Thinkpads Forum

really they should what a kick [censored] combo that will be
imagine a TURION MT-34 in a IBM t43 chasis

that thing would fly right off the shelves

something like this
14.1 sxga+ IPS - non-glossy screen
4.9 lbs max
turion mt-34
1gb pc3200 cl2
100gb 5400 rpm segate disk
x700/6600 with 128 dedicated gddr3
bluetooth 2.0
IBM Atheros a/b/g
DVD dual layer burner
4 usb 2..0 ports
firewire
sd-card reader
4 hour battery life


THE SAD PART is that all these components are available today but not in one notebook

closest is the IBM T43 i guess

...

The battery life would also suck. The Turion MT-34 is supposed to have a 25 watt TDP but all the reviews I have seen of Turion notebooks suggest that the battery life of the platform is still inferior to Centrino.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1786093,00.asp

Granted that test is a bit unfair, as the Dell unit has a 9-cell battery instead of a 6-cell battery, and a 5400 RPM drive instead of a 4200 RPM drive. However, I don't think upgrading the Acer to those specs would allow it to catch up to the Dell.

An IPS screen eats a lot of power. An x700 or GeForce 6600 would likewise increase power consumption. And then there's the problem of keeping all of this cool in a 1-1.2" thick chasis the size of the 14" T4x.

If such a machine were possible, it would have 2 hours battery life, weigh at least 5.5 pounds due to extra cooling equipment, and cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $4000. This is not a machine that businesses would buy.

Now I could see Falcon Northwest or Alienware offering such a notebook for all the gamers out there

Battery life of turion is 3:15 with a six cell battery. The reason is because of the crystal bite display same as IPS. So that takes care of ur two problems namely IPS and battery life. Another reason is that it ships with a ML-34 which is 35 watts and not the MT-34 is 25 Watts.

Another reason for poor battery life is that Acer goofed with a SIS chipset.
That is second grade chipset. Wait for a ATI or nvidia solution to come.

Video power consumption of the x700 is not that much higher than the current 9600 found in the t42. the reason is that the x700 and later GPUs are made on finer grade of silicon i.e. 11um fab process while the older generation was 13um.

As per cost, then if you might not have noticed but the AMD solution has always been cheaper than a intel.

you currently have no valid point against my machine.

the pricing would still be pretty high for a 14.1 laptop.

Just because a chipset is made by SiS does not mean it is inferior to nVidia, VIA, or ATi. You said "wait for nVidia or ATI" chipsets. If they aren't out yet, the components don't exist for OEMs to use, do they?

The Acer's display is *less* bright than the Dell. I do not believe it is a crytal brite or IPS display.

A straight shrink to 0.11u does not in itself mean lower power consumption. A 0.13u Pentium 4 eats less power than a 0.09u Pentium 4, for example. The higher clockspeed of the x700 as well as the increased number of transistors can easily offset the shrink.

So far the x700 seems to be used mostly in 6-7 pound class machines.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1 ... 377,00.asp

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDe ... iate=yahoo

In my experience, it would be extremely difficult to build the machine you describe with today's components. Now the fact that the gaming machine companies like Falcon-Northwest and Alienware haven't built such a machine doesn't mean it is impossible, but it is strong circumstantial evidence that it may be impractical. After all, these companies build the $4000 machines that gamers want.

K. Eng wrote:Just because a chipset is made by SiS does not mean it is inferior to nVidia, VIA, or ATi. You said "wait for nVidia or ATI" chipsets. If they aren't out yet, the components don't exist for OEMs to use, do they?

The Acer's display is *less* bright than the Dell. I do not believe it is a crytal brite or IPS display.

A straight shrink to 0.11u does not in itself mean lower power consumption. A 0.13u Pentium 4 eats less power than a 0.09u Pentium 4, for example. The higher clockspeed of the x700 as well as the increased number of transistors can easily offset the shrink.

So far the x700 seems to be used mostly in 6-7 pound class machines.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1 ... 377,00.asp

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDe ... iate=yahoo

In my experience, it would be extremely difficult to build the machine you describe with today's components. Now the fact that the gaming machine companies like Falcon-Northwest and Alienware haven't built such a machine doesn't mean it is impossible, but it is strong circumstantial evidence that it may be impractical. After all, these companies build the $4000 machines that gamers want.

u like to skirt issues


1. and 2. acer's website says it is a crystal brite and it uses the 35 W ML-30 not the 25W MT-34 . To add insult to ur injury it has a 4 cell battery.

http://www.acerpanam.com/synapse/forms/ ... =1&pupv=pu


3. the t43 chasis was designed to take a x600 ( we shall see soon)
see other thread in t series forum

4. yes it does SIS have long been indentified as more of a value solution than what u would find in IBMs. Ati is already out with their solution
http://www.ati.com/products/Radeonxpress200m/index.html


5. and these boutique notebooks you are talking about depend on host of taiwanese manufacturers for whitebooks to paint. read as asus, uniwill, winstron, clevo,arima etc. these guys are already onto the turion. so u will soon see these boutique crap painters coming out with such machines.

look here http://www.arima.com.tw/
look for something called the w622-dk8x
and then proceed to remove your foot from your mouth

Insulting people is uncalled for. Consider this a warning.

