Thinkpads Forum

a question I've always wondered:
how come after the 40 series thinkpad have become much more 'thick and heavy? the series 50, then 60 etc. ..
it seems to me that instead of 'go ahead .. go back at least as dimensions.

the disappearance of IBM has nothing to do?

aldimeola81 wrote:a question I've always wondered:
how come after the 40 series thinkpad have become much more 'thick and heavy? the series 50, then 60 etc. ..
it seems to me that instead of 'go ahead .. go back at least as dimensions.

the disappearance of IBM has nothing to do?

Magnesium sub frame.

T60

T40

DRobinson wrote:

aldimeola81 wrote:a question I've always wondered:
how come after the 40 series thinkpad have become much more 'thick and heavy? the series 50, then 60 etc. ..
it seems to me that instead of 'go ahead .. go back at least as dimensions.

the disappearance of IBM has nothing to do?

Magnesium sub frame.

T60

T40

yes, I know well the rollcage of the two models, but I think the T series has had a sharp decline in recent years, from lightweight, reliable and aesthetically pleasing, has become a series excessively thick, with low resolution display, almost Economic say.

For example, a t43 is as thick as an x61, sold three years later as a superlight.

and it continues like this; the T61P is most often the T60p, the w510 is even more 'thick T61P ..

actually it seems to me very strange.

aldimeola81 wrote:and it continues like this; the T61P is most often the T60p, the w510 is even more 'thick T61P .. actually it seems to me very strange.

If you care about sturdiness and reliability, you want thick, because you get better ventilation and better structural robustness. For portability, it is the weight that matters, not thickness, unless it's ridiculously thick like those early laptops from the 1990s. I agree than "thin" usually looks nicer though.

The GPU in a W510 uses 35w, the CPU 45w (or 55w).
In the T43p, the CPU uses 27w, I can't find the power consumption for X600/V3200 anywhere, but it is at least half of the FX880m.

Higher power consumption = more heat, and that requires a bigger cooler, so the laptop will get bigger for that reason alone.

Also, thin laptops have the display closer to the table, witch is not good for ergonomics.
For mobile workstations, a thin chassis is a disadvantage, with no real benefit.

aldimeola81 wrote:how come after the 40 series thinkpad have become much more 'thick and heavy? the series 50, then 60 etc.

That's just not true, plain and simple.

First of all, there is no T50 series, and comparing with R50 is comparing apples and oranges. R series have always been thicker and heavier.

T60 vs T40 series is marginally thicker, but weighs exactly the same for the same configuration (often a bit less due to lighter optical drives being used).

Now, if you stick to 14" models (I've had very little experience with 15" units after the T60), then:

* T61 is heavier (rollcage added to LCD), T400 is a bit lighter than T61, but still heavier than T4x/T60.
* Starting from T400, a new sub-series (T400s, T410s etc) has been added which is much thinner and lighter than any T series has been before, to the point that I find it more closely related to the X series, so let's not talk about them.
* T410 is a bit thicker than previous generation Ts, but not heavier at all. Maybe even a bit lighter than T4x/T60, at least that's what I measured, partly due to even lighter optical drives, and transition to SSDs on many models.
* T420 is thinner again, and even lighter (due to thinner LCD lid).

So there is absolutely no tendency to make the machines bigger and/or heavier. If anything, it's the other way around.

aldimeola81 wrote:a question I've always wondered:
how come after the 40 series thinkpad have become much more 'thick and heavy? the series 50, then 60 etc. ..
it seems to me that instead of 'go ahead .. go back at least as dimensions.

the disappearance of IBM has nothing to do?

If you want an ultrabook get a X1 Carbon.

mind you : I am one who loves and defends the thinkpad above all else , for me it is not a problem my w510 is heavy and thick, so the table is always open and firm , and then a series workstations.

but if a college girl for example, had to choose between a thinkpad laptop and a municipality of another brand? For example , seeing a T410 or a t61 , perhaps with a screen resolution low and 5 cm thick , believed to have a computer of the 90s .

