The End of XP... the end of pre-T43 Thinkpads?

[Thedaddy]

I've got a bunch of pre-T43 TPs I use from time to time. With the imminent demise of XP, are these machines going to go the way of the T-Rex? If anyone has tried loading XP SP3 lately, I think microsoft has already begun the wind-down-- as I've seen issues with Windows Update not functioning on a fresh install.

I guess there's the Linux-Fedora option for these TPs, but I've also seen some chatter that non-microsoft providers are weighing whether to continue the updates after D-day. It also looks like MSE will be non-usable on XP after the end. Which is odd, I would have thought it would have continued working-- just without updates.

Unfortunately, I suspect Vista just won't work on T40s or R51s as the video cards won't support it?

The only bright spot may be that virus writers will focus on W7 applications and not so much on XP--but that will take some time. Just wondered what you all are thinking about going forward...

[rkawakami]

I've installed WinXP SP3 on several Thinkpads in the recent past; A31p to X301. Windows Update just downloaded several patches on this A31p here at work so I imagine my home units will see it too. Yes, XP is going to be joining the T-Rex and its cousin the dodo, however I still plan on running XP for at least a few more years.

Somewhat along these lines, I just finished installing Windows 98 Second Edition on a T23 (!). The major problem I had was implementing APM instead of ACPI. There's still one unknown device found by Device Manager but everything seems to be running right. It is a project for a family friend who needs a W98SE system for some point-of-sale software he runs.

[ajkula66]

The bare minimum for Vista/W7 is a T42 with Radeon 9600. Anything older/weaker than that will suffer tremendously.

Linux, yes. There are many distros that will play reasonably well with older hardware, and I honestly don't see another option going forward...

With that said, the biggest troublemaker is Flash, and there's not much one can do to get away from it nowadays...

My $0.02 only...

[Thedaddy]

Seems a terrible waste to me, to relegate millions of tons of machines to the fire pits in various insundry places. But time marches on, I guess.

At one point I thought about writing a letter to the New York Times editor, asking whether this outcome reflected Microsoft's so-called embrace of recycling and the environment. Apparently the U.S. is a bit behind the curve here, as in many countries part of the cost of buying a computer is a fee which is later used to safely recycle the laptop when it is "retired."

I don't think Microsoft has been spending enormous amounts of money to keep XP going. I don't envision dozens of employees working on updates for the XP line. But, I could be wrong. The larger present issue is that so many machines are still running XP.

I may give Linux a serious spin on some of these older laptops. My experience with Fedora is you do have to know your way around software. They are about ready to roll out "20" though, and with every upgrade, this system does become more user-friendly.

That IBM has made machines that have lasted this long says alot about the build quality they embraced in those days. Yep, they cost a bit more. But who would have thought then these machines would be used for 15-20 years?

[ajkula66]

I'm running Fedora 18 on a sickly-but-undying T42p which serves as my Linux test bed at the moment. Have yet to figure out what it will be for my A31p once I swap the planar, let alone for my X24 once I locate a hard drive for it...

The idea of loading OS/2 on A31p had crossed my mind more than once, I must admit...

[GACrabill]

I've got a bunch of pre-T43 TPs I use from time to time. With the imminent demise of XP, are these machines going to go the way of the T-Rex?

You should read some of the threads in the T4x forum.

A number of us are still using T40-T42 laptops that are still useable and may be for a few more years.

My T40 has a 2.00GHz Pentium M, 2GB of memory (250mb of that used for a RAMDisk for Temporary Internet Files), a 128GB 1.8" microSATA Kingston SSD connected to an IDE-to-microSATA adapter, a replacement motherboard with 64mb ATI-9000 graphics, and Windows 7.

I have used this T40 exclusively for over 10 years ... and far too many hours per day. The upgrades were done over many years and they have kept this laptop performing just fine for web browsing, email, documents, spreadsheets, etc.

If your pre-T43 Thinkpads still have XP, 512mb of memory, the original 30-40GB harddrive, noisy fans, and worn-out keyboards .... then I agree that they are too archaic for upgrading.