6. cut out the $4000 crap


Just hoping that a quality company like IBM can come out with something like this not discussing if it is possible or not!

pwned!!! <---- not a good thing to say considering you didn't prove anything

a_d_y_a,

First of all stop being rude. Especially for a new poster, trying to play it know-it-all is not good practice.

Second, you start by stating what you would like to exist and then try to convince everyone that the manufacturers are making a huge mistake by not releasing such a machine, since they could, and that it would "fly right off the shelves". One would think that there is a tiny possibility that they are smarter than you.

Turion is a new chip. Brand new. No serious manufacturer (I'm not talking about Alienware, I am talking about serious manufacturers) will immediately release a notebook with a chip that has radical changes from what existed so far, especially if that manufacturer has NEVER used AMD chips before in their notebooks and has NOT make it known at any time that they plan to do so.

You make some valid claims about power consumption, but then again you fail to justify WHY should we rush and buy a Turion based notebook. As far as I have seen, no application makes much use of the 64-bit technology, and the P-M is more than capable of competing even with desktop 64-bit AMDs. And Turion is not nearly as cheap as its desktop siblings.

Finally, the first thing that a notebook should offer is stability, as one cannot easily fiddle with it in case something is wrong. You are essentialy listing the latest PC components there are, in which case the probability of something going wrong is much higher than with tested hardware (this is one of the reasons that IBM has such good reputation on the market)

In any case, you have every right to dream of a machine that would be perfect for you, and I wish to you every luck in getting one. However, let me repeat that being rude will not get you anywhere, at least not in this forum.

Stavros

edit: just noticed the final word in your post...not very mature. Simply by googling Turion 64, one of the first articles I found is hoe the chip gets "pwned" or whatever by the Pentium-M....

http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content ... n64&page=8

...

A few points:

1. and 2. In the link you posted, under "LCD Properties," it says that Crystal Brite is optional. Note that 2 of the panel options do not have Crystal Brite. There's nothing to be gleeful about there.

Also note that the 4-cell battery has estimated battery life at "1.5 hours." I am guessing that the unit that PC Magazine tested had a larger 8-cell (they didn't say, but I find it very unlikely that the unit lasted 3 hours on a 4-cell unit).

3. The T43 can take an x600 or FireGL T2, but this does not automatically mean that the X700 will fit without more exensive cooling. I don't remember off the top of my head, but the x700 has 2x the pixel pipelines and much more geometry processing hardware.

4. You cannot say that just because a product is identified as "budget" that it is a poor performer. AMD Athlon was much cheaper than Pentium 4 for much of recent history, yet I don't think people would say that Athlon was a worse product because it was cheaper.

5. The Arima w622 looks very nice, but it's still above your weight target of 4.9 pounds.

6. Nothing to address - not an argument.

I don't disagree with you that the components exist, but hitting that sub-5 pound level is going to be difficult with current technology.

Let me just add this in...

No respectable gamer would buy a laptop for gaming alone. Yes, there are people who buy Alienware laptops...but, by no means are these serious gaming machines...

Current laptop technologies don't allow them to be useful enough in a gaming environment. CRT screens will always beat LCD screens in terms of performance. Also, video cards for most laptops won't run doom3. Now, I understand games are made for technologies that aren’t out yet. So, if a laptop doesn't run doom3 very well now. How is it going to perform in a year? Spending 4grand on system that's gonna be almost obsolete for a serious gamer it isn't worth it. You could build 2 desktop systems for that price that could run doom3. Again I'm using doom3 as an example as it's prob the most advanced game graphically and would put the most stress on the system game wise.

I could go on but, at this point it's almost pointless...

And yes I know there are gamers that would buy this...but, no one's gonna start a business on it or make an amount of money that would make it logical to do so. Even as an added product. Except, maybe, alienware. But, then again from my understanding their laptops aren’t as quality as they used to be.

Just my 2 cents.

