In a dilemma here. T400 vs SL510 vs L420.

[THXpad]

Hi there,

I would like to get a laptop but I'm on a budget. I love the Thinkpads so I would like to get one.

So my options are:

T400 (demo unit, 14 days return, 12 months warranty): Intel Core2 Duo P8600, 2GB-RAM, 80GB HDD, 1440 x 900 Display, Intel X4500HD, Fingerprint-Reader, Bluetooth, no Webcam, UMTS ready, Windows 7 Professional (64 Bit)

SL510 (Outlet, 12 months warranty): Intel Core2 Duo T6570, 2GB-RAM, 160GB HDD, 1366 x 768 Display, Intel 4500MHD, no Fingerprint-Reader, Bluetooth, no Webcam, no UMTS, Windows 7 Professional (64 Bit)

L420 (demo unit, 14 days return, 12 months warranty): Intel Core i5 540M, 3GB-RAM, 320GB HDD, 1366 x 768, Display, Intel HD Graphics, Fingerprint-Reader, Bluetooth, Webcam, UMTS ready, Windows 7 Professional (64 Bit)

I can get the SL510 for basically the same price of the lower end laptops you see on the stores. The T400 is about 35 bucks cheaper than the SL510.

The L420 is 100-135 bucks more than SL510 and T400 respectively.

My dilemma is:

1-Is it better to get the newest and brand new low end laptop or an older demo unit Thinkpad?

2-Is it better to get a new L series or a much older T series? I always hear how L and SL series are not "real" Thinkpads and the keyboard is not as good. Besides we all know the T series is much better constructed.

3-Is the SL510 the sweet spot here considering it's not as old as the T400 but not as expensive as the L420 plus it has a larger screen? Although it is still not a T series.

I'm not too worried about the RAM or HDD size as I can cheaply upgrade those it seems. Which brings me to my next set of questions.

4-What is the max. RAM those models will take when running W7 64bit?

5-What is the largest HDD?

6-Would them take a SSD?

7-Is upgradding processor possible or even worth it in the case of the T400 and SL510?

Thanks in advance for your input. This will be my first Thinkpad, but I always liked them.

[RealBlackStuff]

Welcome to the forum.

The first question should be: what screen size do you want?
You have two 14.1" and one 15.4" widescreen machines in your selection.
Two of them have crappy low resolution of 1366x768. The T400 has a slightly better 1400x900 res.

Second q: what do you want to do with it?
For email/web browsing/Office, all machines are suitable.
But you will not be happy with any of them (as selected) because of the crappy resolution.
If you need to do number crunching, the L420 is the most powerful, followed by T400 and SL510.

Third q: what is your budget?
Your prices seem to vary, but it looks like up to $750.-
Look in our Marketplace forum first.
Here's a T510 with much better 'innards': http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=104153
Or a T420 (still with ~2 yrs. warranty): http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=103355
Or a T500 and W500 at great prices: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=99521
And others, just look around.

As to your dilemmas:
1) you'd need to physically see the machines (or get really good pictures) of the Demo machines.
Who gave the demos, did those machines get lugged around a lot?
Were they 'hammered on' by visitors (maybe little kids with ice cream on their grubby fingers) in a store? (the T400 is the sturdiest).

2) Give me a T (or an R) any time over an L or SL.

3) don't know the answer

4) AFAIK they will all take at least 8GB RAM

5) Largest 2.5" HD is currently 1TB

6) yes

7) T400: yes but not worth it.
SL510: probably yes (I only work with T/R/X models) but I wouldn't bother on that heap.

[underclocker]

Welcome to the forum!

I agree with RBS, you first need to narrow down your desiered resolution and LCD size. From there, you'll still find numerous choices. Some idea of budget would help, too.

To avoid dissatisfaction, I would stay away from HD LCD machines, unless you specifically like that low resolution.

Additionally, I'd decide upon the need for webcam or not. While in most cases (with newer machines) it's possible to add a webcam, it's not always easy or cost effective.

Since T400/T500 models sell from below $300 and up, there is no real need to consider the SL line, unless you're in the $200 range. I'd also consider the R400/R500 models before the SL line. Of course, great T61/R61 models are available from below $200.

The T400s is a great, premium option and they've been selling in the $300 to $400 range.

That being said, if you can stretch to a more current generation CPU model (i3, i5, i7), the T410/T510 models can be had in the $400 to $500 and up range. Either a T410 with WXGA+ or a T510 with HD+ LCD would be my top suggestion.

Lastly, the Lenovo Outlet often has excellent deals. Right now they have several (effectively new) T420 models with HD+ LCDs for $537. Tough to beat!

Eventually add an SSD.

[THXpad]

Thanks for the replies guys! Truly appreciated.

Welcome to the forum.

