CES2011: IPS LCDs for the T61, T400 available? (!)

[lophiomys]

I wonder what you want to express in you post, comparing iPads to Thinkpads?
Ok. You are confirming my reverse conclusion, which I consider an experiment of thought.

Poor Lenovo managers, they seem to sit on a sinking ship, pushed around by the
the heavy seas of Apple's success achieved by innovation and relatively good quality?
Man think! On lenovoblogs they are writing about a web cam inside a monior, which
you can close mechanicly, as a brethtaking innovation. That's it.

Just a reminder: there are good IPS screens in iMacs, iPads and optional DreamColor
FHD displays in HP EliteBooks, none so far in modern Thinkpads.

[penartur]

Poor Lenovo managers, they seem to sit on a sinking ship, pushed around by the
the heavy seas of Apple's success achieved by innovation and relatively good quality?

They are not on a sinking ship, and there is no Apple's success on the laptop market. It seems that you didn't read my post carefully.
Lenovo is stronger than apple on a PC market:

1) While lenovo PC market share is 10%, apple PC market share is 4.5%.

Or you can consider the entire laptop/PC industry to be a sinking ship. Then a tablets industry is a sinking ship too, but apple managed to dominate on it, 95% of tablets are ipads. I doubt you would expect it on a laptops market (i.e. 95% of laptops are thinkpads) or like it. Also, there is only one apple tablet (ipad), but i doubt you would expect it on a laptops market from lenovo (i.e. there is only one thinkpad model with an only configurable option being a HDD) or like it.
Phones are not sinking ship however.
But we're talking about thinkpads, not thinkphones or thinktablets. It is not that apple is doing such a cool things, it is you (and other people) comparing completely different markets. It is like saying "oh, lenovo is a really bad company, they're only purchasing 10 millions of CCFL lights in a year, while some lightbulbs manufacturer sells 10 billions of CCFL lightbulbs in a year".

Man think! On lenovoblogs they are writing about a web cam inside a monior, which you can close mechanicly, as a brethtaking innovation. That's it.

Not as a breathtaking innovation but rather as about great and innovative design solution. And they're right, this is really great and innovative design solution - or have you seen such a mechanical shutter in a webcam elsewhere?
And most innovations seems to be simple. However, there are two groups of people: people from the first (smaller) group are inventing new simple innovations which, step by step, change the world; and people from the second (larger) group are complaining "what are they doing, why are they calling this an innovation, it is soooooooo simple, they should be ashamed of themselves". And why i'm not surprised that these two groups do not intersect?

[dr_st]

Just a reminder: there are good IPS screens in iMacs, iPads and optional DreamColor
FHD displays in HP EliteBooks, none so far in modern Thinkpads.

The only one of these that is a relevant comparison to a Thinkpad is the HP Elitebook. And while HP does have it in only one model so far, this model (17" workstation costing an arm and a leg) in itself is not very interesting to the majority of laptop users.
Edit: I was wrong - it is also available on the 15.6" 8540w. This tips the scale a bit towards the mainstream. It will be interesting to see how long it will take Lenovo/others to follow suit.

[lophiomys]

The DreamColor display is also offered for the 15.4" EliteBook 8540p.

I mean who is takling cheap here? iMacs and iPads are kind of pricey.
My T42p with Flexview also cost an arm an a leg in 2004!
Also the X200T with AFFS screen is in the 2000.- EUR class in Europe. Not cheap either.

It's not my point to compare iPads an the like with Thinkpads.
My point is that there are IPS screens available on the OEM market,
if you'd really want to fit them into Thinkpads.

[pianowizard]

And while HP does have it in only one model so far, this model (17" workstation costing an arm and a leg)

HP also offers their DreamColor 2 option for the 15.6" EliteBook 8540w. So, two models.

[dr_st]

HP also offers their DreamColor 2 option for the 15.6" EliteBook 8540w. So, two models.

You could be right, but has this been confirmed to be IPS/VA?

[pianowizard]

You could be right, but has this been confirmed to be IPS/VA?

Yes, that's what lots of people have been saying over on the Notebookreview forum. And through Google I just found this:

http://www.lapspecs.com/wiki/hp+elitebook+8540w

[dr_st]

I found the whitepaper by HP, which explicitly mentions the 15.6" display to be IPS as well. This is as official as it gets:
http://www.jeremyschultz.com/DreamColor ... r_2010.pdf

So I stand corrected.