Lee

apologies for being rude

1. turion is cheaper than its pentium-m cousin

2. even a x600 would do instead of a x700 i guess

3. some people do not use windows hence the 64 bit part

4. it is not about gaming - it is about having enough firepower to last the ibm warranty

5. agreed the arima is 5+ pounds but so is a ibm 15". I bet you could lower the weight by switching to a 14.1" screen

6. not all of us like supporting a monopoly namely intel

7. stravos than you for catching my words. but please get my drift.

8. turion is not a new chip it is the good old amd desktop version gated down to save power and an addition of sse3. so technically it is older than DOTHAN.

9. do not get me started why manufacturers have not used amd processors. ( google - intel - japan - ftc )

10. you do not have to rush to buy a turion. there are plenty others who can make full use of it.

11. sincerest apologies for the "pwned"remark! i got carried away

12. please refer to other forums for validity of gmaepc benchies. i have seen them a few days ago. they prove nothin. i suggest waiting for more mature reviewers to handle the turion and that too in a laptop. (they tested it in adesktop)

13. Alienware is not a computer manufacturer!!!!!

14. batuta i did not suggest using the same motherboard as the current t43. of course u need a new mobo. that is where ati and nvidia come in.

15. of course you would need new drivers tooo. comon batuta

16. money savings can make a strong and serious business case. expect turion counterparts to run much much cheaper. esp with memory prices.

17. Crytal brite is optional across the 5000 series but the 5002 they tested has a crystal brite for sure

18. could be the 6 cell they tested too

19. please show me a sis chipset outperforming a nvidia or via chipset then i will accept ur points about SIs

20. what is with 4 grand and alienware?

21. turion is all round good chip not just for gamers. they could potenially put a x300 again and make it cheaper for business folk. Turions can kick [censored] in workstations also. ( note opteron heritage)

22. it is not about gamin

23. what is with alienware?

24.thanks all it has been great.

having a large number of posts does not prove anything

it does give u some credibility and a feel of the forum.

donot judge people over the number of their posts

i will accept all remarks on my rudeness and apologise for them

but do not judge people by the numebr of their posts. rather judge them by their rude comments.

Ok, you're forgiven, even if I still don't agree with you

K. Eng wrote:Ok, you're forgiven, even if I still don't agree with you

you dont have to agree
IBM has to.


thanx

a_d_y_a wrote:having a large number of posts does not prove anything

it does give u some credibility and a feel of the forum.

donot judge people over the number of their posts

i will accept all remarks on my rudeness and apologise for them

but do not judge people by the numebr of their posts. rather judge them by their rude comments.

Oh, not at all! As I said, a rude first comment doesn't mean anything at all, just gives a bad impression on the poster. On the contrary, sometimes too many posts is too much blabbing! Apology accepted, matter resolved!

Stavros

All kinds of good stuff here, sorry I missed it.

K. Eng wrote:An IPS screen eats a lot of power. An x700 or GeForce 6600 would likewise increase power consumption. And then there's the problem of keeping all of this cool in a 1-1.2" thick chasis the size of the 14" T4x.
If such a machine were possible, it would have 2 hours battery life, weigh at least 5.5 pounds due to extra cooling equipment, and cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $4000. This is not a machine that businesses would buy.

This is pretty accurate. Until we have detailed benchies revealing how much power a Turion notebook uses, it is fair to assume that it will use more power than a Centrino notebook. Intel designed their mobo's & wireless cards to use minimum power; Turion will not. Turion's will use third-party mobo's & wireless cards that probably do not have the same power consumption design put into them as Intel has. With more power draw comes more heat. The 14" T43 already has some issues with cooling, running 5-10C hotter than a 14" T42 on average. I don't think a thin 14" notebook would do well with a hotter CPU. Businesses don't need 64-bit computing on the road and I doubt they will care over the couple hundred dollars difference in price per unit, if its even that. Intel recently released meager price drops on Centrino packages with bigger ones rumored in July.

K. Eng wrote:Just because a chipset is made by SiS does not mean it is inferior to nVidia, VIA, or ATi. You said "wait for nVidia or ATI" chipsets. If they aren't out yet, the components don't exist for OEMs to use, do they?

I agree that SiS does not make inferior chipsets, but your last statement is incorrect. The ATI XPress200M chipset that is already out for A64's & Semprons will have out of the box support for Turion. I forget which models will be using it, but OEM's already have plans to use the ATI chipset. Wait, I think Arima (an ODM actually) will be using it. If nvidia would jump in the arena, I think we would then see things really take off. I like nvidia's products a lot, but the competition alone would be very beneficial to consumers.

K. Eng wrote:A straight shrink to 0.11u does not in itself mean lower power consumption. A 0.13u Pentium 4 eats less power than a 0.09u Pentium 4, for example.

