Lenovo quality, the facts are against it?

[Tommy the cat]

Hi all,

This threath goes about the Thinkpad series in general.

Being a Thinkpad fan I keep researching the developments. Since my T400 is going to be replaced by a X300 I was wondering what other users think about this wonderful machine, apart from the ‘expert’ reviews which are mainly very positive.
After doing some research I came to the somewhat surprising conclusion that there are quite a few of complaints regarding Thinkpad products. Mainly these are about failures and the lack of Lenovo support. And with quite a few I mean more than the complaints concerning several other brands, even Acer! Let me give you some numbers:

Lenovo

Thinkpad t61

37% negative (217 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/laptop- ... 107375,30/

31 procent negative (115 users)
http://www.notebookreview.com/price/opi ... &pid=11143

Thinkpad x300

24% negative (105 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/laptop- ... 950762,30/

40 % negative (only 5 users)
http://www.notebookreview.com/price/opi ... 1131&pid=0

Thinkpad x200

26% negative (28 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/laptop- ... 468340,30/

50% negative (10 users)
http://www.notebookreview.com/price/opi ... pid=165976

thinkpad x61

24% negative (28 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/laptop- ... 496757,30/

34,5% (29 users)
http://www.notebookreview.com/price/opi ... 00&pid=184


Asus

Eee 1000 series

10% negative (630 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/netbook ... 95870,354/

Eee older serie

0% negative (18 users)
http://www.notebookreview.com/price/opi ... &pid=17912


Acer

Aspire one

20% negative (108 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/netbook ... 66722,354/

8% negative (49 users)
http://www.notebookreview.com/price/opi ... pid=158937


Apple

MacBook Pro

9% negative (2287 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/laptop- ... 980465,30/

15% negative (1492 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/laptop- ... 913647,30/


The negative percentage doesn’t always mean the same, but it’s a clear negative in terms of function, failure or support. Check out for yourself. The comparisons are fair, because for the different laptops I’ve used the same numbers.

So what is a justifiable conclusion? I was under the impression that, when it comes to quality/reliability, the Thinkpad series as a business line notebook is top of the bill. Professional reviewers seem to agree with that and often refer to Lenovo as being a reliable manufacturer. This paradox may be explained by the fact that these professional reviewers only work with the Thinkpad for a short period of time, while end users like you and me get the real deal.

Thus it seems it’s time to give in to the fact that Thinkpad/Lenovo does not belong to the premium class anymore in terms of reliability?

[Bojje]

I think you can explain a lot of this away with the fact that hard core business users and people who go for a thinkpad do not write their positive experiences down. They only write it down when something bad happens. If we look at the other categories, we see that these computers are more "mainstream" so a teenager who just got his apple laptop is perhaps so thrilled about it that he wants to write a review, while an adult who gets his thinkpad just sees it as a workhorse and is not as enthusiastic about it as to write a review. My thinkpad has so far been very close to being perfect, it has a bit of keyboard flex, but when I get that fixed it will be perfect. My dad has always had thinkpads, and right now his tablet x61 which he got as a launch model still looks brand new.

[Tommy the cat]

I think you're right when you say that Thinkpad users generally differ from Acer users. Nevertheless I don't think that non business thinkpad users differ from Apple and Asus users when it comes to the expectation that their laptop won't get any hardware failure.

However than the question is, do these users differ in reporting it? Maybe the Thinkpad user is more eager to report a failure, I don't know.

So yes, it's hard to conclude anything. But it did surprise me to find these figures

[Harryc]

Well, one thing to consider when you theorize that "Maybe the Thinkpad user is more eager to report a failure, I don't know" is that The X300 in question costs 4 to 5 times what an Acer or Asus Netbook costs as an example, so the purchaser's expectations are much greater for the more expensive Thinkpads. Taking Macboook Pro's as an example, I've noticed a definite difference in the attitude of folks who pay $2K plus for them with regards to expectations. Heck it seems if a fly lands on their machine they freak out, until someone tells them it's normal for flys to do that. The only common complaint I've noticed around the forums with the X300 is LCD quality concerns, but that is a prevalent concern with 99% of all new laptops these days.

[dr_st]

To add to what was already said:

I actually tried to skim through many of these opinions and reviews on NotebookReview (did not look at the other source, since it's too messy), and although it does seem shocking to find so many negative opinions on Thinkpads compared to what's considered lesser notebooks, there are some partial explanations to these:

* People who buy Thinkpads expect a lot - because they pay more and because of the name that Thinkpads have. The higher the expectations the higher the disappointment in case of problems. Reading some of these comments, you can notice that users gave positive ratings for the EEE/Aspire One, despite mentioning some shortcomings, which when mentioned for Thinkpads often caused users to give negative marks.

* People who buy Thinkpads usually are very experienced with laptops, and notice faults that the average consumer might not.