I still have relatives using 1200MHz Pentium-3 laptops with XP for web browsing and email. Obviously, they would love to have my "T-Rex" T40 since it actually boots faster and handles web browsing / emails quicker than most of the laptops that I "fix" on a regular basis.

[Thedaddy]

"Usable" is my frustration with Microsoft. These machines have quite a bit of life left in them, and it just seems a shame that if we continue using them we may face security issues--on the Net. I suppose Norton will continue support, but at some point a year or two from now, we'll be too far behind as I can see IE 11 or 12 taking us places online that XP IE 8 could never. It will be life trying to surf the Net using W2000 now. Everything seems to be advancing way faster than before. Heck, the First Gen Ipad is already in its sunset, and that is only about three years old.

The thought occurs to me...wouldn't it be interesting if we could use XP as the OS and Linux for the browser with it's own security separate from XP? Perhaps some of you are way ahead of me and doing this now.

[Unknown_K]

Companies make money selling new software, not supporting older ones (unless they have quite a few people willing to pay a decent amount of cash to bother).

There are other browsers out that support older OS versions (Firefox etc.) so that even Win2k can get on the web. I would not do any online banking using such and old machine but for normal tasks it would be OK. You can pick up new laptops for $300 so its not like you have to go without mobile machines in this day and age.

[Medessec]

Heck, the First Gen Ipad is already in its sunset, and that is only about three years old.

Well, that's Apple. Microsoft does a pretty good job making sure it's products and software last... and XP is pretty much a prime example.

I think the big thing about XP is that it was the mainstream version of Windows when the Internet rapidly evolved into the system that technology nowadays takes for granted... we've gone from just installing from CDs to downloading from the net, watching DVDs from a DVD-ROM to just going on the net, and even being pushed to having a device that just constantly assumes you're connected to the internet(i.e, Chromebook, pretty much any iOS device, most tablets), and XP is pretty much the Windows that came before all that. I guess the key thing is that XP CAN connect to the internet, security will be an issue, but... I guess you'll have to hold out and cross the bridge when you come to it.

[Saucey]

XP isn't that bad but I did run into a problem where svchost.exe would run the CPU at 99%. I installed Windows 7 on the A31P for giggles but it didn't automatically detect the WiFi card so I stopped bothering. Wasn't so bad with disabled aero settings.

Gonna reinstall XP on it today, I've got plenty Win7 machines, ran xubuntu before that install on it but I had sound issues among other problems that I didn't feel like debugging.

I got a second HDD if all goes wrong.

[Eric Giles]

XP isn't that bad but I did run into a problem where svchost.exe would run the CPU at 99%. I installed Windows 7 on the A31P for giggles but it didn't automatically detect the WiFi card so I stopped bothering. Wasn't so bad with disabled aero settings.

Gonna reinstall XP on it today, I've got plenty Win7 machines, ran xubuntu before that install on it but I had sound issues among other problems that I didn't feel like debugging.

I got a second HDD if all goes wrong.

In case you get the svchost.exe at 99% when you reinstall Windows XP-I had the same issue with my T42. My searching found this link which might helpful for you or anyone else with the problem.

http://www.infoworld.com/t/microsoft-wi ... 017-230733

[makajzdaj]

XP isn't that bad but I did run into a problem where svchost.exe would run the CPU at 99%

I have that problem on my desktop PC with Win 7... Its not only XP related. Nothing that some hard "RMB End Process" will not solve. Still PITA.

Had a T43 with x300 and run seven flawlessly. Just enable flashblock in your browser.

[dr_st]

Yeah, well, the problem with violently ending svchost.exe processes, is that you usually have no idea what that process was for (since there are typically several of them), and so you don't know which aspect of the system you've just disabled until your next reboot.

But indeed it happens once in a while on every NT-based OS.

[makajzdaj]

...since there are typically several of them...

True. Most of the time is the svchost with the higher cpu utilization. But sometimes happens that I choose the wrong one. The one that is responsable for something to do with Aero. Needs manual reload for this function. Another pita...

