really care about the screen resolution, which in fact should not matter for a business-oriented laptop, but anyhow the Vostro also comes with WUXGA, which is essentially the same as WSXGA, I think.

Putting aside your totally ridiculous assumption that everyone in the world is like you, and should not care about screen resolution, can you show me where the Vostro has WUXGA? DELL's site does not mention it.

If it is a business brand, make it affordable, not expensive like a luxury brand.

Business brands are not designed to be affordable. This is what consumer brands are for. Business brands from all manufacturers are and always have been more expensive than their consumer brands. Why don't you go to DELL/HP's sites and check. Luxury brands are typically consumer brands with either high-end hardware or beefed-up wow-factor, or some specific features (gaming-oriented, etc), and they tend to be more expensive as well.

Then tell me how it would be beneficial for a business to buy a ThinkPad rather than a Vostro or Latitude from Dell or Tecra from Toshiba.

Generally, I don't make such claims. The only claims I make, is that on average, the price for similarly configured business laptops from different manufacturers will be comparable. And they are.

People that have more experience than me with different business laptops (archer6 here, for instance) can tell you more about the little things that you don't notice until you actually use the machines. And you can easily find that some offering from some manufacturer has certain advantages over competition, and then certain disadvantages. But overall, they are comparable, and the prices are comparable.

Did you not read my comparison of the Vostro 1520 (business laptop) to a T500? That's not a moral argument & don't make me the bad guy here.

Again, you are drawing flawed parallels, comparing the Vostro to the T. You should compare the Vostro to the SL, and the Latitude to a T.

As you can see, Dell's Vostro 1520 was a way better deal than the T500, and saving money is always a good thing for any business. For the same configuration, the T500 would cost $1387.70 + tax; (at 15% discount) that's definitely $500 more expensive. This huge price difference makes me ask why, and that's a completely fair question.

Why? Docking station, trackpoint, higher-res screen configurations, standardized components (interchangeable batteries/optical drives/etc). These are the major things. For me just the trackpoint is crucial enough to never consider the Vostro as an option. For big businesses, the docking station is crucial (as I explained above). This is actually why the dock-less Vostro/SL models are oftened referred to as "small business models". Just as a side note.

5) Yea CCFL does reduce battery life considerably, by 30~60 minutes. See:

http://www.infoworld.com/t/platforms/ne ... y-life-556

Oooh, so "Apple claims". I undertand. What I'd like to see is a single review comparing two identical laptops, one with LED, one with CCFL, and posting any such data. 30 minutes of battery life, on average, is within an acceptable margin of statistical error. I thus stand by my "marginal at best" claim.

If I can get $1387.70's worth of stuff for $793.00, I should, and I did yesterday.

What I keep trying to tell you over and over again, is that you did not get $1387 worth of stuff for $793. Because the T500 (or a comparable business model) offers things that the Vostro doesn't have. Now, you may not care about them and it is OK. It means that for you it was a smart decision to save money rather than investing it in features, which, to you, are useless. The same way I think that for me, my humble T60, was a much better buy, than a ultra-high-end 17" monster workstation model (a la W700/DELL Precision). But I'd be stupid to claim that these high-end workstations don't have anything to offer which surpasses my laptop. It's just that I don't need it, and don't want to pay for it. But some people do. Does it make them idiots? Nope, they just have different needs. It seems like you have trouble understanding that people's needs can differ from yours.

None of those cons can make up for the pros & definitely T500 is not worth $500 more.

I am very glad that you are happy with your decision (not trying to be sarcastic by any means). I just wish that people would stop trying to pass their frigging opinions as facts. There are plenty of people in the world, for whom these differences are easily worth $500.

[ThinkPad R]

Well I thought we were sharing our opinions in this debate.. I don't see how I tried to deny other people's opinions, although the the "pros" and "cons" that I presented were indeed undeniable facts...

To akjula66:

Well yea, you got 2 different business laptops that you know you will be able to rely upon for the next 3 years easy & one's cheaper and got more stuffs and the other is more expensive and has less & if you don't mind paying for either price, you might as well go for the product with lower price to be smart.

I don't see how in the world the ThinkPad T500 could make up for $500... You guys talk about the ThinkPad's pluses as some sort of magic at work, but I've used a ThinkPad R40 (i.e. CNET editor's choice) & I know there is none of that. If you take satisfaction every time the ThinkPad turns on, lets you work & play, & shuts down, guess what! A cheaper Dell or Toshiba can do that too.... at a much faster pace (i.e. they can be "relied upon").

