Thinkpads Forum

Looking through Ebay with "Genuine Thinkpad adapter 90w" i see a lot of listings, all of which show pretty much the same power supply in the picture (pictures of the different listings taken from various angles and with various mains cables, but power supply looks identical)

And then there is this one - http://www.ebay.com/itm/271290784840 - Notice that the contents of the label are somewhat different - marking varies, places where things written vary, and there are 4 symbols in the bottom "electric shock", "do not open", "10 arrows", "(H)" rather than 3 in all the others

I checked the power supply on a friend's T60, which is genuine as far as i or he can tell. It looks like the latter one with 4 symbols

Does it mean that the rest are all fakes or they are ok just from other batches ?



Omitting the "Genuine" in the Ebay search immediately leads to a whole lot of adapters that dont even have "Lenovo" written on them, so im asking on whether the "ok" ones are really ok and not some fakes that do have "Lenovo"

IBM and Lenovo have used various sources for their AC adapters over the years. This accounts for the many FRUs that all mean the same voltage (20VDC) and current/wattage (4.5A/90W) is generated by the supply. If the photo matches your friend's adapter exactly, then I'd say it's the real thing, with one caveat (see below). Otherwise, the photo in that eBay auction appears to me to be the genuine article based on the following:

- Embossed Lenovo logo on the top
- Use of a grey Velcro strap (as opposed to black which would signify a 16V adapter)
- General look and layout of the label, based on experience*
- 42T4425 FRU which does exist in Lenovo documentation as being a 20V/4.5A supply

I'm not sure what the (H) symbol means. Could be some sort of warning such as "high potential" inside. One thing I did notice in the description is that the seller may not be providing an AC cord with the supply as it's not specifically mentioned (see under "Package Includes").

*based on experience:

Note that I've never purchased a Thinkpad directly from IBM or Lenovo. Any of the adapters I've received with the systems over the years have looked very close to what that eBay seller is offering or drastically different. An obvious aftermarket item that usually has "For Lenovo" or "For Thinkpad" written on it. The "genuine" supplies may have "Manufactured for IBM/Lenovo".

Which brings me to the caveat I mentioned earlier... The photo shows "Manufactured for lenovo". A lower case "L". This would be cause for concern unless it can be shown that there's MANY supplies out there that are labelled this way or if somebody can confirm that one like this was received with a NEW Thinkpad from the factory. A cursory glance at the 4 90W supplies I have laying around here all have an upper case "L".

I have 5 different 90W/20V Lenovo adapters in front of me.
Every single one is (supposed to be) a genuine Lenovo adapter.
4 out of 5 have "Made for Lenovo" with capital L on them, except #2) which has "Made in China".
1) 42T4434/42T4435, (unreadable (while Chinese) manufacturer)
2) 42T4430/42T4431, (JET)
3) 92P1105/42T5000, (Cosmos)
4) 92P1105/42T5000, (Cosmos)
5) 92P1109/93P5026, (JET)
are their respective P/N or FRU numbers.
Every single one has a figure-8 2-pin AC power cable connector.
All have gray Velcro.
All work perfectly.
All have the same dimensions.
????

The best indicator is weight. I put them on a postage scale. Now, I haven't done this recently, so these are comparative only:

Genuine Lenovo: 9 ounces
3rd part branded with excellent reputation, "PWR+" 8.5 ounces, in the same form factor as the Lenovo.
unbranded adapter: 6.5 ounces

The unbranded adapter did not have fake markings. Instead, it had no brand/maker at all. The general appearance is identical to genuine, so someone could slap a sticker on it and make it a counterfeit.

These differences do not seem huge, but we have to consider that a good part of the weight is in the case and cord. So from http://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-u ... le-is.html
it is likely that the unbranded adapter, and the fakes have heatsinks made of small pieces of scrap aluminum, small inductors, and simple circuits with weak regulation.