Still, love Seven on my thinkpads (X60 and T60).

[pianowizard]

The bare minimum for Vista/W7 is a T42 with Radeon 9600.

Interesting. Are you saying that Vista doesn't have proper drivers (especially graphics drivers) for older laptops? I recall several forum members running Vista on the T23.

BTW, I have a Dell Latitude D810, which is equivalent to the T43. I used 7 on it for a couple weeks, thinking everything was fine, until I tried to open a certain PowerPoint file, which invariably caused the computer to blue-screen. So I downgraded to Vista, and that problem went away. From this experience, I suspect that even the T43 may not be 100.000% compatible with 7, in the sense that it may have latent glitches that become apparent only when you do certain things.

I still use Windows XP on three old computers. One of them, a Dell Dimension XPS T700r, is still online occasionally but beginning April 8th 2014 I will keep it offline permanently. I tried upgrading it to Vista but the HDD couldn't even boot during the upgrade process. The other two, an X31 Thinkpad and a Dell Inspiron 7500, are already never online. All my other PCs use Vista (four), 7 (seven) or 8 (two). My PowerBook G4 uses Mac OS 10.5 "Leopard", and it is also offline since it's no longer supported by Apple.

[Medessec]

Interesting. Are you saying that Vista doesn't have proper drivers (especially graphics drivers) for older laptops? I recall several forum members running Vista on the T23.

There's not even a proper driver for the Radeon 9600 if I recall. There are good drivers that allow Aero for the Radeon X300/X600/V3200 of the T43, but only just. If there is a proper driver for the 9600 then that's my mistake. People are more than welcome to install Vista/7 on a machine not made to run it(Thinkpad T23), the OS will still install and work, but there won't be any solid graphics driver for the video hardware. vga.dll will remain installed for it and the laptop will perform pretty poorly with just about everything that requires video hardware acceleration. It's the same situation with installing Windows XP on a Thinkpad 770.

Windows Vista and 7 differ only very slightly, I don't understand why 7 would BSOD at opening a PPT and vista wouldn't... shouldn't be the graphics hardware's fault. I've been using Windows 7 on my T43p with almost no issues. None related to a BSOD from certain video-intensive applications.


The only computer that I have XP installed on right now is my Sony Vaio VGC-RC210G, it dual-boots 7 and XP, because the ATI Wonder capture card driver doesn't work in 7.

[ajkula66]

Interesting. Are you saying that Vista doesn't have proper drivers (especially graphics drivers) for older laptops? I recall several forum members running Vista on the T23.

Yes.

Radeon 9600 and FireGL T2 (found in T41p, T42p and R50p) were officially supported by M$ and there was a Vista driver for them that works in W7 as well.

I've tested W7 RC on T23 just for giggles and it was outright painful...

[Nigellus]

I just put a fresh install of XP Pro on my T60, and there were no issues.

As to the security concerns, I ran Windows 98 unsupported up until a few years ago. I never had a problem with malware exploiting a weakness in the OS. My position is that virus authors will focus on the newer, more current OS.

[Medessec]

My position is that virus authors will focus on the newer, more current OS.

From what I've seen- most viruses and malware nowadays are exploiting Windows by itself to a much lesser extent, and actually exploiting newer things, such as the Google Chrome Extension system, Flash and Silverlight, and scams... such as the ones to get your email address.

I suppose what you could do if you want to continue using XP is employ a less common browser that still has adequate technologies and security(i.e, Opera).

[Saucey]

I never have Virus/Malware problems until someone else uses my computer...
I'm curious onto how it gets there but having keyloggers and browsing through my internet history still seem an invasion of privacy even if it is on my PC and changes advertising from Google e.g. bath salts ads.

I'm surprised my father has yet to obtain a virus/homepage ads on his personal laptop.

I would think there would be a java exploit from XP simply because they would stop updating it after some time.

[Penultimate]

I've got a bunch of pre-T43 TPs I use from time to time. anyone has tried loading XP SP3 lately, I think microsoft has already begun the wind-down-- as I've seen issues with Windows Update not functioning on a fresh install.