* Most of these complaints are not about quality per se, but more about bloated software, and shoddy support. These are unfortunately true - Lenovo does load more bloatware than you would expect, and even some of the good Thinkvantage tools can be very heavy. As for the low quality of support of Lenovo's subcontractors in the US - I think too many things have been said about it and there is no need to repeat. Usually, when people escalate and are actually serviced by Lenovo's own technicians, the satisfaction is much higher. Unfortunately, one often has to go through a very frustrating experience to get to that.

* The T61 and X61, in particular, IMO, belong to a rather unsuccessful line of laptops, and the Intel Santa Rosa platform is probably as much to blame as Lenovo's engineers in that one.

[visionviper]

I did a scan through many of the reviews and the great majority seem to be software/support related, or in a couple cases user mistakes (Example: one guy misunderstanding the SATA 3Gbps spec and the fact he is limited by his hard drive, not the SATA controller).

I can say though that all the customer satisfaction surveys I have seen Lenovo always ranks very high.

Also, the alatest numbers aren't like the notebook review numbers. Notebook review asked for a thumbs up or thumbs down. Alatest uses an average of the review scores - so you can't really claim a percentage of negative reviews unless you went though all of them and counted them individually and set a baseline (like under 75% is considered negative).

[Tommy the cat]

Again some relevant relativism, thanks.

It may be more accurate to compare business line notebooks from the same price range with the x and t series. Still, there would be many variables and propably too little numbers in comparison to how many users there are... Nevertheless it would be the only indication of reliability I can get to.

[ZaZ]

People who buy Thinkpads expect a lot - because they pay more and because of the name that Thinkpads have.

Is that really true anymore? If you know how to work the coupons or the outlet, you can get a ThinkPad pretty cheap these. Probably less than you'll find at Best Buy or the like, though I think since they resigned the outlet, prices there have gone up it seems.

[dr_st]

If you know how to work the coupons or the outlet, you can get a ThinkPad pretty cheap these.

I'm sure you can, but then you have comparable coupons that allow you to get consumer brands even cheaper.

[VipFreak]

Hmm... I usually don't bother with user reviews anyway. Definitely take it with a grain of salt.

My dad has always had thinkpads, and right now his tablet x61 which he got as a launch model still looks brand new.

How do they do that... ? My palm rests at the very least will start to show with smooth shinny areas from my use. I'm either gonna have to put a protective layer down or buy a replacement palm rest.

[ZaZ]

I'm sure you can, but then you have comparable coupons that allow you to get consumer brands even cheaper.

Perhaps there's some wiggle room there, but you may not get the exact notebook you want.

[carbon_unit]

Is that really true anymore? If you know how to work the coupons or the outlet, you can get a ThinkPad pretty cheap these. Probably less than you'll find at Best Buy or the like, though I think since they resigned the outlet, prices there have gone up it seems.

Yes, it is still true. Some people still complain that their new $700.00 Thinkpad is not as good as their older $1500.00 Thinkpad. Even though the price has come down they expect the quality to be the same or better.

[Kyocera]

* People who buy Thinkpads expect a lot - because they pay more and because of the name that Thinkpads have. The higher the expectations the higher the disappointment in case of problems. Reading some of these comments, you can notice that users gave positive ratings for the EEE/Aspire One, despite mentioning some shortcomings, which when mentioned for Thinkpads often caused users to give negative marks.

* People who buy Thinkpads usually are very experienced with laptops, and notice faults that the average consumer might not.

* Most of these complaints are not about quality per se, but more about bloated software, and shoddy support. These are unfortunately true - Lenovo does load more bloatware than you would expect, and even some of the good Thinkvantage tools can be very heavy. As for the low quality of support of Lenovo's subcontractors in the US - I think too many things have been said about it and there is no need to repeat. Usually, when people escalate and are actually serviced by Lenovo's own technicians, the satisfaction is much higher. Unfortunately, one often has to go through a very frustrating experience to get to that.

dr_st pretty much nailed it. There is probably more collective information about thinkpads than any other computing device ever made so ther is a lot of info to draw many conclusions from.

Is that really true anymore?

Yes, it is still true.

Absolutely still true.

[tomh009]

Yes, it is still true. Some people still complain that their new $700.00 Thinkpad is not as good as their older $1500.00 Thinkpad. Even though the price has come down they expect the quality to be the same or better.

Not just that -- they are also unhappy that Lenovo (like other companies) has gone to 8:5 screens. I think two of the five negative X200 reviews focused on the screen format. And the third one complained about the 1440x900 resolution on an X200s (the #1 reason why I chose an X200s over an X200).

I think the fourth complained about bad support, and the fifth was frustrated by the TrackPoint drifting.

[mattbiernat]

Yes, it is still true. Some people still complain that their new $700.00 Thinkpad is not as good as their older $1500.00 Thinkpad. Even though the price has come down they expect the quality to be the same or better.

+1
there are more expansive models to choose from which are better.