The Brand New $299 laptop

[fefrie]

I was perusing the best buy pages and since I don't shop for technology very often, I was surprised to find that yes they (still) do sell budget laptops. This one came with 3gb of ram and a 300gb hard drive, etc, etc.

I find that incredibly cheap since a used thinkpad for $299 will get you in and around t60 territory and barely into t400 territory.

With stuff being so cheap new these days, it's getting tough to justify buying good used stuff.

I'll stick with my thinkpads generally because when they do have issues, I have guys like you on the forums, and parts are easy to replace, however, the lure of cheap and new is tempting. Oh, and for size and useability, nothing beats a 4:3 14" SXGA format.

I'll have to stick to the rule of "twos" cheap, new, good, pick only two. (a variant on the old saying, cheap, fast, good)

[penartur]

I'm not rich enough to afford cheap things so i'd choose an used T60 (probably with some warranty left and with IPS screen) over the "brand new" noname chinese crap (that will die unexpectedly any day) any day, pardon the pun.
Not to mention you seem to slightly exaggerate the prices on used ThinkPads... i purchased an off-lease T400 (1400*900, 2 years of warranty left, and it is like new) for $450 about a year ago.

[underclocker]

It is a quality thing. The specifications on new machines are incredible compared to two year old or older machines. Some of the $300 machine seem to be worth buying just for their parts! However, I've owned hundreds of ThinkPads and many non-ThinkPads and there is quite a difference between new, cheap machines and ThinkPads.

Basically, cheap machines feel cheap and wear poorly and quickly. They may be fast, but they are cheap! If you are in tune to the feel of quality, and some people are not, then you will notice the difference before you even turn on a laptop. Cheap machines have flimsy keyboards, easily damaged, lower-grade plastics, and show wear from use almost immediately.

However, they do serve a purpose. If you can be very careful with them, they are great performers for the money.

As I've commented on before in this forum, even several models in the ThinkPad Edge line are noticeably lower quality than the ThinkPad line, but the pricing is excellent.

I've stuck with used ThinkPads versus new entry level machines because the quality and design of ThinkPads has been top-notch. Currently, my work machine is a five year old ThinkPad Z61m (upgraded with an SSD).

[pianowizard]

I think as long as you take excellent care of your laptops, don't need to play the latest games, don't mind bulky and heavy laptops, and don't mind 1366x768, then these $220-to-$300 machines are ideal for you. I don't buy them, because I hate 1366x768 and need lighter units.

[penartur]

don't need to play the latest games

Why to choose "brand new $299" laptop over an used T61/T400 then?

[pianowizard]

Why to choose "brand new $299" laptop over an used T61/T400 then?

For Thinkpad fans, I agree. But for the average consumer, these brand-new budget laptops are more appealing than used Thinkpads because they carry 1 year of warranty, are somewhat faster, and look nicer.

[penartur]

For Thinkpad fans, I agree. But for the average consumer, these brand-new budget laptops are more appealing than used Thinkpads because they carry 1 year of warranty, are somewhat faster, and look nicer.

An used T400 may also carry 1 year of warranty... or maybe even 2 years.

[Temetka]

Yes but your average consumer is not aware of, nor cares to know about such things.

They are barely intelligent people with a mentality of "ooh! Shiny!" and thats about it.

Oh and they poop a lot too.

[Brian10161]

I know someone like that, bought a laptop because it was white...

[penartur]

Yes but your average consumer is not aware of, nor cares to know about such things.

However, there is still a big difference between paying $300 for a brand new piece of crap every year (or more frequently) and paying the same $300 for a thinkpad that will last for years.

Oh and they poop a lot too.

DO you have anything against the rainbows?

[automobus]

One visit from Geek Squad, for even a short and simple matter, will cost half that much. Those budget laptops have just a one year limited warranty, and something is likely to go wrong. Or a user error is likely. When Geek Squad brings in $150, most of that money is profit (the cost does not include a whole new computer). I don't know what a typical retail store's profit margin is, though I bet they make less than one-half profit on a $300 computer. Therefore I believe they make more money from a single Geek Squad Mission than selling a new product.

And, I bet half of the calls to Geek Squad is to fix a "virus problem"; the fix for that is just a free download and license agreement.

[ajkula66]

I *love* Geek Squad...

One of my recent purchases was a 14" Intel-based T43 that was "destroying hard drives" according to the owner who had carried in to The Death Squad...

The hard drive - a NOS Hitachi 40/5400 - was destroyed indeed. By being pushed to the limit of its physical ability to go in the wrong way.

No I'm NOT kidding.

Bought it for $25 with AC adapter included, threw in an old Fujitsu 60GB and gave it to a friend whose daughter needed a laptop but couldn't afford one...

I've also recently seen a CF-29 ToughBook that they attempted to repair, failed, and couldn't even put back together properly...

I could write a book, but why bother...their ignorance has turned into my bliss many a times...

[underclocker]

t

I don't know what a typical retail store's profit margin is, though I bet they make less than one-half profit on a $300 computer.

On a $300 laptop, I'd guess the actual profit is less than $15. Really.