In my opinion Lenovo could be more ' careful at this thing (it seems that as of today things are changing for the better)

about the rollcage , the solution of the t40 was not bad, rollcage external hardware and thin , in fact on the x series has always worked very well.

anyone ever noticed that the t60 series 15 " LCD has the plastic cover and no internal rollcage ? yet it is equally thick as a brick, but if you try to push the closed laptop is easy to break the screen as it would on an acer .

aldimeola81 wrote:For example , seeing a T410 or a t61 , perhaps with a screen resolution low and 5 cm thick , believed to have a computer of the 90s .

Yes, but your numbers are simply wrong. Neither T61 nor T410 are anywhere close to 5cm thick, come on. They are 32mm at the thickest point. Even your W510 is only 36mm thick.

Compare them to contemporary offerings (mind you, a T61 is a laptop from 2007!), and you will see that they are not worse in any aspect (including screen resolution).

With T61 you could have 1400x900 on 14" and 1920x1200 on 15.4". These are the absolute highest resolutions ever offered on 8:5 screens of such sizes (until the recent ultra-high-res "retina" offerings).

aldimeola81 wrote:anyone ever noticed that the t60 series 15 " LCD has the plastic cover and no internal rollcage ? yet it is equally thick as a brick, but if you try to push the closed laptop is easy to break the screen as it would on an acer .

Never happened to me, nor anyone I know. And I have seen absolutely zero evidence that magnesium lids or rollcages are effective in preventing cracked LCD panels.

I measured my w510, from the table to the hinge is 40mm exact

the t43 instead of 32.5 mm, the x60t 36.5 mm, 38.5 mm the x61 2008

I have them all here in front of me and makes me smile it seems an involution of the breed.

Series of 2008 x ultraportabile is more 'thicker than T series from 2005 and earlier.

if you tell me that the rollcage does not serve to strengthen the frame of the LCD, what is its purpose? however, the question is: why the t60 15 "despite not having the rollcage in the display is still as thick as the others?

I shipped several thinkpad over the years, the only one that was handed to me with the broken display was a t60 15 "

aldimeola81 wrote:I measured my w510, from the table to the hinge is 40mm exact

the t43 instead of 32.5 mm, the x60t 36.5 mm, 38.5 mm the x61 2008

I presume you are comparing a 14" T43 to a 15" W510. Not a fair comparison by any means. The 15" series have always been thicker than the 14" ones.

The X6x has a design where it is slimmer at the front and thicker at the back. This is done to accommodate a cylindrical battery for more battery life. X4x had it to a smaller extent, and their battery life was slightly worse because of that, despite having less power-hungry hardware.

14" and larged laptops need not make such compromises - their size is sufficient to accommodate a large battery while keeping fairly even thickness throughout.

But this compromise on the X series (compromise some thinness at the back to increase battery life) is very smart from usability point of view. This is good engineering, not bad one as you try to claim.

aldimeola81 wrote:if you tell me that the rollcage does not serve to strengthen the frame of the LCD, what is its purpose? however, the question is: why the t60 15 "despite not having the rollcage in the display is still as thick as the others?

In theory it's supposed to strengthen the display lid and make it less likely to break. In practice I am not sure it had a statistically significant effect, and that's probably one of the reasons they eventually discontinued it.

The 15" lid is thicker to accommodate the thicker, larger and heavier 15" LCD. From my experience as an owner of both a 14" and a 15" T60 for many years, I found that the thicker lid provides adequate protection for the 15" LCD. I found that it flexes and distorts less from pressure. If it was as thin as the 14" lid, it probably would be quite weak.

I generally use the soft rim trackpoint cap on my Thinkpads. As you may know, it protrudes higher than the other kind of caps. Eventually, almost all my laptops have developed a permanent circular pressure mark on the LCD from the trackpoint being squeezed against it when the laptop is carried with the lid closed (especially squeezed in bag). The only two ones that have not are the 15" T42 and T60...

I agree that the thinkpad are the best laptops ever built, but perhaps the lenovo a little 'attention to the size would have been better.

however, things are improving in recent years, the x series are really thin and competitors such as aesthetics of fashion models (garbage beautifully finished) that builds the apple.

if the lenovo had taken this step before, now the thinkpad would be the computer of all and not a product of elite almost unknown.

aldimeola81 wrote:I agree that the thinkpad are the best laptops ever built, but perhaps the lenovo a little 'attention to the size would have been better.

however, things are improving in recent years, the x series are really thin and competitors such as aesthetics of fashion models (garbage beautifully finished) that builds the apple.

if the lenovo had taken this step before, now the thinkpad would be the computer of all and not a product of elite almost unknown.

