Thinkpads Forum

I am almost done refurbishing a T400 (4GB RAM, switchable graphics, 9-cell battery) that I will be using for school. I have a chance to swap it (for no extra cost) to a X61 that I will upgrade to 8GB of RAM (is this compatible?), an 8-cell battery and a Crucial BX100 256GB SSD.
Usage will be typical schoolwork (browsing, writing documents etc.), nothing more intense.
The performance gap isn't too large (I think), and the X61 would certainly be more portable. Should I switch?

As you have said, the portability of the X61 is handy for school, and the performance difference isn't large, especially when just web browsing and typing documents. Youtube should not be an issue either. However, X61 (non-tablet models) only come with XGA 1024x768 resolution screens, which can be limiting at times.

The ram you linked should work fine, but the brand seems to be unknown. The low price compared to other similar name brand modules also raises some concerns on the reliability front.

brchan wrote:As you have said, the portability of the X61 is handy for school, and the performance difference isn't large, especially when just web browsing and typing documents. Youtube should not be an issue either. However, X61 (non-tablet models) only come with XGA 1024x768 resolution screens, which can be limiting at times.

The ram you linked should work fine, but the brand seems to be unknown. The low price compared to other similar name brand modules also raises some concerns on the reliability front.

True, the resolution isn't very high, but I don't think I'll do more than one thing at a time on a 12" screen...

About the RAM- are there any 2X4 GB kits that you would recommend?

For the ram, Crucial, Corsair, Samsung, and Hynix are great, with Crucial in particular. Hynix and Samsung are commonly shipped in many laptops from the factory.

Just remember that 4GB ddr2 modules are very expensive, so an 8GB kit can easily set you back over $100 on a machine that is probably worth 3/4 that amount. Also, if you are just doing web browsing, youtube, and office, there really should not be a need for 8GB ram. In fact, I can do android development with emulators no problem with just 4GB.

brchan wrote:For the ram, Crucial, Corsair, Samsung, and Hynix are great, with Crucial in particular. Hynix and Samsung are commonly shipped in many laptops from the factory.

Just remember that 4GB ddr2 modules are very expensive, so an 8GB kit can easily set you back over $100 on a machine that is probably worth 3/4 that amount. Also, if you are just doing web browsing, youtube, and office, there really should not be a need for 8GB ram. In fact, I can do android development with emulators no problem with just 4GB.

So if I stick with 4GB, is this kit any good?

NadavCE wrote: So if I stick with 4GB, is this kit any good?

It will be fine. Quite expensive, though.

I'm fairly certain that if you were to post a WTB (want to buy) ad in the forum's Marketplace you could do better. It's not like shipping is going to be terribly expensive for 2 DIMMs.

My concern about the X61 would be the condition of the battery given the machine's age. You've just put in a new one in the T400...honestly I'd stick with that.

My $0.02 only...

ajkula66 wrote: It will be fine. Quite expensive, though.

I'm fairly certain that if you were to post a WTB (want to buy) ad in the forum's Marketplace you could do better. It's not like shipping is going to be terribly expensive for 2 DIMMs.

My concern about the X61 would be the condition of the battery given the machine's age. You've just put in a new one in the T400...honestly I'd stick with that.

My $0.02 only...

To avoid confusion, I might as well detail my whole plan.


I currently have a T400 with 4GB of RAM, an SSD and a 9-cell battery on the way. I found an X61 for a very low price, and selling my T400 for a reasonable price would cover the cost of the X61, a new battery and the RAM upgrade.

IMO, the X61 would be a better fit for my usage as it offers similar performance and weighs a kilogram less.

If you are happy with the x61 you are looking at and know that you can get the money back for upgrades, then go for it. I would probably get the x61 if it is in good condition and give it 4GB ram. If you have an external monitor, then the screen resolution should not be too much of an issue.

NadavCE wrote:

To avoid confusion, I might as well detail my whole plan.


I currently have a T400 with 4GB of RAM, an SSD and a 9-cell battery on the way. I found an X61 for a very low price, and selling my T400 for a reasonable price would cover the cost of the X61, a new battery and the RAM upgrade.

I'm not certain that X61 - presuming a T7*** Merom CPU which are the most common ones in there - will give you the battery life that you're looking for. These machines are hot-running and not in the least power-efficient. X61s - if you can find one - would be a better choice IMO.

With all of that said, something along the lines of X200/s would be my preferred system in your set of circumstances, and these are dirt cheap nowadays.

Good luck.

ajkula66 wrote: I'm not certain that X61 - presuming a T7*** Merom CPU which are the most common ones in there - will give you the battery life that you're looking for. These machines are hot-running and not in the least power-efficient. X61s - if you can find one - would be a better choice IMO.

With all of that said, something along the lines of X200/s would be my preferred system in your set of circumstances, and these are dirt cheap nowadays.

Good luck.