The first question should be: what screen size do you want?
You have two 14.1" and one 15.4" widescreen machines in your selection.
Two of them have crappy low resolution of 1366x768. The T400 has a slightly better 1400x900 res.

In terms of screen size, although 14" is a bit on the small size I think it would still be OK. I had a 17" laptop once and found myself wishing it would be more portable quite often. So I guess 15" would be the sweet spot. But beggars can't be choosers and 14" would also do. So screen size between the 14.1 and 15.4" doesn't really play a role in the decision I guess. Both are widescreen so it's fine.

About resolution, I had the impression that 1366x768 for a 14" was fine. I guess I'm wrong?
But yes, for the SL510, since it's 15.4" I guess it's a bit on the lowers side.

Second q: what do you want to do with it?
For email/web browsing/Office, all machines are suitable.
But you will not be happy with any of them (as selected) because of the crappy resolution.
If you need to do number crunching, the L420 is the most powerful, followed by T400 and SL510.

Well, I travel a lot and I just need a laptop to work on Excell, word, internet, watch videos and eventually some Photoshop and video editing work. I know that a media oriented laptop may be a better idea but I like the Thinkpads.

Third q: what is your budget?
Your prices seem to vary, but it looks like up to $750.-
Look in our Marketplace forum first.
Here's a T510 with much better 'innards': http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=104153
Or a T420 (still with ~2 yrs. warranty): http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=103355
Or a T500 and W500 at great prices: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=99521
And others, just look around.

My budget at the moment is the cheaper the better.
But the max. I could stretch is for the L420 and this would be really stretching. I just got me a new desktop on the top of the 2 I already had. So the laptop would be really just for travelling, which I do like 3-4 times a year, plus the eventual demo outside of the office in a meeting or something.

As to your dilemmas:
1) you'd need to physically see the machines (or get really good pictures) of the Demo machines.
Who gave the demos, did those machines get lugged around a lot?
Were they 'hammered on' by visitors (maybe little kids with ice cream on their grubby fingers) in a store? (the T400 is the sturdiest).

About looking at the market place or ebay, I was trying to avoid buying used. The machines I found all come with 12 months warranty and are from dealers.
But I can't physically see the machines because they are online dealers. I would have to check if I can get pictures from them.

7) T400: yes but not worth it.
SL510: probably yes (I only work with T/R/X models) but I wouldn't bother on that heap.

I thought it wouldn't be worth it to upgrade. I guess RAM upgrade and HDD swap is all I can do to increase performace. The HDDs are all 5400RPM. But I guess that would only do so much in the end. A slow processor is still a slow computer.

[THXpad]

I agree with RBS, you first need to narrow down your desiered resolution and LCD size. From there, you'll still find numerous choices. Some idea of budget would help, too.

Thanks! See my reply above.

To avoid dissatisfaction, I would stay away from HD LCD machines, unless you specifically like that low resolution.

Is that really that low resolution for a small 14.1" screen? I have never seen a 1920x1080/1200 14" computer screen. By HD I'm guessing you're talking "half HD" (1280x720) since the screens are 1366x768?
I mean, my 24" monitors are both 1920x1080 and they are fine. For a 14" I would have thought 1366x768 would be fine as well. Most PC monitors are not higher than Full HD 1920x1080. Or did I miss understand what you meant?

Additionally, I'd decide upon the need for webcam or not. While in most cases (with newer machines) it's possible to add a webcam, it's not always easy or cost effective.

It would be nice to have a webcam, but at the moment I don't really have a direct need for one. What could be the use of one when travelling, video calls?

Since T400/T500 models sell from below $300 and up, there is no real need to consider the SL line, unless you're in the $200 range.

Well all the machines I found cost more than that if you convert it to U.S. Dollars.

I'd also consider the R400/R500 models before the SL line. Of course, great T61/R61 models are available from below $200.

Well, all of those would be painfully slow, no? Since they are much older than the T400 or the SL510. I'm honestly asking since I really don't know how old they are.

The T400s is a great, premium option and they've been selling in the $300 to $400 range.

Yes, I have heard good things about the T400 and even that it blows the T420. I think the T420 is no longer a high end machine and you need a T420s if you want good quality. Never heard of a T400s though. But the one I found seems to be a normal T400. What is the difference?

That being said, if you can stretch to a more current generation CPU model (i3, i5, i7), the T410/T510 models can be had in the $400 to $500 and up range. Either a T410 with WXGA+ or a T510 with HD+ LCD would be my top suggestion.

The thing is I couldn't find any on dealers and I didn't want to risk buying used without warranties. The ones I'm looking at are supposed to be basically new and with few hours of operation. They are tested by the manufacturer and cleaned and come with 12 months warranty.

Lastly, the Lenovo Outlet often has excellent deals. Right now they have several (effectively new) T420 models with HD+ LCDs for $537. Tough to beat!