You got it backwards, Lenovo stopped making ThinkPads in recent years, they only pretend nothing has changed.

If you like Lenovos new offerings, then I see no reason why you should like the old ones, they have very little in common.

What is it that you think you can do with a thin laptop, that a thicker laptop of otherwise similar dimensions can't do?

aldimeola81 wrote:I agree that the thinkpad are the best laptops ever built

Wow, you may be the first forum member to have said something like this since at least 2012! People used to make similar statements all the time, because they were true, but even the most loyal Thinkpad fans stopped saying such things long ago.

Adda wrote:

aldimeola81 wrote:I agree that the thinkpad are the best laptops ever built, but perhaps the lenovo a little 'attention to the size would have been better.

however, things are improving in recent years, the x series are really thin and competitors such as aesthetics of fashion models (garbage beautifully finished) that builds the apple.

if the lenovo had taken this step before, now the thinkpad would be the computer of all and not a product of elite almost unknown.

You got it backwards, Lenovo stopped making ThinkPads in recent years, they only pretend nothing has changed.

If you like Lenovos new offerings, then I see no reason why you should like the old ones, they have very little in common.

What is it that you think you can do with a thin laptop, that a thicker laptop of otherwise similar dimensions can't do?

thinkpad more ' new that I have seen so far is mine, I have not touched anything with the hand of the 540 series , when I will see them ' can ' talk about it, even the new keyboard I can not say anything, it is certain that lenovo makes great products and very above the competition in terms of value for ' money ..

thinkpad classic line I think it has endured for far too long , we have to consider that the customer market is not made ​​up of us older fans were fossilized at thinkpad t30 , maybe we'll be 2000 all over the world .. and 1500 of them still using 40 -60 series.. but of ordinary people, he sees a computer stylized black and thick most of the old HP that wants to replace , compares it with a mac made ​​of aluminum and a new acer built by three of recycled plastic bottles and decides to two issues: the price and aesthetics


I'm a hardware technician authorized sharp office automation , I know I recognize well-designed products to products built with only one thing in mind : the budget .

lenovo goes great in my opinion.

aldimeola81 wrote:
thinkpad more ' new that I have seen so far is mine, I have not touched anything with the hand of the 540 series , when I will see them ' can ' talk about it, even the new keyboard I can not say anything, it is certain that lenovo makes great products and very above the competition in terms of value for ' money ..

How is that certain, and who has decided that it is certain to begin with?

compares it with a mac made ​​of aluminum and a new acer built by three of recycled plastic bottles and decides to two issues: the price and aesthetics

Macs are consumer-grade machines, and acers are just...OMG junk.

One compares ThinkPads to business-grade laptops such as EliteBooks and Precisions and then they do not appear to be ahead of the curve at all.

I'm a hardware technician authorized sharp office automation , I know I recognize well-designed products to products built with only one thing in mind : the budget .

You'll have to do a lot better to impress a forum that counts many university professors, barristers and scientists among its members...let alone hundreds of IT professionals and programmers...

lenovo goes great in my opinion.

You are entitled to your opinion, by all means. I'd venture a guess that it's shared by no more than two dozen people around here.

@ ajkula66

surely you're right, sorry if I was stupid enough to present my opinion on this forum, I did not think it was so unpopular excuse yet.

I can not definitely be able to debate with scientists, lawyers, doctors, engineers, chemists, programmers and so on. therefore more 'intelligently here I close the debate.

sorry again for my arrogance, I'm a poor stupid technical, surely there are many things out of my reach.

I use 8 hours a day to repair machines of all kinds, and is a nuisance but when unmounting a thinkpad for me it is a pleasure to see the attention to every detail inside, I would stay hours to analyze individual components. From what little I understand, of course.

when I open a acer, an hp, an asus or an apple I want to cry.

always within the limits of my ignorance, of course.

sorry again for my arrogance.