After I figured out what is probably inside my unbranded adapter, I don't risk using it. It just sits. I should throw it out. I threw out a bunch of usb chargers after reading Ken Shirriff's article.

PWR+ also sells some lightweight, flat shape adapters of excellent reputation. I think they use higher frequency switching to reduce inductor size. And they run cool.
Anker also makes excellent flat adapters that weigh the same as Lenovo. They run a little hotter than PWR+. I wonder what design choice caused that?

My personal opinion is that it is safe to buy an adapter from a reputable importer like PWR+ or Anker, because they are legal targets. But I think most of the Amazon "Lenovo brand" power adapters are fakes.

1 ounce = 28.3495 grams

As soon as i get the power supply, i can use all possible clues to figure out - general appearance (cheap vs good plastic etc), weight, magnet (some fakes are weighted up with pieces of metal added inside), label contents/accuracy/typos, EMI (interference with AM radio) and heat output under a test load.....

Problem is, how i can ensure that i buy a genuine part, provided only with what the seller writes and a picture....

What is inside a fake adapter - all the best can be expected - self oscillating 2 transistor circuit (instead of current mode chip), tiny capacitors, FR302's for output rectification, absence of kapton tape between primary and secondary in transformer, absence of fuse, absence of sufficient clearance around primary side parts / between primary and secondary, use of cheap ceramic capacitor where blue Y capacitor should be used....... The integrty of the laptop is only one thing you put at danger (read : sure death, just at unknown time) with those adapters.....

Except for the weight, the "no brand" looks impressive. Amazon feedback complains that after a few months, the rubber on the cable at the DC plug molding cracks. So one would have to be a chemist.

In Israel, do you have reputable 3rd party suppliers, like PWR+ and Anker? Their products are very impressive. And the appearances of their proudcts are not similar to laptop makers, so they are not good targets for forgers.

Buyers of Anker supplies have reported personal service, replacements in a few days, two year warranty.

relevant topic: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... w=previous

It is impossible to tell by appearance. If you try, you are competing with the best forgers in the world. I am looking at my unbranded adapter. It is indistinguishable from the Lenovo p/n 40Y7659 except for the label.

To assume that you can detect the forger's label is an underestimation of your enemy. And he is your enemy, because, as has recently been shown, his work could cost your life.

I put mine on a scale, which is not as good as Ash's method of dissasembly. But even Ash's examination cannot totally prove authenticity, because there is also something in China called "supply chain corruption." A garage shop can steal the major parts, and substitute inferior ones, and put the product into the supply chain with forged paperwork.

I have great admiration for the industry of China, but it is hard to appreciate the corruption of the place. They victimize themselves. For example, one form of "currency", actually an alternate coin, is fake invoicing. Some companies accept payment in fake invoices, which are presented to victim companies for payment.

I recommend to everyone, PWR+ and Anker are excelllent sources of adapters that are possibly more advanced than Lenovo's.

FWIW, I got one of the clearly aftermarket $9 ebay 20v T60 adapters, and it works fine.
It has a cutout on the top of the adapter that is designed to house either a ibm/thinkpad sticker or molded logo, so I am not sure if these are basically designed to be used as fakes by anyone who wants to insert a thinkpad/lenovo/ibm logo or if these are simply unlicensed/de-branded power supplies that are from the same factories that the licensed ones were tooled up to produce

Slightly OT:
I have 2 adapters here from different brand laptops:
For Compaq: 177625-001, replace with Compaq spare 198714-001
19V/3.16A, made by LITE-ON Electronics (Dongguang) Ltd. in Guangdong/China
Markings: Model PA-1600-02

For Dell: PA-16 Family, P/N TD231, Model PA-1600-06D2
19V/3.16A, made by [supposedly JET] Dongguang Lite Power 2nd Plant in Guangdong/China
Markings: Model PA-1600-06

Both cases look absolutely identical, incl. the label shape and indentation.
Both have MickeyMouse 3-pin mains sockets.
Only differences:
- the labels themselves
- the DC-cables. Both have the same connector [as also used on 16V/56W-72W IBM adapters]

There are a few that are listed as $8.99 with $6.99 that look OEM and definately don't burn up either.
I've mainly bought the adapters that has "Lenovo" indented on it, either in small font or larger.
I ran across one problem where the 3 prong was faulty and didn't work, but I had an extra 3 prong cable from an older machine that worked just fine.