Umm.. I downloaded all 3 XP service packs off of CNET, and simply have them on my backup drive.. not that I see any time in the future I will ever use them again, so if you fear MS will remove access to them its a free download to store a copy for your own personal future needs.

The only bright spot may be that virus writers will focus on W7 applications and not so much on XP--but that will take some time. Just wondered what you all are thinking about going forward...

Its going to be a long time before XP loses market share down the level of Vista. I think Vista is only around 5% market share of internet user volume. XP was recently around 50 or 60% of all internet user volume. Thus, XP usage on most of these machines are going to account for a large share of internet connected computers for a while to come, making it unlikely they would go untargeted.

Anything anyone could possibly need for a XP computer is going to be permanently available in easy reach on the internet, and no one who doesnt want to is going to be forced to transition from it against their will due to any MS actions.. that totally implausible.

I would say that anyone who is using XP because its familiar to them needs to try Win7, and realize that you are losing nothing at all by switching, and that it is clearly superior and contains major improvements over XP. I dont have the same warm fuzzie feelings for Win8, but its mostly due to the start screen/shutdown implementation and that can be resolved with 8.1 if anyone wants to waste another 3.5 gigs I guess.

[mattdocs12345]

I've got a bunch of pre-T43 TPs I use from time to time. With the imminent demise of XP, are these machines going to go the way of the T-Rex?

Why? No? Windows XP even without updates can be made more secure than 99% of WIndows 7/8 machines out there. Here are some things you can do:
- LUA + SRP + EMET
- Shadow Defender - Lockdown mode
- Executable Radar Pro - Lockdown mode
- Private FW block all incoming and outgoing traffic except the browser
- Chrome Browser
- Bitdefender Safeplay for banking

This set up is more easy on resources than most Internet Security suites out there. Shadown Defender virtualizes entire operating system and restores it to default upon every restart. It has been tested for years with no malware being able to bypass it. Executable Radar Pro stops any executable files from running on XP just in case you compromise your Windows inbetween restarts. Private FW is a very light weight FW to control outgoing connections. Chrome sandboxes Flash, it is generally more secure than Firefox. Bitdefender Safeplay virtualizes the browser to keep the infections away from your browser where you do your banking. And now if BitDefender gets bypassed, Executable Radar Pro gets bypassed and you got infected within 15 minutes of turning on the computer then there is always the good old firewall that can stop outgoing connections.

My Windows XP machines are like a fort Knox. Good luck anything coming in or coming out. Also from privacy perspective XP is way ahead of Windows 7 or 8 but that's for another thread.

[dr_st]

Its going to be a long time before XP loses market share down the level of Vista. I think Vista is only around 5% market share of internet user volume. XP was recently around 50 or 60% of all internet user volume.

Actually, it's already under 30%, but that's still a significant portion, that's true.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_shar ... ng_systems

I would say that anyone who is using XP because its familiar to them needs to try Win7, and realize that you are losing nothing at all by switching, and that it is clearly superior and contains major improvements over XP.

The problem is that some really old hardware (X3x, early T4x laptops) will not play nice with Win7, not because they are too weak, but simply because there are no good drivers for some things (most frequently - the GPU). I've installed Win7 as a secondary system on my X32, and it was a huge pain. After a lot of hassle it kinda works OK, but some things still don't work (Win+P, for instance), battery life is noticeably shorter (due to lack of power optimizations), and most importantly - it has a tendency to lock up every once in a while when changing power states (standby, hibernate, wake up, dock, undock), something which never happens with XP on the same system.

So moving away from XP completely will mean the end of life for a couple of generations of otherwise still somewhat usable systems.

However, since we are talking about old systems here, they are already not powerful enough to be daily drivers for anyone. And if someone still uses one, it's probably at least a secondary (or most likely tertiary or more) system. Likely not use for anything important. As such it's probably not gonna kill anyone to experience some increase in vulnerability or decrease in stability.