Regards, in sympathy.

aldimeola81 wrote:@ ajkula66

surely you're right, sorry if I was stupid enough to present my opinion on this forum, I did not think it was so unpopular excuse yet.

It's not a matter of what your opinion is, but how it was presented.

I can not definitely be able to debate with scientists, lawyers, doctors, engineers, chemists, programmers and so on. therefore more 'intelligently here I close the debate.

sorry again for my arrogance, I'm a poor stupid technical, surely there are many things out of my reach.

Once again, the fact that you're a member of "technical intelligentsia" is plausible in its own right. How you went about it was rather...huh..over-reaching.

when I open a acer, an hp, an asus or an apple I want to cry.

You must have only opened consumer-grade HPs. Agreed on your view of asus/acer, disagree with Apple but that's just me.

sorry again for my arrogance.

Regards, in sympathy.

Apart from the irony in your post which was well-received by silly old me, may I just say that you've completely ignored the couple of points that I tried to bring to your attention in my previous post.

I still hope that you enjoy your stay here. There's always something to learn, and new blood is what TPF needs.

@ ajkula66

I apologize if I ignored some points.

and if my tone seems arrogant, not my will, I do not speak English well and I think this is very obvious.

which models of thinkpad we talking about? in your opinion, where lenovo was wrong?
I hope that we are not just talking about the new keyboard

sure is strange that you can judge lenovo not being a scientist, doctor, pharmacist, chemist or teacher, sure it's within your reach?
or maybe it's enough to be a senior member to judge people and machines?

if, however, 'we want to make a speech as simply ignorant, we can continue.

from 40 series to 530 series I do not see big mistakes, the 540 series I've ever seen disassembled, if you have pictures of the motherboard and connectors, I can give an opinion. I'm talking about pictures, not drawing from hardware maintenance manual.

I know the hp elitebook and precision of dell, but will speak 'after, first I want to understand what you're talking about.

fresh blood for the old vampires tpf I suppose?


not so soon

aldimeola81 wrote: which models of thinkpad we talking about? in your opinion, where lenovo was wrong?

Trend of chasing Apple with "light & thin". Huge trackpads. QC thrown through the window.

I

hope that we are not just talking about the new keyboard

That was the straw that broke the camel's back for quite a few of us...

sure is strange that you can judge lenovo not being a scientist, doctor, pharmacist, chemist or teacher, sure it's within your reach?
or maybe it's enough to be a senior member to judge people and machines?

First of all...do you have any idea how many ThinkPads some of us here have gutted out...

Second of all...you have no clue what I do/have done for a living...or what my CV would include when it comes to education.

And I don't judge people...

if, however, 'we want to make a speech as simply ignorant, we can continue.

from 40 series to 530 series I do not see big mistakes, the 540 series I've ever seen disassembled, if you have pictures of the motherboard and connectors, I can give an opinion. I'm talking about pictures, not drawing from hardware maintenance manual.

If you don't see anything wrong in over a decade of decline in design and build quality, there's really not much for us to talk about.

fresh blood for the old vampires tpf I suppose?


not so soon

They only come out ever so often...

@aldimeola81:

Moderator warning:
please limit your posts to items that are partial for that thread.
Do NOT try to argument points of view that you do not understand (either because of language, or otherwise) or even ignore!

ajkula Wake Up!
There was an incredible drop in hardware sales in the past 10 years, IBM had figured out in advance, and sold everything before the big boom.

Dell has failed, even Hp, acer is under water, even apple is in trouble ', and intel has big problems. all hardware manufacturers have started producing garbage and you say that the thinkpad have lost quality?

in all these years, Lenovo has earned the top spot in the world such as computer sales, a third as smartphones, has bought iomega, and the motorola by google.

