Thinkpads Forum

totally agree with "thinklight" Navck, that little thing comes very handly alot of times and more useful than most other gadgets companies stick into laptop. I didn't even know thinkpad can do hotswap hard drive, on linux mine just freezes even If I take CD out, I expect this HP to behave the same. browser back/forward, I don't know, If you like it as much as I like trackpoint, thats a valid point.

K.Eng I don't understand what point you'r trying to make. If you need a 14" in the first place, than this one should be out of the question, and IMO 14" thinkpads are far juicier than any other 14" will ever try to be :/

Actually go to stop hardware, pull that weird that that pushes the tab out, pull the tab out... Insert harddrive/optical drive
You're ready
Repeat the stop hardware/pull tab and etc process to hotswap, its like having a USB harddrive, but no worry of cable being ripped off if its pulled away.

runixd wrote:I so feel your pain, I was trying to find an answer to this question for the past week myself,

Thanks a lot

>>"What we miss here is a thinkpad user, who has actually touched it and used it, to give a real oppinion."

In a few words, you're saying what I think !

I've used my dad's T30 when I was real young
I have a friend who has an R52
I would say they're quite solid... And the R52 apparently hit a car door during a tight turn and still works

I have touched and used the NC6230 and NC8230 recently and they feel like very solid notebook computers. Believe it or not, I think they come very close to the Thinkpad lineup. The keyboard is reasonable, and the case is very sturdy. Plus, I think the finish that HP used is better than the scratch prone Thinkpad finish.

HP added a few new features such as their Mobile Data Protection System which seems to be rather good at protecting the hard drive. (http://www-8.ibm.com/au/newsawards/pdf/ ... ection.pdf) HP also installed their keyboard slightly below the height of the palm rest (Panel Protection System) which prevents the keyboard or trackpoint from hitting the screen. Furthermore, they built in an ambiant light sensor which seems to be pretty effective (though I find that it is a little dark).

The only thing that bothered me was that the fan always was on with the new HP notebooks, but it sounds like the new IBM T43s are the same way. HP has come very close to Lenovo/IBM, enough so that if my Thinkpad doesn't arrive in another week, I'll serious consider ordering one of the new HP NC6230 or NC8230.

IAmTheEvilest wrote: HP added a few new features such as their Mobile Data Protection System which seems to be rather good at protecting the hard drive. (http://www-8.ibm.com/au/newsawards/pdf/ ... ection.pdf)

Wow, pretty worthless testing methodology unfortunately. Only one laptop tested for each brand?

The data protection system isn't as good as the one on the ThinkPad. I read the white paper on it, and it apparently only parks the HDD heads when the display is closed. There isn't any motion sensor that will protect from random falls while the notebook is being used.

emorphien wrote:

IAmTheEvilest wrote: HP added a few new features such as their Mobile Data Protection System which seems to be rather good at protecting the hard drive. (http://www-8.ibm.com/au/newsawards/pdf/ ... ection.pdf)

Wow, pretty worthless testing methodology unfortunately. Only one laptop tested for each brand?

K. Eng wrote:The data protection system isn't as good as the one on the ThinkPad. I read the white paper on it, and it apparently only parks the HDD heads when the display is closed. There isn't any motion sensor that will protect from random falls while the notebook is being used.

emorphien wrote:Wow, pretty worthless testing methodology unfortunately. Only one laptop tested for each brand?

Interesting to know, thanks for the info. I guess no tests were done open vs closed or a lot of other things.

I hope they got a refund for those tests, or they were free. I would never pay to have such an imcomplete test performed.

IAmTheEvilest wrote:I have touched and used the NC6230 and NC8230 recently and they feel like very solid notebook computers. Believe it or not, I think they come very close to the Thinkpad lineup. The keyboard is reasonable, and the case is very sturdy. Plus, I think the finish that HP used is better than the scratch prone Thinkpad finish.

HP added a few new features such as their Mobile Data Protection System which seems to be rather good at protecting the hard drive. (http://www-8.ibm.com/au/newsawards/pdf/ ... ection.pdf) HP also installed their keyboard slightly below the height of the palm rest (Panel Protection System) which prevents the keyboard or trackpoint from hitting the screen. Furthermore, they built in an ambiant light sensor which seems to be pretty effective (though I find that it is a little dark).

The only thing that bothered me was that the fan always was on with the new HP notebooks, but it sounds like the new IBM T43s are the same way. HP has come very close to Lenovo/IBM, enough so that if my Thinkpad doesn't arrive in another week, I'll serious consider ordering one of the new HP NC6230 or NC8230.

Thanx alot, great input. Just what I was looking for.
As for comparing papers on protection etc, I'm not going to read that and argue, If you drop your laptop while working on it, then it maybe important, but it seems to me this is as useful as second pcmcia slot, protection while currying laptop is infinitally more important.