[ThinkRob]

Interesting. I wonder what the panel actually is...

I guess that confirms it though: HP offers two 15" laptops with vastly superior screens to those found in the T510/W510.

[pianowizard]

I guess that confirms it though: HP offers two 15" laptops with vastly superior screens to those found in the T510/W510.

One is 16:10 17.0" 1920x1200, and the other is 16:9 15.6" 1920x1080.

[bill bolton]

You are confirming my reverse conclusion, which I consider an experiment of thought.

Starting off with a bunch false premises can only result in an experiment is a fatally flawed.

the heavy seas of Apple's success achieved by innovation and relatively good quality?

Not to mention heavy user cost of a brutally closed eco-system that is deliberately designed to lock users in as far as possible, and effectively criminalises behaviour that might open up that eco-system.

[lophiomys]

Starting off with a bunch false premises can only result in an experiment is a fatally flawed.

My words, but I consider your reply a bit too dramatic.
(Maybe my command of the English language is reaching it's limits here, so I could miss some of the more sublte connotations of your reply.)
In the worst case it's a thoughtful experiment failing.
What I consider fatally flawed is, that Thinkpads don't have Flexview screens any more.

Not to mention heavy user cost of a brutally closed eco-system that is deliberately designed to lock users in as far as possible, and effectively criminalises behaviour that might open up that eco-system.

That's absolutely true. I'm amongst the Linux & FOSS believers, and fully aware of the limitations
of a closed proprietary platform.
What I observe on the OSX/iOS plattform is that it's a hassle free experience for the end user,
And therefore worth the extra money. I've seen quite a few people switching from Windows PC to Macs,
who never looked back for a second.
Developing for the iOS platform is a total lock into the system. iSteve is doing things worse than M$, but
he created a market worth developing for and many things are technically very well designed.

To come back to my arguments involving Apple was, that they actually can fit IPS screens in some of their devices,
what Lenovo claimed would be impossilble for Thinkpads! Apple offers a comfortable user experience (also for the
developer) which is IMO based on technical innovations, good desing (I dont't like it, many others do) and a rock
solid hardware-software integration. Something yet to be seen in the PC/Windows arena. Apple did the "impossible"
by working very hard, thats why they are in a strong market position today.

IMO, if Lenovo would have only put up halve of Apples efforts, we'd have breath-taking Thinkpads today on
the market, and this discussion would be non-existent.

[penartur]

To come back to my arguments involving Apple was, that they actually can fit IPS screens in some of their devices, what Lenovo claimed would be impossilble for Thinkpads!

The key words being "devices" and "thinkpads". One could say as well "Apple actually can fit 40 hours battery in some of their devices (iPod), what Lenovo claimed would be impossible for Thinkpads!". Or "Lenovo actually can fit Core i7 CPUs in some of their devices, what Apple claimed would be impossible for iPhones".

Apple laptops are equipped with TN screens just like Lenovo laptops. Why don't you complain that Apple does not use IPS in their laptops?
Even more, Lenovo representative explained why there is no IPS screens in thinkpads, and Apple is not going to give explanations.

Why do you continue to compare two completely different markets and then compare two different vendors by some figures taken from one market for one manufacturer and from other market for other manufacturer? "Apple puts more efforts in their products when compared to lenovo because apple phones shipments are higher than that of lenovo laptops" - you could as well say that BurgerKing puts more efforts in their products when compared to McDonalds because BurgerKing burgers sales are higher than that of McDonalds happy meal toys.
Let's compare oranges to oranges, not oranges to cheese.

IMO, if Lenovo would have only put up halve of Apples efforts

e.g. in creating a single model of ThinkPad (just like iPhone) where only the HDD capacity could be customized, and which sells 18 million units per quarter (just like iPhone), taking 20% of the entire PC market? Do you really believe that it is possible that every fifth PC sold is a specific thinkpad model (let's say T510), no matter how hard lenovo tries? Do you want every fifth PC out there to be a specific thinkpad model (let's say T510)? And don't forget that, according to various iphone teardown reviews, actual cost of its components (memory, LCD, radio etc) is about 1/5th of its retail price, while for ThinkPads it is 1/2 or more, so, if we will continue this analogy, such a T510 would cost 2.5x more than now (that is, from $4000 if we will consider i7/Optimus/FHD/Cam/FP/WiMax configuration; don't forget that the only customizable option is HDD capacity).
How about thinkpads being represented by a single T510 model, starting from $4000 and taking 20% of the entire PC market?
So stop comparing different markets.