I'm definitely not at your level engineer, I disassembled only 3 thinkpads in the last 3 days, and God knows how many I have repaired over the years, but I have not seen a screen of a thinkpad fill lines, a hinge locked cracking screen or chassis.I have not seen the crappy connectors that use all laptop manufacturers in the world, including apple, dell and hp, connectors that are destroyed after the third removal, those crappy white flat cables that are not worth a penny , never seen those motherboards with blue colored PCB that all manufacturers use, which is not even written the name of the installed components, do not I see the socket for the memories made entirely of plastic, I have not seen those cheap cooling fans all made of plastic, keyboards by 2 cents, dismounting with 800 wires running under the keyboard, wiring confusing, and so on.

this meant to say that I recognize a good product to crap.

you apparently want to stay on the generic , ok, buy a dell or hp, they have remained faithful to their traditional workstation:-D

http://product-images.www8-hp.com/digme ... 105006.png

http://blogs.windows.com/cfs-file.ashx/ ... 88644F.jpg

It's clear that aldimeola81 focuses on the innards, whereas ajkula66 emphasizes the external design, user experience, and quality check. That's why so far you guys haven't connected!

aldimeola81 wrote:in all these years, Lenovo has earned the top spot in the world such as computer sales, a third as smartphones, has bought iomega, and the motorola by google.

The main reason for this is Lenovo has the best access to the most rapidly growing market in the world: China. Lenovo's financial success says virtually nothing about the merits of its products.

aldimeola81 wrote:you apparently want to stay on the generic , ok, buy a dell or hp, they have remained faithful to their traditional workstation:-D

http://product-images.www8-hp.com/digme ... 105006.png

http://blogs.windows.com/cfs-file.ashx/ ... 88644F.jpg

I am 100% sure that ajkula66 was aware of these ultrabook-like "business-class" Dells and HPs. He was saying you need to compare classic-style Thinkpads with classic-style Elitebooks, Precisions, and Latitudes.

Take a look at this guys channel, he shows a bit of innards an everything, and compares Lenovo, HP and Dell workstations.

It's no contest, the Lenovo has nothing going for it:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Jeeppatriotchannel/videos

RealBlackStuff wrote:@aldimeola81:

Moderator warning:
please limit your posts to items that are partial for that thread.
Do NOT try to argument points of view that you do not understand (either because of language, or otherwise) or even ignore!

when a moderator offends you is the height of impropriety, congratulations. I had to write on an American forum to go that far

RBS,
I do think it was a bit uncalled for.

aldimeola81,
Please don't take more offense than needed. I am sure no one meant any personal attacks against you.

It's good to have you on the forum, and I for one, even though I disagree with you on some points, would be disappointed if you left. I think the forum benefits from having many users, from different countries and with different opinions.

And all'ya guys - please do try to stay on topic and don't start petty arguments on who has disassembled more laptops, has better technical skills or more academic degrees.

dr_st wrote:RBS,
I do think it was a bit uncalled for.

aldimeola81,
Please don't take more offense than needed. I am sure no one meant any personal attacks against you.

It's good to have you on the forum, and I for one, even though I disagree with you on some points, would be disappointed if you left. I think the forum benefits from having many users, from different countries and with different opinions.

And all'ya guys - please do try to stay on topic and don't start petty arguments on who has disassembled more laptops, has better technical skills or more academic degrees.

Fortunately I do not need confirmation on a forum about my competence and intelligence , so I'm not offended .


it is not my intention to leave, thanks anyway.


I do not think I'm an expert, while having direct experience in precision electronics , working on computers and systems by more ' than 10 years and repairing machines from € 15,000 in the first person every day.

I think maybe an expert can ' say the person who designs a motherboard, ( but I'm sure it's a team , not an individual) , who calculates the mechanical strength of the chassis of a laptop, the person who designs the rollcage aware that it is a metal body 2 mm away from an electronic circuit , who is able to optimize the assembly and connections facilitating all the work of the assembly . here we are just fans of a brand, nothing more.

when I see a machine state of the art , as can 'be a thinkpad , I see all the work done behind , looking at maybe the detail of the keyboard cable , protective stickers glued to the motherboard , the thread lock on the screws , adhesive copper on bottom ventilation holes formed under the bga , names of components on the motherboard , fuses, connections of class A, facilitates ' disassembly and reassembly , I think the work that is behind it, and respect that machine and who has designed / built .

excuse me if I'm wrong .

First of all, let's start by the most important - as well as truthful - statement that has been written in this thread so far...

pianowizard wrote:
The main reason for this is Lenovo has the best access to the most rapidly growing market in the world: China. Lenovo's financial success says virtually nothing about the merits of its products.