HP basically shock mounted their hard drive and connected it directly to the chassis. It is a much more basic and simplier solution than the IBM's accelerometer approach. I think that HP's idea was to have the chassis absorb most of the shock and reduce the forces transferred to the hard drive itself.

When my friend cracked open the hard drive panel, I could see that HP mounted their hard drive differently. Basically, on the bottom of the computer, you remove a relatively large door (like upgrading the ram) and there you see another metal case that the hard drive is mounted to. Remove the screw that secures the hard drive case from the chassis and then remove several screws that connect the HD case from the hard drive. Overall, I think it is a smart way to connect the hard drive to the chassis, better than most solutions that other manufacturers use. At the very least, it is better than Dell's "Strike Zone" rubber pads.

I have to agree that the test sample was probably not enough to prove very much. However, the test was done while the hard disks were accessing data which is when they they are most venerable. The HP didn't park the heads in the hard drive as it was accessing data; the testing company said that they disabled that feature. I couldn't find this test anywhere on the HP website though, you might have noticed that I took this off of the IBM AU website...

I am not going to say that HP is better than Lenovo/IBM, but I am not going to say the converse either. I think that both companies have come out with some very competent machines that are likely to serve their customers well. HP made it clear in a press release when they released these machines that they were going after IBM customers. I vaguely remember that they said that they felt this time of uncertainity (because of the the IBM/Lenovo deal) was their chance to "recapture" their market share.

Overall, HP pretty much copied quite a few features from the Thinkpads. First of all, it is a nice solid dark color, a color that I personally find more attractive than business black. One advantage about the finish that HP used is that it doesn't show fingerprints very well and the oils from our hands also do not show up very clearly on the palmrest. HP mounted the WLAN antennas on the top of the screen. HP also used a magnessium alloy lid and chassis.

In addition, the HP NC6230 does have a few advantages over the Lenovo T43. First of all, it has that ambient light sensor. Plus, it also has a smart card reader in addition to a SD card reader. In addition, the pointing stick will never touch the screen since the keyboard is lower than the palm rests; the palmrest doesn't creak nor does it scratch easily. Furthermore, the keyboard has all of the keys in the right place, feels pretty good (if a bit clicky), and also includes a Windows key. HP also managed to stick in 3 USB ports albeit at the expense of a parallel port. You can also pop out the Multibay drive with just one action (just push on one side and the drive pops out). The battery also charges faster. In terms of performance, both units perform about the same.

Your probably already thinking that I am trying to start a flame war already, that is if you have read this far. I am not. Personally, I feel that Lenovo/IBM also has a very good product and that it also has many advantages over the HP that I have just mentioned. IBM's active protection system is most likely superior to HP's shock mounted hard drive protection system. And IBM still has a better feeling keyboard, even if it is missing a few keys. The trackpoint is still more accurate than the pointing stick, and IBM also put in a scroll button. The T43 have the ExpressCard slot while the HP doesn't, and Lenovo/IBM has more accessories available for the modular bay. Lenovo/IBM service is better. Then there is the ThinkLight... etc.

Competition is a good thing, it helps bring about innovation. I am sure that since HP has gotten so much better now, Lenovo will have to continue to innovate in order to keep its market share. That is good for everyone, since then we will be able to purchase better products at (hopefully) lower prices.

Just as some disclosure, the majority of my computers have been HPs, however I still own two Dells and I still have one very old IBM X20. I have never needed any service on any of my HPs or my only IBM. But my most recent Dell required 3 onsite service calls in the first three months of ownership, they had to replace my motherboard, hard drive, and my RAM. I am starting to get RAM errors again now, so I'll be requiring another service call on the Dell again. No bad feelings about any of them really though, since my service calls have been rather pleasant.

I do have a Thinkpad on order, that is if Lenovo ever gets around to making it... It is still in "processing." If it was a Dell, it probably would have been in the packing stage already. Only if Lenovo learned how to manage inventory like Dell...

I wouldn't worry about starting a flame war

Although this is a ThinkPad site, I don't believe that people here are blindly loyal to the brand. I call them as I see them. ThinkPads are great machines, but there's no denying that other companies can come up with very stiff competition.

IAmTheEvilest wrote: Your probably already thinking that I am trying to start a flame war already, that is if you have read this far. I am not. Personally, I feel that Lenovo/IBM also has a very good product and that it also has many advantages over the HP that I have just mentioned.

Also, I love thinkpad myself, but when I first looked at nw8240 I thought "They FINALLY got it, perfect thinkpad with HP badge on". If you consider the fact that nw8240 has:
-widescreen
...
If someone tells me this is not what you'd love IBM to release, instead of 3 year old 14"/15" design, then I'd be interested to know why not.