[beeblebrox]

Well, there are different quality grades in LCDs, even in the same production line.
Apple usually buys grade A. Cheapest discounters use the cheap leftovers.

I often had the impression that Lenovo takes the cheap shortcut. Reminds me of the timely presentation of the then brand-new X300. The same week with the introduction of the first MacBook Air.
The X300 followed Lenovo's tradition: a Sh*tty LCD, while Apple had a wonderful display, as usual. Both were TN.

besides: Flexviews were very expensive because they had a new technology in small production numbers. That was 10 years ago, when color LCDs were still extremely expensive.

Today we have IPS everywhere, many large screen TVs in the living room are IPS, AFFS or *VA. The initial R&D is amortized and production lines are up and running. 16:9 is the de-facto standard for everyone. I do not see any reason why IPs can not be sold on the premium brand line again. Lenovo argued that small IDtech was not reliable with large quantities.
But Samsung is producing IPS for iPads, LG-Philips as well as does Hyundai for TVs.
The financial burden for IPS is neglegible now. Even Kno can buy 16:10 IPS screens in smaller quantities.
In summary I do not see any reason for Lenovo to not optionally offer a 16:9 15.6" IPS LCD again. It is standard technology and standard size. High production quantities would be possible without a problem.

[penartur]

Today we have IPS everywhere, many large screen TVs in the living room are IPS, AFFS or *VA. The initial R&D is amortized and production lines are up and running. 16:9 is the de-facto standard for everyone. I do not see any reason why IPs can not be sold on the premium brand line again. Lenovo argued that small IDtech was not reliable with large quantities.
But Samsung is producing IPS for iPads, LG-Philips as well as does Hyundai for TVs.
The financial burden for IPS is neglegible now. Even Kno can buy 16:10 IPS screens in smaller quantities.
In summary I do not see any reason for Lenovo to not optionally offer a 16:9 15.6" IPS LCD again. It is standard technology and standard size. High production quantities would be possible without a problem.

It was said many times before: lenovo said that they need at least 15000 orders to consider offering an IPS option (which means that likely the minimum amount of screens they need to order from manufacturers is 15000), and Kno is aimed to be produced in numbers greater than 15000 (or it would not be economically feasible to develop such a device). Don't forget that while Kno customers have no screen choice, lenovo offers many screen options in their thinkpads, and it seems that only small fraction of lenovo customers will pay an extra for an IPS screen.
Also, with iPad being so overwhelmingly popular, and with its ads mentioning IPS over and over, it is possible that IPS is more popular now among the customers, and it might make sense for lenovo (and maybe other manufacturers as well) to start offering an IPS option again, now, when iPad cleared the way. For example, i doubt Kno would have been equipped with IPS screen if there was no iPad.

[dr_st]

Samsung is producing IPS for iPads

Will I be darned, looks like it's true. At first I was like "What? Impossible. Samsung never does IPS, they do VA." But after some googling it seems like they developed their own IPS-spinoff, which they call "Super PLS". It sounds interesting. I wonder when it will be possible to see it in laptop/desktop LCDs and not just portable devices.

[ThinkRob]

Well, there are different quality grades in LCDs, even in the same production line.
Apple usually buys grade A.

I wouldn't go that far. They buy some good screens, but I wouldn't say "usually." I know this because I've disassembled a number of 2006-2010 MacBooks. Plenty of them have had low-end Chi Mei and AUO panels, same as Lenovo. Some have had very nice Chi Mei panels -- but they were the exception more than the rule.

Also, the MacBook Air shipped with a WXGA panel, specifically an AU Optronics B133EW03 V1. The X300 shipped with a higher-resolution WXGA+ panel. In sizes < 14", WXGA panels aren't terribly rare. WXGA+, on the other hand, is. The X300 shipped with one of the very few WXGA+ panels in existence, a TMD LTD133EQ1B. Yes, the LTD133EQ1B gets blown out of the water in terms of contrast ratio and viewing angle when compared to the B133EW03. Of course when compared to other 13.3 WXGA+ panels... well... that's tricky, since the LTD133EQ1B is the only one I've found.

penartur makes a good point: you can either have the perks of the economies of scale brought about by Apple's "one product, few choices" approach to part of the mobile computing market, *or* you can have the flexibility to customize a wide range of models with numerous options. You can't have it both ways -- at least not without massively increased market share.