[dr_st]

This set up is more easy on resources than most Internet Security suites out there. Shadown Defender virtualizes entire operating system and restores it to default upon every restart. It has been tested for years with no malware being able to bypass it. Executable Radar Pro stops any executable files from running on XP just in case you compromise your Windows inbetween restarts. Private FW is a very light weight FW to control outgoing connections. Chrome sandboxes Flash, it is generally more secure than Firefox. Bitdefender Safeplay virtualizes the browser to keep the infections away from your browser where you do your banking. And now if BitDefender gets bypassed, Executable Radar Pro gets bypassed and you got infected within 15 minutes of turning on the computer then there is always the good old firewall that can stop outgoing connections.

My Windows XP machines are like a fort Knox. Good luck anything coming in or coming out. Also from privacy perspective XP is way ahead of Windows 7 or 8 but that's for another thread.

Maybe I should just cut my testicles proactively, so as to eliminate the chance of eventually developing testicle cancer?

I don't doubt the effectiveness of your solutions, but crippling usability so much for the sake of making the computer a "Fort Knox" to me feels like missing the point by a few miles.

I also find it funny that you mention the privacy perspective, and in the same breath mention Chrome, which is basically a spyware/data mining engine with a browser front-end.

[Medessec]

Meh. I personally don't even use Antivirus, because I'm pretty good at just plain being careful, or watching where I browse. Not saying that you guys all aren't, because I still do get viruses. But even on my XP machines, if I get a trojan horse or virus of sorts, I deal with it myself, and if it ever gets to the point where the computer is running unhealthily or certain parts don't work properly anymore, then it's time to put 'ol Bessie down I have my trusty Windows Recovery disks handy. I'll have Windows heal itself, use System Restore, or just install everything fresh again. It's a pain in the neck to encounter a new problem, then "deal" with it, because they just keep coming, and after a year or two your computer is just crawling along.

Like I mentioned earlier anyways, I'm seeing viruses and malware less on XP and more on browsers, particularly trendy ones like... *ahem* Chrome. Don't get me wrong, Chrome does do a good job, but the extension system and plugin web content suited for Chrome(Java, Flash) have become an obvious new target for virus crafters and scammers.

Please don't let me rain on your parade, if you have a method that works for you, and you're accustomed to it and get all the benefits, I have nothing against it. Because at least you've gotten up and done something, other than the 90% of computer users who just let the trouble stack up, refuse to commit the brain power needed to solve the problem, and one day throw their computer across the room in anger only to go out to the local electronics store and come home with an iPad. *tsk*, it's a tragedy.

And good god dr_st, quite an attention grabbing analogy right there... But valid point.

[mattdocs12345]

This set up is more easy on resources than most Internet Security suites out there. Shadown Defender virtualizes entire operating system and restores it to default upon every restart. It has been tested for years with no malware being able to bypass it. Executable Radar Pro stops any executable files from running on XP just in case you compromise your Windows inbetween restarts. Private FW is a very light weight FW to control outgoing connections. Chrome sandboxes Flash, it is generally more secure than Firefox. Bitdefender Safeplay virtualizes the browser to keep the infections away from your browser where you do your banking. And now if BitDefender gets bypassed, Executable Radar Pro gets bypassed and you got infected within 15 minutes of turning on the computer then there is always the good old firewall that can stop outgoing connections.

My Windows XP machines are like a fort Knox. Good luck anything coming in or coming out. Also from privacy perspective XP is way ahead of Windows 7 or 8 but that's for another thread.

Maybe I should just cut my testicles proactively, so as to eliminate the chance of eventually developing testicle cancer?

I don't doubt the effectiveness of your solutions, but crippling usability so much for the sake of making the computer a "Fort Knox" to me feels like missing the point by a few miles.

I also find it funny that you mention the privacy perspective, and in the same breath mention Chrome, which is basically a spyware/data mining engine with a browser front-end.

The set up that I mentioned is for security and not for privacy. If you want privacy you need to run heavilly twaeked XP or linux or better yet BSD.

And this above set up will not cut off your testicles - I can promise you that. I don't think you have seen a cut off testicle set up with full blown HIPS.