Thanks so much for mentioning the X61s! I checked and there is an X61s with a good condition battery bring sold in my city for ~15$ more than the X61 I was considering! I'll probably go for that if I can find a buyer for my T400 and if not, I'll just use the T400.
Just another question- does the X61s use standard-size 2.5" HDDs?

NadavCE wrote: Just another question- does the X61s use standard-size 2.5" HDDs?

Yes.

You will have to flash Middleton's BIOS in order to enable SATA II speeds, though - but that's a piece of cake.

ajkula66 wrote:
You will have to flash Middleton's BIOS in order to enable SATA II speeds, though - but that's a piece of cake.

How would I go about doing that? Is there a guide I can use?

I have both machines, the X61s variant.

The T400, which uses the 45nm Penryn with vanadium doping, is much more efficient. At idle, the power consumptions are similar. Under load, an X61s gets hot fast. So you can't expect comparable battery times. Under light usage -- text viewing on the web, and word processing, 4.5 - 5 hours out of a full battery is reasonable. The Windows power scheme must be carefully thought out. With a low power scheme, and a Crystal video decoder in the empty pci-e slot, I have viewed hidef on battery at a cost of about 1/2% of battery capacity/minute of video.

The screen of the X61s - I'm familiar with the Maxbrite version - is qualitatively better than the 1440x900 screen in my T400. My X61s screens have better viewing angle, contrast, and brightness.

I prefer to carry an X61s. In my opinion, it is still one of the great walk-around choices. The screen resolution is not high, but unless your vision is really good, a higher res screen requires hunching up to see it all. With the X61s screen, you can set up practically anywhere and go to work. The 4:3 aspect ratio is great for word processing. It has more screen area, measured in square inches, than the X200. Batteries are cheap and good:http://www.ebay.com/itm/261635756410?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT
Carry a spare to swap.

The Middleton BIOS gives freedom to use the empty pci-e slot for a Broadcom "Crystal" video decoder.

precip9 wrote:I have both machines, the X61s variant.

The T400, which uses the 45nm Penryn with vanadium doping, is much more efficient. At idle, the power consumptions are similar. Under load, an X61s gets hot fast. So you can't expect comparable battery times. Under light usage -- text viewing on the web, and word processing, 4.5 - 5 hours out of a full battery is reasonable. The Windows power scheme must be carefully thought up. With a low power scheme, and a Crystal video decoder in the empty pci-e slot, I have viewed hidef on battery at a cost of about 1/2% of battery capacity/minute of video.

The screen of the X61s - I'm familiar with the Maxbrite version - is qualitatively better than the 1440x900 screen in my T400. My X61s screens have better viewing angle, contrast, and brightness.

I prefer to carry an X61s. In my opinion, it is still one of the great walk-around choices. The screen resolution is not high, but unless your vision is really good, a higher res screen requires hunching up to see it all. With the X61s screen, you can set up practically anywhere and go to work. The 4:3 aspect ratio is great for word processing. It has more screen area, measured in square inches, than the X200. Batteries are cheap and good:http://www.ebay.com/itm/261635756410?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT
Carry a spare to swap.

The Middleton BIOS gives freedom to use the empty pci-e slot for a Broadcom "Crystal" video decoder.

Thanks for the in-depth answer! I may not even be browsing, so under the following usage:

Screen brightness 40%, Wifi/Bluetooth off, word processing.

With a battery-friendly SSD (Crucial BX100) and 8-cell battery, do I have a shot to get around 7.5 hours of use?

NadavCE wrote:
Thanks for the in-depth answer! I may not even be browsing, so under the following usage:

Screen brightness 40%, Wifi/Bluetooth off, word processing.

With a battery-friendly SSD (Crucial BX100) and 8-cell battery, do I have a shot to get around 7.5 hours of use?

At 40%, I think 7.5 hours is beyond even a well conditioned battery. At 40%, backlight is a significant draw. But I have never tried a use scenario similar to your description, such as 20% backlight, no radios, no browsing, miserly power scheme. Maybe close...
For $16, an extra battery will give you 9-10 hours of more typical use.

precip9 wrote:

NadavCE wrote:
Thanks for the in-depth answer! I may not even be browsing, so under the following usage:

Screen brightness 40%, Wifi/Bluetooth off, word processing.

With a battery-friendly SSD (Crucial BX100) and 8-cell battery, do I have a shot to get around 7.5 hours of use?

At 40%, I think 7.5 hours is beyond even a well conditioned battery. At 40%, backlight is a significant draw. But I have never tried a use scenario similar to your description, such as 20% backlight, no radios, no browsing, miserly power scheme. Maybe close...
For $16, an extra battery will give you 9-10 hours of more typical use.

That's what I might have to do then... Or just charge it during breaks and between lessons. Does the X61s charge quickly?

Also, I can use my T400 in normal daylight with the brightness at 3/15. Is the X61s' screen brighter than the T400's (I have the standard, cheapo 1280x800 one).

NadavCE wrote:
That's what I might have to do then... Or just charge it during breaks and between lessons. Does the X61s charge quickly?