Well, I chose the t43p precisely because of its 3 year old 15" design. I love the high resolution of the UXGA screen. The 15"4 widescreen has less area than the old-fashioned 15". In terms of pixel count, the WXGA has less pixels, the WUXGA has more but the fonts a just too small (90% compared to the UXGA). In fact, the "widescreen" is "shortscreen" because it reduces the vertical sze by 10%. I really like to have a whole page on my screen without the need of scrolling. The width is less important to me.

Another alternative is a 17" WUXGA but they are all glossy.

Other than that, I would not mind to get an HP or Dell. One of the computers I am using is a 4 year and 3 months old Dell Inspiron 8000, used at least 4-5 hours every day, sitting directly on the couch without any cooling pad. I had to replace the hinges after 3 1/2 years of use, that was all. Ironically, the LCD and the hard drive are IBM. My wife's HP laptop gets constant abuse (rendering movies at 100% CPU load for 8 hours!) and never needed repair.

I've owned a few ThinkPads in the past, and recently purchased an entry-level HP business notebook - the nx6100. I only needed a basic notebook for travel, and so far it meets my requirements well. It's only a 1.4GHz Celeron M processor, but for my needs it does the job. And, all of the features are quite well done, and seems to have very decent build quality.

The built-in 802.11g Broadcom wireless seems to work very well. I have a four level home, and the wireless router is located on the main (ground) level. I can completely roam about the house, floor to floor, and have excellent signal strength.

Overall, I am very pleased with the hardware with one exception: the keyboard is not as nice as the ThinkPad keyboard. One item, however, I am not as well pleased: HP's rebate program! If it were only a few dollars, it would be no big deal, but there was a $150 rebate with the purchase of the nx6100. And, after four months plus, I am still waiting. I for one would like to see this industry, or the marketplace, rid itself of this sales incentive. I've had too many bad experiences.

A slight correction to my above post . . . the notebook is in the nx6100-series, but it's actually a nx6110. And, the fan cycles on and off, not continuous as per a previous post regarding another HP business notebook. Although it's a Celeron M CPU, it's one of the latest versions with a large cache, and performs frankly very well. The fastest tower I have here is a 2.4GHz Intel P4 with 1GB RAM running WinXP Pro, and for most applications I use, the nx6110 with 768MB and 40GB/5,400RPM HD is more than adequate in comparison. I still like my ThinkPad's keyboard feel better though! One interesting thing: the top has the "HP" logo, but on the bezel near the right upper-edge of the screen is: Compaq nx6110.

Got my T43
I love the Thinklight, sometimes we like dark enviorments, but we don't exactly memorize where are F5 keys are...
Its also great to read books while your Thinkpad is starting up.
Hotswapping is nice. I don't exactly have a use for it... Yet
The Multiburner I have supports DVD-RAM I think (A plus!)
I have a nice built in Antenna which my dad's Tobshiba cannot get the same ammount of signal off from (He gets about 20%, I get 85% in the same area, even with a defective router... Can we say 6KBP/s maximum transfer speed)
IBM software is lovely. Especially their keyboard/Ultranav configuration and wireless parts...

I haven't seen or touched the HP machine yet... But I'm slightly not impressed by the ones I see at the local Bestbuy (Aka 3000 dollar ones)
The silver is too bright. It reminds me of biege computers (Ugly). Their keyboards are weak feeling. Plus the body its self can flex/disform slightly if you push hard enough (Not on my T43!)
One of the other tests is pushing behind the LCD Screen. Distortion for about everything there except the Powerbooks. My T43 has no problems at all...

For most of us here on this thread, ThinkPads are preferable to practically any other notebook. That being said, I don't think Best Buy, etc. offer the HP business notebooks series, rather they only sell the consumer HP's models. I believe HP business notebooks are only available on HP's business website, or through VAR distributors, not the normal retail channels such as Best Buy, Circuit City, Fry's, etc.

The consumer grade HP/Compaq stuff at BestBuy is generally cheap junk. As w9cw pointed out, you generally can't get the good HP stuff from a brick & mortar store. All of the business line models are sold online.

That being said, university bookstores sometimes have demo models. That's how I learned about ThinkPads way back when. I still remember sitting down with a T30 and thinking that it was the best [censored] notebook I'd ever touched...

Navck wrote: I haven't seen or touched the HP machine yet... But I'm slightly not impressed by the ones I see at the local Bestbuy (Aka 3000 dollar ones)
The silver is too bright. It reminds me of biege computers (Ugly). Their keyboards are weak feeling. Plus the body its self can flex/disform slightly if you push hard enough (Not on my T43!)

Well I would like to see those... As everything I've touched/used in a store is blown out of the water by my T43, and my dad's T30's durable feeling.