And don't shame people about "penny-pinching." Let's be proud of being frugal & being smart with your money. You imply that either the ThinkPad will get you plenty of money back (I wish it could b/c it doesn't) or the Vostro will lose you a lot of money ($500+)... Again, there is no magic with business laptops.... I've seen plenty of people use Dell's just as they would ThinkPad's, and the undeniable fact is that the Dell's were usually much faster than the ThinkPad's (i.e. +++ for productivity?).

This is where the battery life comes in. Although these Inspiron & XPS models were much faster than the ThinkPads, they tended to have very poor battery life (i.e. 1.5 ~ 2 hrs), rendering them barely usable as laptops. So because the ThinkPads had this kind of balance between speed/features & usability, I still favored the ThinkPads, even if they were considerably slower for the same amount of $$$. Now that is not the case with the Vostro (and Latitude) however.

-----------
To dr_st:

Well you're getting something wrong. I agree that it should cost to have more stuffs, but not to have merely more options. What's more, I didn't know I had to pay more to get less!

Ah about the WUXGA.... it's strange that the option on the most right is a Latitude in a Vostro page. Sorry I got that confused. But okay, you can go ahead and get the WSXGA.... only it's offered in CCFL & will completely ruin your battery life.

Also, it should only be expected of a ThinkPad fan to not really mind much about the screen. After all, ThinkPad was supposed to lag behind other consumer entertainment laptops in terms of the screen quality. I've seen those A31p's with really nice screens, but if I were to remember correctly most ThinkPad models had very mediocre LCD screens.

I'm sure you could find another Dell non-business or business model that offers WSXGA, but not having that option for the Vostro is definitely not a minus, since you're not paying for it to begin with.

You're somehow trying to imply that the fact that these various options are lacking in the Vostro means that it should be compared with the SL series, but the SL series also has WSXGA... On the other hand, the SL series is much thicker & heavier than the Vostro, whereas the dimensions of T500 is comparable to Vostro's. Also, there's really no reason not to compare the Vostro & T500. In fact I can, and I should. Fine you can compare the Vostro to the SL series; that should not deny you from comparing it to the T series as well.

Of course the battery life is not the only aspect of the laptop, but it is really the only arena where the ThinkPads could hugely make up for all of their shortcomings in terms of other specs. After all, a really fast laptop would be completely unusable if it was really heavy & had just 1~2 hour of battery life. ThinkPads traditionally had significantly more battery life, but that is no longer true.

And about the LED vs CCFL... it is accepted as fact that LED plays a considerable role in increasing the battery life, so I'm not sure where you're getting the margin of error nonsense... I took statistics by the way. 30~ 60 min is considerable, I'd say.

And ummm.... no. Consumer brands can be expensive as well (i.e. Sony), and the Vostro is a business linup, so your argument doesn't apply. Also, Lenovo is forgetting the present-day reality of the capacities in which the consumer and business laptops are primarilyused . With the increasing usage of computers for entertainment, business laptops no longer need to be the fastest and the best-equipped. Their functions are limited to web browsing & typing & presentation, etc., which don't require as much speed as graphic intensive gaming, HD movies, and music. Therefore business laptops no longer need to be more expensive than consumer laptops. Period.

[ajkula66]

@ThinkPad R:

My job brings me to IT departments of Fortune 500 companies on a daily basis, and has been for the past decade. While I've seen many Dell desktops, laptops are usually IBM/Lenovo, business-class HP, Mac or Panasonic. Percentages have changed over the course of years, but the players in the game are still pretty much the same.

ThinkPads do bring more money back on re-sale than other machines, but that was not my point. Even the aforementioned R40 which was a low-end, outsourced-to-Acer-model (which I happen to like regardless) commands more than contemporary Dell or HP, not to mention Gateway or Toshiba. A loaded A31p will still yield $300 or more, six years after the last one rolled of the production line. Show me a comparable Dell/HP/Toshiba/Gateway that will do that. Alienware or Panasonic might, but those belong to different solar systems to begin with.

My employer offers Dell with a deep EPP discount, and many of my co-workers have taken advantage of it. Most of them have lived to regret it, for a variety of reasons: getting machines that were not spec'd as ordered but Dell wouldn't take them back, lousy customer support etc. I've never had that type of an issue with IBM/Lenovo or Panasonic.

If being "smart with one's money" equals driving a Kia, I'm proud of being ignorant with my funds...

While I have my gripes about newer ThinkPads, I'd still put my money on them for customer service/repair service factor alone. But that's me. If I were a large corporate customer, I'd be talking to Panasonic first, Lenovo second and everyone else much later, if at all...

Would I buy a new ThinkPad from the current lineup?
No.
But I wouldn't buy a Dell from any line. That's not something I'd say about Mac or Panasonic, though...

[ThinkPad R]

Don't compare laptops to cars. Computers' capabilities are pretty much strictly limited to the specs & you can't have a better 1GB or a better 2.53GHz Intel Core Duo processor.