[penartur]

penartur makes a good point: you can either have the perks of the economies of scale brought about by Apple's "one product, few choices" approach to part of the mobile computing market, *or* you can have the flexibility to customize a wide range of models with numerous options. You can't have it both ways -- at least not without massively increased market share.

My point was that even with the large marketshare, it is still impossible to have it both ways.

[ThinkRob]

My point was that even with the large marketshare, it is still impossible to have it both ways.

Ah. Well that too.

[anthean]

I see the EFUN Nextbook Next3 (Laptop Magazine: http://blog.laptopmag.com/hands-on-with ... z1BGRrNST8) not only has a 4:3 screen ratio, but is produced in the relatively uncommon size of 8.4 inches, and is available for only $299.

So much for the claim that unusual screen ratios and sizes drive up costs to astronomical levels.

And note that this isn't Apple, which admittedly ships gazillions.

[penartur]

I see the EFUN Nextbook Next3 (Laptop Magazine: http://blog.laptopmag.com/hands-on-with ... z1BGRrNST8) not only has a 4:3 screen ratio, but is produced in the relatively uncommon size of 8.4 inches, and is available for only $299.

So much for the claim that unusual screen ratios and sizes drive up costs to astronomical levels.

And note that this isn't Apple, which admittedly ships gazillions.

And certain mobile files are produced in "relatively uncommon" size of 2.4", while having 4:3 aspect ratio.
8.4" screens are used in some tech like GPS navigation, cars displays, ATMs etc...
By the way, it seems that the only difference between that EFUN and e.g. Nationite MidNite is its size (8.4" 800x600 vs. 7" 800x480), while the latter is $100 cheaper.

[automobus]

I see the EFUN Nextbook Next3 not only has a 4:3 screen ratio, but is produced in the relatively uncommon size of 8.4 inches, and is available for only $299.

Actually, that is common among Tablet PC slates (though you can call Tablet PC slates uncommon). See Motion LS800, MobileDemand T8700, Fujitsu Stylistic LT, GETAC E100.

[beeblebrox]

Well, there are different quality grades in LCDs, even in the same production line.
Apple usually buys grade A.

I wouldn't go that far. They buy some good screens, but I wouldn't say "usually." I know this because I've disassembled a number of 2006-2010 MacBooks. Plenty of them have had low-end Chi Mei and AUO panels, same as Lenovo. Some have had very nice Chi Mei panels -- but they were the exception more than the rule.

Also, the MacBook Air shipped with a WXGA panel, specifically an AU Optronics B133EW03 V1. The X300 shipped with a higher-resolution WXGA+ panel. In sizes < 14", WXGA panels aren't terribly rare. WXGA+, on the other hand, is. The X300 shipped with one of the very few WXGA+ panels in existence, a TMD LTD133EQ1B. Yes, the LTD133EQ1B gets blown out of the water in terms of contrast ratio and viewing angle when compared to the B133EW03. Of course when compared to other 13.3 WXGA+ panels... well... that's tricky, since the LTD133EQ1B is the only one I've found.

penartur makes a good point: you can either have the perks of the economies of scale brought about by Apple's "one product, few choices" approach to part of the mobile computing market, *or* you can have the flexibility to customize a wide range of models with numerous options. You can't have it both ways -- at least not without massively increased market share.

Ok, my bad. I was trying to say that Apple always buys Grade A for their premium line. They also have the cheaper Macbook and the plastic models. Seeing the top-of-the-line Macbook Pro next to the cheap model shows the difference in LCD quality.

I think one of the main reasons Thinkpads don't have good LCDs is the corporate market, where the purchasing dept. always cuts the costs. Business notebooks just have to be good enough for business productivity. I think HP with its new Probook IPS series is trying to distinguish themselves for high-end multimedia markets, where Thinkpads are still quite rare.

Apple can afford buying the best LCDs since they are positioned in the high-end premium consumer market where individuals choose their own book in the Apple Store. Corporate employees ususally get their notebook from a wish list approved by the IT dept.