Yeah, but this is in the U.S. outlet I guess. The European one doesn't have that many options.

Thanks to both of you for the replies.

[THXpad]

Hey guys,

Do you have anything else to add now that more info has been given?

Thanks.

[RealBlackStuff]

You want a Mercedes to drive from Leopoldstadt to Landstrasse, whereas it would be much easier/faster on foot.
For your minimal needs I would recommend a good used X61 or X61s. It has a 12" 1024x768 LCD, but takes up to 8GB RAM and up to 1TB hard disk. On top of that it is lightweight and more than powerful enough for the next 3-4 years.
W7 runs great on it.

[THXpad]

Thanks. But I wasn't able to find one of those around here. So among the ones I mentioned on my list, which are the ones I could find, which one would you recommend?

The X60/61 seems to be just the light weight version of the T60 series, so I'm thinking it's as well built as the T-series?
In a quick research the main problem I found with the X60 is that it doesn't have an optical drive, which I would most likely need.

Also, I'm not sure my needs are as minimal as you mention. Playing HD video is something for example that my E6750 2.66Ghz base PC sometimes struggles with. Also Photoshop and video editing are quite demanding.

Thanks again.

[underclocker]

Your initial info did not include your location, so my comments re: pricing and the Lenovo Outlet are off by several thousand miles

Ruling out any impending visit to the U.S. or a friend that can help, I agree with RBS that you'd be fine with anything back to an X61. That would be the same vintage as R61 & T61, too. Realistically - and especially with an SSD, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between any R/T/X61, R/T/400/500, W500 or SL400/500/410/510. They were all 2nd or 3rd generation Core 2 Duos - all quite good. Dependent upon speed/cache, some 2nd generation C2D's were faster than 3rd generation C2Ds, as the speeds varied from 1.4GHz to around 3.0GHz.

IMHO, if you can't snag an i3 or i5 T410 or T510 (or L series), then it really doesn't matter which Core 2 Duo TP you buy. Just make sure to get the features you need/want - Bluetooth, DVD burner, N wifi, webcam, faster CPU, etc.

My only reservation about the L series on your list is the LCD resolution, HD is low (I'm assuming it has HD, not HD+, if HD+, then buy it!)

There are many great machines available in the forum marketplace, perhaps you can work something out there.

[THXpad]

Your initial info did not include your location, so my comments re: pricing and the Lenovo Outlet are off by several thousand miles

Sorry, I should have mentioned it. But my location was under my screen name to the left.

Ruling out any impending visit to the U.S. or a friend that can help, I agree with RBS that you'd be fine with anything back to an X61. That would be the same vintage as R61 & T61, too.

The thing is the lack of optical drive of the X60/61.
So are the X60/61and R-series built as well as the T-series?

Realistically - and especially with an SSD, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between any R/T/X61, R/T/400/500, W500 or SL400/500/410/510. They were all 2nd or 3rd generation Core 2 Duos - all quite good. Dependent upon speed/cache, some 2nd generation C2D's were faster than 3rd generation C2Ds, as the speeds varied from 1.4GHz to around 3.0GHz.

Great. Good to know.

IMHO, if you can't snag an i3 or i5 T410 or T510 (or L series), then it really doesn't matter which Core 2 Duo TP you buy. Just make sure to get the features you need/want - Bluetooth, DVD burner, N wifi, webcam, faster CPU, etc.

I was trying to stay away from SL and L-series machines after all I heard about them. A T410 or T510 are probably out of my budget. So If I want a T-series it may have to be a T400 or T500. I think this is the newest T-series that will fall within my budget.

My only reservation about the L series on your list is the LCD resolution, HD is low (I'm assuming it has HD, not HD+, if HD+, then buy it!)

When you guys are speaking of HD, are you talking about full 1920x1080? If so, was there any of these Thinkpads with such a high resolution in a 14" or 15" monitor? Normally that comes with larger 23" and up monitors for desktops.

[underclocker]

"HD" is anything but high definition, it's closer XGA, which was introduced in 1990, see info below.


Common Laptop Resolutions

XGA 1024 x 768
SXGA+ 1400 x 1050
UXGA 1600 x 1200

WXGA 1280 x 768 & 1280 x 800
WXGA+ 1440 x 900
WSXGA+ 1680 x 1050
WUXGA 1920 x 1200

HD 1366 x 768
HD+ 1600 x 900
FHD 1920 x 1080

[THXpad]

"HD" is anything but high definition, it's closer XGA, which was introduced in 1990, see info below.


Common Laptop Resolutions

XGA 1024 x 768
SXGA+ 1400 x 1050
UXGA 1600 x 1200

WXGA 1280 x 768 & 1280 x 800
WXGA+ 1440 x 900
WSXGA+ 1680 x 1050
WUXGA 1920 x 1200

HD 1366 x 768
HD+ 1600 x 900
FHD 1920 x 1080

Thanks underclocker!