I don't think ThinkPads could have good resale value unless they had been loaded (for 100s of $$$ more) at the time of purchase.

It's like saying Intel Pentium M 1.4GHz 256MB 40GB HDD ThinkPad T40 would sell for $300... Nope. The specs are too low. Also, how many of them are sold after 3~4 yrs of use? Not many. It's very difficult & time consuming to sell a used laptop, even a ThinkPad for that matter.

Even if you could sell such a ThinkPad for $300, a used Dell might sell for $200. So, that's in fact only $100 gain in face of $500 loss.

Also, all this storytelling & magical portrayal of ThinkPad's pros have no substance. Dell does not have a terrible customer service. Period.

[ajkula66]

I wasn't comparing computers to cars, but talking about mindsets...cars were just a figure of speech, if you will...

Difficult time to sell a computer, even a ThinkPad? Really? I still sell them worldwide, including a couple on this very forum every week.

It's not "if you could sell"...thousands of people buy and sell them...all the time.

What you think about resale value of a ThinkPad is fairly remedial, since you're obviously not involved in trade on any side. And you seem to be relying on experience of owning a R40 alone...

I've owned and re-sold a four-digit number of these machines. If their resale value was so poor, would I be doing that?

When I used to get Dells as a part of a bulk purchase, I donated them since I never sell stuff I can't stand behind...

Dozens of satisfied customers anywhere from Mexico to Switzerland to Israel to UK to Canada to Ukraine would be more than happy to assure you that I know what I'm talking about...when it comes to ThinkPads, that is...

[dr_st]

I don't see how I tried to deny other people's opinions, although the the "pros" and "cons" that I presented were indeed undeniable facts...

The pros and cons are undeniable facts. The claim "None of those cons can make up for the pros & definitely T500 is not worth $500 more" is an opinion pretending to be a fact. Or maybe you just meant to say that to you it's definitely not worth it?

But okay, you can go ahead and get the WSXGA.... only it's offered in CCFL & will completely ruin your battery life.

You conveniently ignore the fact that there hasn't been a single comparison showing any drastic effect of LED vs CCFL on battery life, and continue chanting your mantras. Well, as long as it helps you convince yourself how good of a deal you got.

Also, it should only be expected of a ThinkPad fan to not really mind much about the screen.

About screen resolution? How wrong you are. High resolution is one of the most critical things for many business applications. When working with complex documents, integrated development environments, virtual machines, heck, even more-than-basic image processing, you'll learn to appreciate every bit of screen estate that you've got. WXGA on a 15.4" screen would be absolutely unacceptable for me. And for many, many Thinkpad fans on these forums.

You're somehow trying to imply that the fact that these various options are lacking in the Vostro means that it should be compared with the SL series, but the SL series also has WSXGA... On the other hand, the SL series is much thicker & heavier than the Vostro, whereas the dimensions of T500 is comparable to Vostro's.

Now it seems that you are misundertanding me. When I say that Vostro is equivalent to the SL, it is not because of some configurable options, but because of the absense of some product-defining features, such as docking station support, which is expected on any serious business laptop. This I think is the biggest one, but there other, smaller ones. This is not an option, it cannot be added.

Of course, you can also compare the Vostro 1520 to the T500, in some aspects, such as thickness and weight. It seems that the 1520 is indeed lighter, although it is thicker (when looking at maximum thickness of 38mm, compared to 35mm for T500). No one says you cannot draw this parallel, except whenever you start to wonder about pricing. The T500 is aiming at other markets, offers different features, and that is why it has different base pricing than the Vostro.

ThinkPads traditionally had significantly more battery life, but that is no longer true.

Depending where. When comparing the T400 with the Latitude E6400, for instance, you'll find that the T400's battery life is somewhat longer. Just saying that you cannot make sweeping remarks regarding all Thinkpads and all other laptops. You have to compare specific models.

And about the LED vs CCFL... it is accepted as fact that LED plays a considerable role in increasing the battery life, so I'm not sure where you're getting the margin of error nonsense... I took statistics by the way. 30~ 60 min is considerable, I'd say.

It is accepted as fact based on manufacturer claims, which people repeat mouth-to-ear. When I say that 30 minutes is not considerable, I don't mean that it's not important to have 30 extra minutes of battery, merely that the measurement accuracy is often insufficient to notice this difference.

You say you took statistics, I'd like to see them, if I may. And I mean - comparing the same (or very similar) laptop configurations, one with LED, one with CCFL. As it stands, I do not deny that there is a positive effect of LED screens on battery life, I only claim that it is greatly exaggerated. Things like the CPU and GPU can make a noticeably bigger difference.