Apple is going forward with their own LCD production, they just injected some USD 4.0BB into a new fab with some LCD manufacturers. With 60 million iPads with IPS LCDs shipped this year they have cost advantages beyond imagination. Probably they will also use IPS for their Macbook Pros soon to keepr their price premium. A brilliant LCD is always the best rationale for consumers to hand over "mucho dinero" in an instant.

Compare this to Lenovo who ask 15.000 buyers to cough up some money for them to order a few custom made LCDs. Ridiculous, what a bad joke.

[anthean]

Apple can afford buying the best LCDs since they are positioned in the high-end premium consumer market where individuals choose their own book in the Apple Store. Corporate employees ususally get their notebook from a wish list approved by the IT dept.

Apple is going forward with their own LCD production, they just injected some USD 4.0BB into a new fab with some LCD manufacturers. With 60 million iPads with IPS LCDs shipped this year they have cost advantages beyond imagination. Probably they will also use IPS for their Macbook Pros soon to keepr their price premium. A brilliant LCD is always the best rationale for consumers to hand over "mucho dinero" in an instant.

I see the MacBook Pros released today retain the 16:10 screen ratio.

While I am not keen on the chiclet keyboard and loss of a the pointer, I will seriously consider a MacBook for my next notebook.

Hey, I can always dual-boot to Windows.

[sanjuro]

I see the MacBook Pros released today retain the 16:10 screen ratio.

While I am not keen on the chiclet keyboard and loss of a the pointer, I will seriously consider a MacBook for my next notebook.

Hey, I can always dual-boot to Windows.

Their LCD's better than those on most Thinkpads and also have high resolution option available on 15 or 17" MBPs.

Dual booting or VM solutions work pretty well to run Windows too.

[pianowizard]

Both Dell's and HP's 17" WUXGA laptops are also going 16:9 and thus losing 10% of real estate. So, I may also be forced to switch to the 17" Macbook Pro at some point.

[ThinkRob]

Both Dell's and HP's 17" WUXGA laptops are also going 16:9 and thus losing 10% of real estate. So, I may also be forced to switch to the 17" Macbook Pro at some point.

I doubt that Apple has a sweetheart deal to continue being the only real buyer of 16:10 screens. More likely is that due to their large volume, changes in supply take longer to "trickle down" to the consumer; they probably have a large supply of older parts on hand so it might take a while for them to exhaust their stock.

[pianowizard]

they probably have a large supply of older parts on hand so it might take a while for them to exhaust their stock.

I compliment Apple for hoarding so many of these WUXGA panels.

Anyway, I plan to either hold on to my current D820 and M90 for as long as possible, or keep buying used WUXGA laptops. But obviously I can't keep doing this indefinitely, because at some point (e.g. 10 years from now) none of today's WUXGA laptops would be powerful enough, just as I wouldn't want to use a 2001 laptop today. Hopefully, before the year 2021, we will have 16:9 laptop panels with resolutions higher than 1920x1080, for instance 2048x1152. I don't mind the 16:9 aspect ratio per se; I just hate the fact that the highest laptop res we have now is only 1920x1080.

[ThinkRob]

I compliment Apple for hoarding so many of these WUXGA panels.

I'm not sure it's a question of foresight as much as it is retail volume: Apple has a very narrow product line, and coupled with their high volume that gives them the opportunities to source parts in much larger quantities than Lenovo or Dell can.

Personally, I've got a few nice 4:3 ThinkPads that I plan on using for a while. My main machine now is a 14.1" SXGA+ T60 which is just about the perfect form factor for my daily work. I've also got a SXGA+ 15" T60 coming in for a refit. Depending on what my costs look like for that I may keep it too and replace my T43p with it. Either way, between the T60(s) and my 600x I've got a fair bit of "classic" computing power to tide me over for some time to come.

[anthean]

I'm not sure it's a question of foresight as much as it is retail volume: Apple has a very narrow product line, and coupled with their high volume that gives them the opportunities to source parts in much larger quantities than Lenovo or Dell can.

Yeah, I tend to think Apple gets what it wants.

Their iPhone has a "retina" display.

The iPad is 4:3

I wouldn't be surprised if MacBooks have new-build 10:16 displays because that is what Apple wants.