The only 130nm P4 that uses less power than the current 90nm P4's is a Northwood, the old P4"C". That is not a proper comparison. If they took a Northwood and went from 130nm-->90nm, there would be a noticeable drop in heat/power usage. But instead they went from a Northwood to the toaster oven Prescott. Prescott has many more transistors and is less efficient, despite the die shrink it still draws 100W+. Die shrink = less power consumption IF all other factors stay the same.

K. Eng wrote:In my experience, it would be extremely difficult to build the machine you describe with today's components. Now the fact that the gaming machine companies like Falcon-Northwest and Alienware haven't built such a machine doesn't mean it is impossible, but it is strong circumstantial evidence that it may be impractical. After all, these companies build the $4000 machines that gamers want.

Right on

PCMag clearly did not use the 4-cell in their tests and get 3:15. That's a 6 or 8-cell, guaranteed.

1. turion is cheaper than its pentium-m cousin Point, but Intel has rumored large price cuts in July

2. even a x600 would do instead of a x700 i guess Repeat after me: IBM doesn't care about gaming performance. They either care about 2D performance or workstation/CAD performance. Repeat.

3. some people do not use windows hence the 64 bit part Very true. Turion has value there, but most businessed don't care about 64-bit in a mobile form. If they do, HP already has Linux laptops. Dunno if they're 64-bit tho.

4. it is not about gaming - it is about having enough firepower to last the ibm warranty Huh?

5. agreed the arima is 5+ pounds but so is a ibm 15". I bet you could lower the weight by switching to a 14.1" screen And increase the heat. The size of a notebook helps determine power dissipation.

6. not all of us like supporting a monopoly namely intel Agreed, but when Intel is owning the mobile market what LOGICAL choice does a large company have? Centrino is the best technology for laptops to come about in quite a while. AMD isn't introducing anything revolutionary, just a challenger is all.

8. turion is not a new chip it is the good old amd desktop version gated down to save power and an addition of sse3. so technically it is older than DOTHAN. And?

9. do not get me started why manufacturers have not used amd processors. ( google - intel - japan - ftc ) And that is reason for IBM to switch from the highly successful Centrino technology to AMD's unproven and more than likely less practical technology?

12. please refer to other forums for validity of gmaepc benchies. i have seen them a few days ago. they prove nothin. i suggest waiting for more mature reviewers to handle the turion and that too in a laptop. (they tested it in adesktop) Agreed

13. Alienware is not a computer manufacturer!!!!! Last time I checked, Alienware buys OEM parts and sticks them in their custom cases, supports those machines, and even includes custom software. I call that a computer manufacturer.

14. batuta i did not suggest using the same motherboard as the current t43. of course u need a new mobo. that is where ati and nvidia come in.

15. of course you would need new drivers tooo. comon batuta

16. money savings can make a strong and serious business case. expect turion counterparts to run much much cheaper. esp with memory prices. Much much cheaper is a little overboard. Yes, DDR mem is dirt cheap and DDR2 isn't. But DDR2 prices have come down also and manufacturers are ramping up production for it. The CPU's won't be THAT huge of a price difference. And if a company is considering THinkpads for their mobile workforce, what makes you think they want to consider saving a couple hundred bucks for something that will most likely not perform as well?

18. could be the 6 cell they tested too I agree, maybe even 8-cell

19. please show me a sis chipset outperforming a nvidia or via chipset then i will accept ur points about SIs In laptops performance isn't the primary concern. Hence why nvidia & ATI don't release mobile GPU drivers for better performance (that and configuration issues of course). Stability and power consumption is the name of the game in notebooks.

21. turion is all round good chip not just for gamers. they could potenially put a x300 again and make it cheaper for business folk. Turions can kick [censored] in workstations also. ( note opteron heritage) It is a generally good chip, but so is the Pentium M. And the Pentium M is proven, with existing contracts setup, and will more than likely have better batt life.

--My $0.03 (Yes, 3 cents 'cuz it was so long)

fbrdphreak,
your total basis for arguements is

1. pentium-m is proven - so was the p4 till the hammer came along. so proven does not mean much.
2. it is faster - nothing here too
3. it is cooler - this is still up for grabs
4. it is cheaper - currently it is not


unfortunately today you have no objective benchmarks that can prove these claims neither do i have any to negate them. we might just have to wait.


and in my definition alienware is a reseller not a manufacturer. they have no control or say in the design specs or quality of their laptops. they just rebadge clevos, asus and uniwill lappies.

did you know how much faster all engineering applications will run wiht sse3 and 64 bits. that makes a strong case for a workstation laptop. read CAD/MATLAB/dbm/fea


as far as making a business case-- a superior and cheaper product will always win. we will just have to wait. AMD has just entered the mobile market in a serious manner. Let us wait.