[automobus]

I *love* Geek Squad...
their ignorance has turned into my bliss many a times

How do you take advantage of that? Do the sorry customers not leave the computer in the Squad's hands for a discount off a new purchase?

On a $300 laptop, I'd guess the actual profit is less than $15. Really.

I was thinking less than $50, but not that low.

[pianowizard]

However, there is still a big difference between paying $300 for a brand new piece of crap every year (or more frequently) and paying the same $300 for a thinkpad that will last for years.

I have never owned one of these super-budget craptops, but would imagine that as long as one handles them with extreme care, they can last for years. A couple months ago, I came across a really nice $250 14" Acer laptop at Best Buy and almost bought it. It's no longer available and I wish I had bought one so that I could find out how long it would last for.

I was thinking less than $50, but not that low.

I read somewhere that profit margins are extremely low for the manufacturers. Specifically, HP's profit is only like 4% for every computer it sells, whereas for Dell it's even lower, like 2%. I suspect that the retail stores' profit margins are comparable to these pitiful figures.

[ThinkRob]

I have never owned one of these super-budget craptops, but would imagine that as long as one handles them with extreme care, they can last for years. A couple months ago, I came across a really nice $250 14" Acer laptop at Best Buy and almost bought it. It's no longer available and I wish I had bought one so that I could find out how long it would last for.

As one who has owned his fair share of the ultra-budget computers, this is basically correct. But there's one catch: when they start to fail, they tend to go all at once. In my experience, as soon as something breaks, expect a couple more parts to break in short order -- think "Jenga" for laptop repair...

Still, if you just need a way to take a whole bunch of CPU, disk, and RAM from point A to point B a few times, they're a perfectly reasonable choice.

[rossmosis]

I could write a book, but why bother...their ignorance has turned into my bliss many a times...

Oh I know that feeling, the words "if you can fix it, you can keep it!" never get old

[Thinkpad Lover]

I don't know what a typical retail store's profit margin is, though I bet they make less than one-half profit on a $300 computer.

On a $300 laptop, I'd guess the actual profit is less than $15. Really.

As a teenager I worked for a *huge* electronics giant which has stores nationwide. I got to see one of their senior "buyers" in action. I was also privileged to see some actual unit costs in their computer system and surprisingly, on a $300, cheaply designed "budget item" they could still easily make a $50 profit. They have massive purchasing power and so when they decided to go after a certain item and feature it in their newspaper and Television ads nationwide, they would purchase such massive quantities of it and negotiate such a rock-bottom price with their suppliers in China, HK or wherever, that they would always make a decent profit per item, or not bother. They wouldn't care about the human rights record of that nation, if the item was produced with child labor, slave labor, prison labor, or in classic sweatshop style. As long as they made their profit margin, they were happy. That's a corporate giant. That's buying power. That's big business. That's your "budget laptop."

Daniel.

[underclocker]

As a teenager I worked for a *huge* electronics giant which has stores nationwide. I got to see one of their senior "buyers" in action. I was also privileged to see some actual unit costs in their computer system and surprisingly, on a $300, cheaply designed "budget item" they could still easily make a $50 profit.

That was then. Times have definitely changed. Oftentimes, there is literally no profit with a $300 laptop. The store hopes that you'll buy a laptop bag, software, a warranty, blank DVDs or anything else that has some profit margin along with the loss leader $300 laptop.

[automobus]

That was then. Times have definitely changed. Oftentimes, there is literally no profit with a $300 laptop. The store hopes that you'll buy a laptop bag, software, a warranty, blank DVDs or anything else that has some profit margin along with the loss leader $300 laptop.

More than accessories and a video game, I think, Big Store hopes more than anything that the customer returns for Help And Support. Customer pays $150 to hear "it's gone, hopeless; buy another". Cycle repeats.

As one who has owned his fair share of the ultra-budget computers, this is basically correct. But there's one catch: when they start to fail, they tend to go all at once. In my experience, as soon as something breaks, expect a couple more parts to break in short order -- think "Jenga" for laptop repair...

Yes, such as power inlet, headphone jack, network port all breaking loose at once and the USB ports fail.

[pianowizard]

As a teenager I worked for a *huge* electronics giant which has stores nationwide. I got to see one of their senior "buyers" in action. I was also privileged to see some actual unit costs in their computer system and surprisingly, on a $300, cheaply designed "budget item" they could still easily make a $50 profit.

That was then. Times have definitely changed. Oftentimes, there is literally no profit with a $300 laptop. The store hopes that you'll buy a laptop bag, software, a warranty, blank DVDs or anything else that has some profit margin along with the loss leader $300 laptop.

Thinkpad Lover, how long ago was this? I was going to agree with underclocker that "times have changed", but then I remembered that $300 craptops have been around for no more than 5 years. When I was shopping for my first laptop in 2002, the cheapest budget laptops were just under $1K.

[Thinkpad Lover]

I wasn't referring to a budget laptop specifically but just making a general statement about profit margins on $300, cheaply designed "budget items" that I have personally observed. I can't speak for certain about how difficult it would be to turn a $50 profit on a $300 "budget laptop" but I've seen it done on other items. And yes, I realize the primary purpose of a budget laptop which fills a useful niche in the market is not necessarily to make a huge profit on the item itself, but to get customers into the store, add on the accessories, optional warranty upgrades, refer them to their associate repair ships when the cheap piece of junk breaks, and sell them another one in a year or two. I realize all of those things.

