In praise of Thinkpad keyboards

[FragrantHead]

I split work between home and the office. In a move designed to encourage cycling I recently decided to leave my aging Thinkpad in the office, having cloned it into Vmware on my unibody aluminium Macbook at home. This meant spending some serious time with the Macbook on my lap. The result? I feel incredibly hampered by the keyboard. It's not just the layout. Vmware is actually really good at being able to reassign keys. It's the feel, too heavy yet shallow, and the aluminium you hit because the keys travel a tad further down than the aluminium inbetween. I find I have to concentrate just to be sure I'm hitting the keys right. A review somewhere mentioned Apple did research on their keyboards. Seriously? It seems hard to believe right now. Must have had to do with manufacturing the bl00dy things, not with usability.

Similarly the trackpad, for all the great stuff - the two finger scrolling is particularly brilliant, has that basic flaw of all trackpads: you run out of space. You want to drag something, you come to the edge, that's it, on the Apple you don't move any further unless there is a setting I have missed. I admit I'm used to trackpoints.

Am I just getting old? Does anyone think these keyboards with the separated keys, the Apples and the Sonys, are actually a good idea? Dell make a new 16" super-slim laptop full of interesting ideas, a touch-sensitive area next to the screen, an inductive charger, an instant-on feature, but the keyboard, as best as I can tell, looks like one of these new-fangled ones. I'm a bit scared. I just hope Lenovo keep doing what they're doing.

[loyukfai]

I've recently spent a fairly amount of time on one of those "chiclet"-style keyboards (it's a HP). It's not that bad, and I've typed on keyboards far worse. My biggest concern is that the CTRL and Fn keys have switched positions.

But to compare it to a ThinkPad keyboard? No, they're in a league of their own.

Cheers.

[paul*robertson]

Having both a trackpoint and a trackpad (on two different laptops) i have to admit the trackpoint wins every time. My Samsung, i always use a mouse, my TP never.

[Karakasa]

I reckon that Akerlof's awesome theory of peaches and lemons must be adapted to today's whole new level of marketing that has managed to actually make the far better question itself.
In our case: Of course, the new Apple keyboard is nonsense and any author of longer articles, papers or books has learned that long ago.

There are three problems with the keys in particular:
1) The space between them forces you to stretch your fingers further and thus, reduces typing speed. In fact, Apple keyboards already have had keys 0.1 mm smaller than the industry standard which I became annoyingly aware of everytime I wanted to type commata or periods.
2) While the pressure feedback is actually pretty good, as you noticed, the keys sink into the unibody which diminishes the feedback partially.
3) The plain-flat shape of the keys doesn't only prevent you from sliding over the keyboard like on a Thinkpad's but actually makes them break off pretty easily.

From a point of ergonomics and usability, I don't see any reason for separating and shaping keys that way anyway. Thus, I consider Crapp... errr ... Apple's new keyboard as nothing else but a marketing gag which - due to the overwhelming success of Apple's i-line - found followers among PC-producers.

The day Thinkpads will feature such a messed-up idea of novation for the sake of it will be the day when I stop buying notebooks altogether. In fact, I've already grown skeptical of the new T400s-keyboard whose keys I consider as way too flat and the feedback as too weak.

[asiafish]

The day Thinkpads will feature such a messed-up idea of novation for the sake of it will be the day when I stop buying notebooks altogether. In fact, I've already grown skeptical of the new T400s-keyboard whose keys I consider as way too flat and the feedback as too weak.

Thats funny. I own both a T400 and one of those Apples (MacBook Air) and find both of them extremely comfortable and fast to type on.

I've used ThinkPads since the 600e and Apple since the PowerBook 145b (1993), and have both cheered and jeered many new models in comparison to what has come before. The T400 keyboard isn't as good as the 600E or T42p, but is far better than the T2x and fully equal to the T6x.

The MacBook Air keyboard isn't as nice as that of my old 12" PowerBook G4, which was easily at T42p levels, but is still better than the T2x and equal to the T6x/T400.

I'm a keyboard snob, and both Lenovo and Apple (for different reasons) do it well.

I am with you guys on the TrackPoint, but if forced to use a touchpad, Apple's is the best.

[dr_st]

The T400 keyboard isn't as good as the 600E or T42p, but is far better than the T2x and fully equal to the T6x.

It's definitely not equal to the T6x, unless you are using the T6x keyboard... The keyboard is far less stiff and solid, even after the extra support Lenovo added. Yes, I've compared them side by side numerous times. Now, whether it makes the keyboard feel better, worse, or neither is an altogether different question.

The MacBook Air keyboard isn't as nice as that of my old 12" PowerBook G4, which was easily at T42p levels, but is still better than the T2x and equal to the T6x/T400.

I'm a keyboard snob, and both Lenovo and Apple (for different reasons) do it well.

That's the key point. The keyboard designs are so fundamentally different, that it's quite easy to find people who like one but not the other. Having briefly tried the feel of a couple of Macbook Pros, I can say that the keyboard feels of very high manufacturing quality. Just not my cup of tea.

[mattbiernat]

with my mother using several generations of macbooks for work, i have to say that the keyboard got generally worst with every new generation.

[dr_st]

with my mother using several generations of macbooks for work, i have to say that the keyboard got generally worst with every new generation.