Meh. I personally don't even use Antivirus, because I'm pretty good at just plain being careful, or watching where I browse. Not saying that you guys all aren't, because I still do get viruses. But even on my XP machines, if I get a trojan horse or virus of sorts, I deal with it myself, and if it ever gets to the point where the computer is running unhealthily or certain parts don't work properly anymore, then it's time to put 'ol Bessie down I have my trusty Windows Recovery disks handy. I'll have Windows heal itself, use System Restore, or just install everything fresh again. It's a pain in the neck to encounter a new problem, then "deal" with it, because they just keep coming, and after a year or two your computer is just crawling along.

Like I mentioned earlier anyways, I'm seeing viruses and malware less on XP and more on browsers, particularly trendy ones like... *ahem* Chrome. Don't get me wrong, Chrome does do a good job, but the extension system and plugin web content suited for Chrome(Java, Flash) have become an obvious new target for virus crafters and scammers.

Please don't let me rain on your parade, if you have a method that works for you, and you're accustomed to it and get all the benefits, I have nothing against it. Because at least you've gotten up and done something, other than the 90% of computer users who just let the trouble stack up, refuse to commit the brain power needed to solve the problem, and one day throw their computer across the room in anger only to go out to the local electronics store and come home with an iPad. *tsk*, it's a tragedy.

And good god dr_st, quite an attention grabbing analogy right there... But valid point.

You don't understand. Chrome plug in's will not be hit because nothing will be able to execute on the laptop. Unless you are going after plain hacking, then yeah... you might as well turn off your computer because guess what you will never be safe.

Anyways. This is my set up that is just an alternative to throwing away computer. But you guys are very weclomed to throw yours away or do whatever you like.
Cheers.

[Cigarguy]

Minimal free antivirus here. Microsoft Security Essentials is light, fast and runs seamlessly in the background. It's good enough for me. Don't concern myself about security when using an old OS on an old system. Don't browse or do anything stupid. I've owned, used and abused hundreds of machines since the late 80s and never had any security issues. The way I see it, it's not that different than a power saw, some guy will manage to cut his hand off regardless of whatever safety procedure, process, guards you have, most will work a lifetime with all fingers in tact. I don't do anything stupid though and run away when a drop dead gorgeous girl from Russia tells me how much she loves me but have never laid eyes on my ugly mug or seen the size of my wallet.

[QWERTY Andreas]

Someone did, long ago, mod a Windows 7 install. Its called "tiny7"

It take nearly no resources. I have used it on my OQO 01+, which is far, far, far slower than any T4x thinkpad.

Combine it with a ligth AV, a ligth browser (slimboat) and some good optimizing and it should be good.

Windows XP is dead. Or at least, should be dead. I wish nobody used it anymore.. Its outdated, insecure (unless you do, like some users, cramp it with a ton of software) and is not supporting a lot of Things for todays standards. Its like using Windows 98 in 2008.

[Penultimate]

I also find it funny that you mention the privacy perspective, and in the same breath mention Chrome, which is basically a spyware/data mining engine with a browser front-end.

Lol.. too true.
SRWare Iron = yes
Its Google Chrome grandpappy = never

[identify9]

How about the other way round? Run Linux as the OS, with XP tucked safely inside a Virtual Box. Security problems (mostly) solved

"Usable" is my frustration with Microsoft. These machines have quite a bit of life left in them, and it just seems a shame that if we continue using them we may face security issues--on the Net. I suppose Norton will continue support, but at some point a year or two from now, we'll be too far behind as I can see IE 11 or 12 taking us places online that XP IE 8 could never. It will be life trying to surf the Net using W2000 now. Everything seems to be advancing way faster than before. Heck, the First Gen Ipad is already in its sunset, and that is only about three years old.
The thought occurs to me...wouldn't it be interesting if we could use XP as the OS and Linux for the browser with it's own security separate from XP? Perhaps some of you are way ahead of me and doing this now.

Sent from my phone which wishes it could have been a T43p