But I'm not talking about small retail stores here. I'm referring to large corporate giants. What I do know is that when they set up advertising campaigns, decide to feature a product, purchase these items in bulk and work out a deal with suppliers in China they can purchase items far below what you might imagine. Once a huge order from an American firm comes in, the manufacturing process in China is so streamlined, processes are so automated and workers are so deprived that they can crank these babies out for far less than you think, especially since these kinds of laptops are made with cheap synthetic plastics and other such components. I've already seen how the per unit cost of certain items can rapidly diminish when buying in bulk, cutting a deal for some other items they want to unload, or catching them at a time when they want to clear out some warehouse space. It's about being a shrewd buyer. There are some deals to be made. This is just on a small scale in my own personal life, and at small retail locations here in NYC. But I have already found sources for very popular items such as a $300 budget laptop where, if I did have the capital to purchase just 1000 units *it seems* I could make that $50 profit per item. And yes, that's taking into consideration the cost of advertising, transport, storage, rent, employee salaries, sales tax, import duties, etc. I'm just not in a position yet to receive large pallets of freight hot off the boat from China. And of course I don't know that I want to sell low-end junk, and I don't want to exploit workers in China, Thailand, Latin America, India, Pakistan, or wherever. I would rather sell Thinkpads anyway. But of course if someone only has $299 to spend, as I said before, it does fill a useful niche in the market. As long as the customer realizes that stuff cannot take rough handling and stand up as well as a Thinkpad with a magnesium alloy roll cage.

Daniel.

[ajkula66]

Big box stores - just like car dealers and mortgage companies - make the most of their profit on financing...

Can't afford that $799 laptop/flatscreen TV/whatever ? No problem, 12 months with 0% interest rate...*if* you pay it off by that time, which a vast majority of consumers don't, and get slapped with 29% interest rate from "the small print"...

The very nature of (non-food) retail has changed dramatically during the mid-90's, and shaped into the form we know today somewhere during Bush's first term...not that he had much to do with it.

That's why economy worldwide is headed into dire straits...not everyone can, or should be a banker. In order to grow, one *must* produce something...even the Swiss which have been the bankers of the world as we know it for the past 300 years actually make cheese, chocolate, army knives and exotic cars...

[sysiphus]

Having worked in a big-box store, I can attest to the lack of quality in the cheap machines--we here with our ThinkPads flip out over a bit of keyboard flex, or hinges that develop a little play over a couple years of hard use...try using your average ~500USD (and those aren't even the REALLY cheap ones) laptop and you'll get a wobbly latchless low-res glossy screen, thin, cheap plastic, inadequate cooling, flexible keyboards with asinine layouts, no ExpressCard/PCMCIA slots, crappy WiFi cards, and non-modular parts (forget about easy keyboard and optical drive replacements). Heaven forbid there's a docking station port, or TPM chip.

The store I'm familiar with was located very near the Microsoft main campus, and got a great deal of traffic from tech contractors who were used to Latitudes, EliteBooks, ThinkPads, Tecras...it was actually kind of funny how frequently I got to tell them we had ~nothing~ that could meet their needs at any pricepoint in store. Yes, even the $1k+ computers in this store still didn't have docking, TPM, or expansion slots. Sigh.

In terms of profit, you have to go north of $700 before the store makes a dime on the hardware. The sub-$400 doorbusters lose money, and the expectation is to pick up profit on service plans, printers, and cases. Better still if you could sign them up for a store card at the same time--not only do they make money on financing, but they also get a bounty per application from the affiliated bank, as well as lower card processing fees per transaction. The tech people at the store I knew were relatively decent, but I still had no incentive to go to them myself, despite the employee discount, and ignoring that I could do the work myself.

The most painful part of the job was seeing old business-class machines get "traded in" (highway robbery) or plain-out recycled. What a waste.

Back to the original point, I'd far rather take 2-400USD and get a spiffy T60 or X60 (pref. with Intel graphics and SXGA+). It might take a bit of looking to get the right one, but with the right deal, there's no comparison to what you'll get for the same money new.

[RealBlackStuff]

The other week I picked up an X61T with SXGA+, 2GB RAM, 60GB HD (but no OS), extended battery and stylus for under $170.- shipped.
When I got the machine, it looked like it had never been used, not a mark on it!

[pianowizard]

In the last couple weeks, two or three $199 laptops have popped up at Best Buy and another chain (I forget which one). How many of you find these at least slightly tempting? I do!

[killer]

If it were possible to buy a quality product for a low price then we'd all be queueing up for it. What are the chances? Be realistic.

[ThinkRob]

In the last couple weeks, two or three $199 laptops have popped up at Best Buy and another chain (I forget which one). How many of you find these at least slightly tempting? I do!

I do, but only to pull the boards out and put them into a low-profile, low-heat encoding cluster.

It could be a pretty affordable way of doing it, especially if I sell the LCDs off...