Same with the T series since the days of T4x really...

[mattbiernat]

lenovo will certainly catch up with apple when all of their thinkpads comes up with this keyboard:
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/198/23 ... 343851.jpg

[t140568]

lenovo will certainly catch up with apple when all of their thinkpads comes up with this keyboard:
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/198/23 ... 343851.jpg

Is that a PrtSc key at the bottom? Ack! I like being able to hit Ctrl+Alt together with my thumb when doing the Ctrl+Alt+Del.
Worse yet, no separate volume control buttons? Or, wait, do you have to hit the Fn key to use a F1-F12 key? Do explain..

[Nigellus]

I may be a little biased because I learned how to type properly on a ThinkPad 600E, but my ThinkPad has, far and away, the best keyboard I've ever used. If I have any serious typing to do, especially for work on a deadline, I go to my ThinkPad 600E. I have a little trouble with standard keyboards because the scale is just a little too large. I have a lot of trouble with other laptops because of the key shape and spacing. A lot of laptop designers seem to like to shove the caps lock right next to the "A" key so that, if I'm typing and not paying attention, my typing stRTS TO LOOK LIKE THIS.

Part of the problem, I think, is a matter of style over function. They want the keyboard to look sleek and modern and, for some reason, they've decided that the older keyboards don't. What bothers me is that more and more modern keyboards look flat and contourless, like this:

lenovo will certainly catch up with apple when all of their thinkpads comes up with this keyboard:
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/198/23 ... 343851.jpg

which, mattbiernat, is the most frightening thing I've seen on these forums. A ThinkPad keyboard has no business looking like that and I sincerely hope that image is a practical joke.

[mattbiernat]

i have X300 and while the keyboard is okay i don't think it is much better than on my friend's acer, as a matter of fact his keyboard has zero flex and each particular key does not flex either. i have decided to go back a little bit in time and i have bought T60p flexview (which is waiting for me in Los Angeles), hopefully I will get a good keyboard on this unit.

[Puppy]

Today I went to local Lenovo showroom. I compared X200s (WXGA only), X301, T400, R400 and T500 side by side. As expected all models have horrible displays, the X301 one is the worst one, the T500 WSXGA+ was the best one. What I didn't expect was the keyboard "quality". Except the X200s, all other model's keyboards noticeably flexes, especially in Q-W-E keys area. Is there any fix for that ?

[dr_st]

Today I went to local Lenovo showroom. I compared X200s (WXGA only), X301, T400, R400 and T500 side by side. As expected all models have horrible displays, the X301 one is the worst one, the T500 WSXGA+ was the best one.

This is what commonly believed around these parts. Thanks for confirming.

What I didn't expect was the keyboard "quality". Except the X200s, all other model's keyboards noticeably flexes, especially in Q-W-E keys area. Is there any fix for that ?

X301 flexes too? That's something I did not know. Recent T/R series have noticeable flex due to thinner backplate than earlier models, and poor support under the keyboard.

For T/R 400/500 series one can use an older keyboard from T6x/R6x/Z6x. In general, in situations where poor keyboard support is the culprit (which I believe is the case here), one solution is to place additional support in strategic spots underneath the keyboard as I outlined in my last two posts in this thread:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=77897

[Vempele]

Today I went to local Lenovo showroom. I compared X200s (WXGA only), X301, T400, R400 and T500 side by side. As expected all models have horrible displays, the X301 one is the worst one, the T500 WSXGA+ was the best one.

[OT]How did you test them and what standard of horribleness did you compare against?[/OT]

[Puppy]

[OT]How did you test them and what standard of horribleness did you compare against?[/OT]

Against the reality around

[Puppy]

X301 flexes too? That's something I did not know.

Yes. It might be just a bad unit but the keyboard flex was present as well. Not that bad like T400/T500 one but still more than I would consider acceptable. On the other hand the X200s keyboard has nearly the same good feel as my favorite X31 keyboard. X200s with AFFS display mod is very likely the only way to get real ThinkPad these days

[mattbiernat]

x300 flexes too, especially on the left. but this is not a new issue to thinkpads. my T23 has left keyboard flex as well.

[ThinkRob]

On the other hand the X200s keyboard has nearly the same good feel as my favorite X31 keyboard.

!!

Depends on whether you're lucky and got an X200s with the reduced-weight keyboard or one without. There are two models of X200(s) keyboard -- one with larger weight-saving holes in the backplate. I have an X200s with such a keyboard. Frankly, compared to my X61s and my X40, it's crap. It flexes quite a bit, and it doesn't quite sit evenly on the areas of the chassis meant to support it; the practical upshot of all this is that if I press the Fn key, or any of the six keys in the top right, there is an audible clack as the backplate bends down until it makes contact with the support. The area defined by the I, M, backslash, and Shift keys also flexes quite a bit -- the backplate is meant to rest against the hard drive's rubber caps, but that doesn't quite provide enough support to stop the keyboard from flexing.

It's not the end of the world, but it does result in a significantly more flimsy feel than the keyboards found on some of the double-digit models (i.e. T4x/X4x/T6x/X6x).

Just my 0.02c though. It might well be a fine keyboard if you're not as picky as I am.