With the increasing usage of computers for entertainment, business laptops no longer need to be the fastest and the best-equipped. Their functions are limited to web browsing & typing & presentation, etc., which don't require as much speed as graphic intensive gaming, HD movies, and music. Therefore business laptops no longer need to be more expensive than consumer laptops. Period.

Business laptops are more expensive NOT because they are the fastest, but because they are equipped with features that are important for the business world. You compare a DELL Studio and a DELL Latitude with the exact same hardware, and you'll notice that the Latitude costs more (even though it does not perform better). Why? Because it has certain features, which I mentioned so many times that it becomes pointless to repeat, and also because it is better built, more thoroughly tested in harsher conditions (making it more reliable), and has better level of technical support to back it up. Same is true about Thinkpads, compared to Lenovo's or others' consumer brands. Vostro/SL and similar series probably sit somewhere in the middle.

Again, I reiterate - when paying premium for a business laptop, you are not paying for more performance. You are paying for a specific feature set, reliability and support. And regardless of whatever advancements have been made in the consumer laptop world in the past years, I think that this premium is still justified. And let me assure you that any big corporation will agree with me. Otherwise they would all be buying Gigabyte and Gateways and Clevos for their employees.

Don't compare laptops to cars. Computers' capabilities are pretty much strictly limited to the specs & you can't have a better 1GB or a better 2.53GHz Intel Core Duo processor.

Nope, you can't have a better 2.53GHz Intel processor, but you can have a laptop that constantly locks up or throttles the CPU because it's overheating due to bad thermal design. Or a laptop that has a terrible soft flexing loud keyboard, and hinges that barely hold the screen up. And voila, same hardware, totally different experience.

This is made just as a general remark, not to claim that your particular choice of Vostro is in any way like those hypothetical bad laptops I described. I happen to have very high esteem of the Vostro, for the right niche and the right price range. But for a serious user with enough cash to invest, I will still recommend a Thinkpad/Latitude/Elitebook before it.

[pianowizard]

There is no arguing, for those who have first hand experience with ThinkPads _and_ the competition (I do) like Dell, Apple, Sony...

The phrase "for those.." means everyone. You have made similar claims numerous times on this forum (and, I'm sure, in real life). Would you mind changing it to "for some..." in the future, which is much more truthful. If you say "for those..." you are including me, which is a problem because I no longer prefer the Thinkpads over other brands. And based on what I've read on this forum, I am definitely not alone.

[archer6]

I no longer prefer the Thinkpads over other brands.

The beauty of having those who do not like ThinkPads on the forum, is the lively and stimulating conversations that occur.

To your request.... NO.

Cheers...

[pianowizard]

To your request.... NO.

You misunderstood my request. Your statement meant that everyone, including me and millions of people in the world, prefer Thinkpads over other brands, which is as incorrect as saying, for example, that everyone on this forum (including me) is a woman. So, please just say "I prefer Thinkpads over other brands" instead from now on, so that you don't drag me and millions others into this false statement.

[archer6]

You misunderstood my request. Your statement meant that everyone, including me and millions of people in the world, prefer Thinkpads over other brands, which is as incorrect as saying, for example, that everyone on this forum (including me) is a woman. So, please just say "I prefer Thinkpads over other brands" instead from now on, so that you don't drag me and millions others into this false statement.

You're right, I read too fast and missed your point. Upon reviewing my post I agree and will be happy to write it differently in the future. Thanks for calling that to my attention.

Cheers...

[ThinkPad R]

Well everyone, I had a lot of fun talking with yall. Let's settle it here, agree to disagree, and turn our minds to other subjects.

I shall report to you guys after some 3 yrs' use of the Vostro about how worse it is than the ThinkPad R40 that I had. Cheers.

[CRAZYBUBBA]

Isn't the Dell latitude a better comparison? The vostro is low-end.

[ThinkPad R]

well i got the vostro, & i'm going to change my mind again. I guess ThinkPad is worth the extra money because

MY VOSTRO IS OVERHEATING AAAAAAAHHH It's tolerable since I'm using an external keyboard & mouse, though.

[carbon_unit]

There is no free lunch. You get what you pay for.
Computers may have issues that cannot be compared in specifications.

[dr_st]

I have yet to see a DELL laptop that wasn't getting hot around the palmrest though. I guess the new Vostros are not an exception.

In fact, if anything, I'd expect it to be worse than previous Vostros, because of the peculiar, yet popular design, where the front of the laptop is much thinner than the back. I guess it's a neat way to trick people to think that their laptop is thinner than it really is. But the cost is that the components located under the palmrest don't have enough space for heat dissipation, and the heat gets transferred to the palmrest, and subsequently the hands.

The Thinkpad X6x series have such a problem as well. When the wireless card in my gf's X61 runs at full power, the right palmrest and the area around it gets scorching hot.