I've bought the ones that are listed as a T410si, X200LS, or E something. But in the description it is listed as a T61, X61 T400/500...
Also the sticker on the bottom where all the information is written, if it says "replacement adapter" it is clearly not OEM, they do tend to get hot... But I've had one that worked fine for a year on my first X61T...
Anyways good luck, hopefully you don't pay too much that ends up being a knock off.

rkawakami wrote:The photo shows "Manufactured for lenovo". A lower case "L".

I can confirm, original AC adapters might be labelled "Manufactured for lenovo" "Product of China".
This 65W supply came with a new X230t:
Chicony ADLX65NCT2A; LC PN: 36200293; LI PN: 45N0323; FRU PN: 45N0324;

precip9 wrote:It is impossible to tell by appearance. If you try, you are competing with the best forgers in the world. I am looking at my unbranded adapter. It is indistinguishable from the Lenovo p/n 40Y7659 except for the label.

To assume that you can detect the forger's label is an underestimation of your enemy. And he is your enemy, because, as has recently been shown, his work could cost your life.

I put mine on a scale, which is not as good as Ash's method of dissasembly. But even Ash's examination cannot totally prove authenticity, because there is also something in China called "supply chain corruption." A garage shop can steal the major parts, and substitute inferior ones, and put the product into the supply chain with forged paperwork.

I have great admiration for the industry of China, but it is hard to appreciate the corruption of the place. They victimize themselves. For example, one form of "currency", actually an alternate coin, is fake invoicing. Some companies accept payment in fake invoices, which are presented to victim companies for payment.

I recommend to everyone, PWR+ and Anker are excelllent sources of adapters that are possibly more advanced than Lenovo's.

This (emphasis mine).

/thread

In fact, I have taken quite a liking to your quote I bolded, and have already been using it in other contexts.

Anyone have any experience with PWR+ and Anker? Reviews anywhere (particularly by someone who knows power supplies)? Is there another thread somewhere, or perhaps we should branch off into one to discuss those aftermarket adapters? As I think this is an important issue for all of us "keeping the dream alive..." with the older Thinkpads...

Thank you for the compliment. I hereby grant you unlimted license I have ~20 PWR+ and Anker "thin" supplies (8 laptops, carry a spare with each.) None of them have given any trouble.

The Anker weighs about as much as a genuine Lenovo, but the flat shape is easier to fit in the bag. The PWR+ is several ounces lighter. It is probably one of the new high frequency designs, in which faster semi components allow higher switching frequency, with reduction in the weight of the capacitors and inductors.

The penalty of a high frequency design, when used in combination with smaller caps and chokes, is a reduction in holdover time, the milliseconds the supply will hold voltage when AC input is interrupted. The traditional designs go about 30 milliseconds. The high frequency designs hold for about 15 milliseconds.

The reduction in holdover time has no negative impact as long as a battery is installed in the laptop. In the absence of a battery, it is very significant. For ultrabooks, I would go with the PWR+ for the weight.

I thought a high frequency design would run hotter than a traditional design, but the reverse appears to be the case. Informally, the Anker is hotter to the touch at idle, with no laptop attached. But under load, there is no obvious difference. A standard design like the Anker has the potential to be more efficient under high load.

Unless compensated by better components, the longevity of a high frequency design should be shorter than a traditional design. This may be reflected in Anker's longer warranty, or it may be merely a business decision.

As is always the case, the Amazon reviews contains complaints about both makers. But they don't seem statistically significant. There are reports that Anker is unusually responsive to failures. But in my book, one should always carry two.