All I can say is that I agree with it 10,000% and wouldn't have been able to express it better myself.

Now, let's try to bring some benign humour back here by me stating that I'm old enough to have actually seen the Al DiMeola perform live with McLaughlin and Paco De Lucia twice...

Back to clearing some points brought up in the previous posts...

aldimeola81 wrote:
ajkula Wake Up!

My good man, I've been up and awake from 4.30 am EST...what more do you want from me?

I'm definitely not at your level engineer,

Here we go with the irony/sarcasm again. The only field where I rightfully hold a title of an engineer has absolutely nothing to do with the ThinkPads. When I got my degree, Atari 1024 ST was all the rage in that walk of life...

but I have not seen a screen of a thinkpad fill lines, a hinge locked cracking screen or chassis.

Well, some of us have seen both on multitude of occasions when it comes to ThinkPads. I'll just say that you've been lucky so far.

this meant to say that I recognize a good product to crap.

As do most of us around here. You're on the world's oldest ThinkPad forum, remember?

you apparently want to stay on the generic , ok, buy a dell or hp, they have remained faithful to their traditional workstation

I've owned both Dell and HP workstation-grade laptops and would say that they can withstand the comparison with their ThinkPad counterparts exceptionally well. If I need to elaborate, by all means feel free to ask and I will do so.

I had to write on an American forum to go that far

This statement was completely uncalled for. Most of the members who have responded in this thread are not Americans to begin with. I, for one, am not. No need to offend forum's owner Bill Morrow who IS an American, and who has kept this lovely place running through thick and thin. Thankfully, Bill is too much of a gentleman to take an offense for something along those lines...

Where I see that Lenovo went wrong? What generation of models would you like me to elaborate on? Being dead serious here.

IBM went wrong first a decade ago, by moving the production out of Mexico and UK, and taking the tremendous hit in the QC department right then and there.

A couple of my pet peeves with Lenovo's current and/or recent ThinkPad line-ups...

a) A workstation is not supposed to succumb to throttling when pushed hard. This problem has been present since W510, and is escalating on the current W540 without any reasonable explanation from Lenovo. In all fairness, similar issues have been reported with current HPs, but not Dells. BTW, no throttling issues have been present on HP's ranges that match the W510/520/530 series...

b) I really, truly believed that we were done with soldered-on RAM when X24 went the way of the dodo bird. Alas, I was wrong.

c) Non-removable batteries? Seriously? One of the things that I despised on Macs now made its way into the ThinkPad range.

d) QC. Good Lord...do we really need hundreds of people bricking their W540 motherboards by installing Samsung 840 Pro SSDs for Lenovo to release a BIOS update that stops this problem from occurring? Sub-standard screens from LG (X220/30, T440p/s). Speaker noise on T440s.

Could I go on? Heck yeah. Ad nauseam. But I'm certain that everyone got a pretty good idea at this point...

dr_st wrote:

And all'ya guys - please do try to stay on topic and don't start petty arguments on who has disassembled more laptops, has better technical skills or more academic degrees.

Well, in all fairness, OP has pretty much brought that on himself with the following statement:

I'm a hardware technician authorized sharp office automation , I know I recognize well-designed products to products built with only one thing in mind : the budget .

An approach slightly more humble would've spared him from feeling unwelcome on this horrible American forum...

With that said, I do want OP to stick around. There's always a lot to learn around here.

Since he likes the current Lenovo lineup unlike the majority of us elders, he'll be an asset to new members looking for advice regarding these machines.

All I could say to them would be to return the darn things to Lenovo. I'm certain that he'll be able to do better than that.

I agree, aldimeola81 joined very recently, and we have already solved the overheating issues of the W510 (by his initiative), and maybe the W520 too.

Quite debut I must say, so please stick around.

But we do like to discuss things around here.

It's like the transition from air-cooled Porsche 911's to water-cooled 911's...
People liked it, purists did not.
It was just not a motor being changed, but bland interior and component sharing with the cheaper Boxter made it less desired.
I mean mechanically a newer 911 will be better than an old 911 in alot of aspects.
But an old 911 will still have its quirks that have been fixed or removed that were great.

Anyways, I hope there will be another bento box ThinkPad again.