That makes much more sense now when you say stay away from HD LCD machines because of the low resolutions. See, I come from the video editing world and when you said that, to me you meant stay away from 1920x1080. That wouldn't be low resolution at all. Much more clear now.

I just have a few more questions please. I promise I will quite after. It seems I may be asking stupid questions since the participation on the thread has been "low".

But just a few more. My questions are:

1. I have pretty much giving up on buying any SL series and also L series, even a new L420. But I just wanted to confirm something. I know the T-series is considered great and a real Thinkpad. Are the R and X series the same in terms of built quality, having a real Thinkpad keyboard and all the things that make the T-series great?

Realistically - and especially with an SSD, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between any R/T/X61, R/T/400/500, W500 or SL400/500/410/510. They were all 2nd or 3rd generation Core 2 Duos - all quite good. Dependent upon speed/cache, some 2nd generation C2D's were faster than 3rd generation C2Ds, as the speeds varied from 1.4GHz to around 3.0GHz.

2. I just wanted to confirm a couple of things here. So will any of those be fine playing full HD video? Like I said, sometimes my E6750 2.66Ghz base PC struggles with it and will play very jerky. 720p is fine though, but full 1080p can be a problem.
Also, what about running programs like Adobe Premiere, Adobe After effects and Photoshop?

IMHO, if you can't snag an i3 or i5 T410 or T510 (or L series), then it really doesn't matter which Core 2 Duo TP you buy. Just make sure to get the features you need/want - Bluetooth, DVD burner, N wifi, webcam, faster CPU, etc.

3. Well, unless I can find a killer deal on a T410 or T510 it seems I will have to settle down for a Core Duo machine. As long as they are fine with playing full HD and running Premiere, After Effects and Photoshop I will be fine I guess. In terms of features, I have for example the Fingerprint reader pretty high on my list. Does it work as intended and is it worth it to have it as one of the decision maker features when buying a machine? I just thought when you travel, have meetings in restaurants etc having this security feature would be a good idea.

4. Coming back to the T41/510. In case I could find a killer deal on one, were they still made as well as the prior T-series or did they drop in quality like the modern/brand new T-series? Honestly, even if I could afford a brand new T420 I guess I would still just buy a T410 or T510. I heard the T420 has considerably dropped in quality when compared to the T410, T510, T400, T500, T60 etc and can no longer be considered a "real" Thinkpad.



Thanks once more.

[underclocker]

I cannot comment on peformance with those apps, as I do not use them. However, it does seem that a more powerful graphics engine would benefit you.

Regarding quality, I may be an easy grader, but I feel all models discussed, other than the SL line (with which I have little direct experience), are well made and deserving of the ThinkPad label.

The rubberized cosmetic finish on the highest lines (most X, all T, all W models) is generally considered most desirable. However, I have argued that the R-series (with their plasticy top finish, although 14" WS R61's have rubberized finish) are quite well made and rugged, too. Most Edge and SL ThinkPad lines have noticeably lower quality plastics/materials, IMHO. (That being said, I've been using an AMD CPU Edge 15 for over 1 year as a home music server, it's been a flawless performer.)

T410, T420, T510, T520, W510 & W520 models are all very well made and solid. The T400s, T410s, T420s models are well made, too, but need more care due to their thinness.

LCD quality has been an issue with regard to colors and viewing angles, on some models (Google and the forum search are your friends). However, since Lenovo sources panels from various makers for most machines, winding up with a better one is a bit of luck. I'd advise cross-referencing LCD panel part numbers with reviews, prior to purchasing, if that is a big concern.

[THXpad]

Is WXGA+ 1440 x 900 resolution so bad for a T400? It seems this is the highest that I can find on them. If there were higher resolution ones they seem to be pretty rare.
Also, I'm thinking 1440 x 900 is 16:10 rather than 16:9?

I decided to go with T400 instead of T500 because it's more portable.

[underclocker]

That's the highest resolution offered by Lenovo on a T400.

Now you get to choose LED or CCFL, webcam or not, Bluetooth or not, Intel vs. switchable Intel/ATI graphics, 4, 6, 7 or 9 cell battery (only the 4 cell is flush-fitting), which CPU, etc., etc., etc.

FYI, the R400 is nearly identical - 1/8" thicker, same cosmetic finish. Maybe less money.

Have fun.

[THXpad]

Thanks. The one I'm looking at has a P8400 2.26Ghz Core duo.
Not sure about Intel vs. switchable Intel/ATI graphics, but it says Intel X4500HD. Also no idead about LED or CCFL, which is best?
It's a 6 Cell battery and it has webcam, fingerprint reader and bluetooth.