Also, I can use my T400 in normal daylight with the brightness at 3/15. Is the X61s' screen brighter than the T400's (I have the standard, cheapo 1280x800 one).

I think the charging is limited by what Lenovo considered appropriate at that time for lithium battery safety. This was back in the day when lithium battery recalls were prime news. Dell then advertised 2 hour charging. Then Dell's batteries blew up in multiple news events. Lenovo defended by stating that their batteries charged in 4 hours, not 2, so it couldn't happen to them. Then some of Lenovo's batteries blew up. But arguably, with lithium batteries of the time, accidents were avoided by not pushing the limits of charging speed.

Summary: the charging times for the 9 cell T400 battery and the 8 cell X60/61 battery have not been observed by me to be markedly different. But now and then, external Thinkpad chargers show up on eBay. These will charge both X61 and T400 batteries:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-ThinkPad ... 1808958654

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ThinkPad-IBM-Le ... 2a54a88cbe

My impression is that the X61s Maxbrite screen is significantly brighter than my T400 1440x900 screen. But perhaps the backlight in my T400 is worn. As another point, the X61s screen seems to have much less shift with angle than the T400 screen.

precip9 wrote:

NadavCE wrote:
That's what I might have to do then... Or just charge it during breaks and between lessons. Does the X61s charge quickly?

Also, I can use my T400 in normal daylight with the brightness at 3/15. Is the X61s' screen brighter than the T400's (I have the standard, cheapo 1280x800 one).

I think the charging is limited by what Lenovo considered appropriate at that time for lithium battery safety. This was back in the day when lithium battery recalls were prime news. Dell then advertised 2 hour charging. Then Dell's batteries blew up in multiple news events. Lenovo defended by stating that their batteries charged in 4 hours, not 2, so it couldn't happen to them. Then some of Lenovo's batteries blew up. But arguably, with lithium batteries of the time, accidents were avoided by not pushing the limits of charging speed.

Summary: the charging times for the 9 cell T400 battery and the 8 cell X60/61 battery have not been observed by me to be markedly different. But now and then, external Thinkpad chargers show up on eBay. These will charge both X61 and T400 batteries:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-ThinkPad ... 1808958654

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ThinkPad-IBM-Le ... 2a54a88cbe

My impression is that the X61s Maxbrite screen is significantly brighter than my T400 1440x900 screen. But perhaps the backlight in my T400 is worn. As another point, the X61s screen seems to have much less shift with angle than the T400 screen.

Great, thanks. So if the X61s' screen is brighter, I could use it on minimum brightness (1-0/15) and with radios off I could certainly achieve 7 hours.

NadavCE wrote: Great, thanks. So if the X61s' screen is brighter, I could use it on minimum brightness (1-0/15) and with radios off I could certainly achieve 7 hours.

Please don't interpret my remarks with such certainty. I would be sorry to hear of your disappointment on my account. My recommendation is biased by notes of my personal usage:

1. I've actually used the X61s as a classroom student. The form factor is very beneficial. It fits very nicely on the tiny folding desk platform that is a part of most classroom chairs. I would never think of putting a T400 on that little desk surface, because the rubber feet would not make contact. I am afraid the laptop would end up on the floor.

2. In my school setting, outlets for charging, and sometimes actual use, were widely available.

3. I didn't want to sling a T400 around all day. It just seemed superfluous for my patterns of use.

The T400 ended up the least used of my Thinkpad collection. The X61s, or the X61T, are my walk-around companions. The W500 is for heavy lifting. So I lent the T400 of which I speak to my bro.

precip9 wrote:

NadavCE wrote: Great, thanks. So if the X61s' screen is brighter, I could use it on minimum brightness (1-0/15) and with radios off I could certainly achieve 7 hours.

Please don't interpret my remarks with such certainty. I would be sorry to hear of your disappointment on my account. My recommendation is biased by notes of my personal usage:

1. I've actually used the X61s as a classroom student. The form factor is very beneficial. It fits very nicely on the tiny folding desk platform that is a part of most classroom chairs. I would never think of putting a T400 on that little desk surface, because the rubber feet would not make contact. I am afraid the laptop would end up on the floor.

2. In my school setting, outlets for charging, and sometimes actual use, were widely available.

3. I didn't want to sling a T400 around all day. It just seemed superfluous for my patterns of use.

The T400 ended up the least used of my Thinkpad collection. The X61s, or the X61T, are my walk-around companions. The W500 is for heavy lifting. So I lent the T400 of which I speak to my bro.

I apologize for misinterpreting your comment. I concur with your opinion about lugging the T400 around- believe me, I certainly wouldn't want to carry a 2.5 Kg brick either. My comment was an estimation (also based on experience with laptops) and a presumption that having the screen at minimum brightness and radios off while word processing ensures maximum runtime, and Thinkpads are well-regarded in this area.

As much as i like the X61 a X201 would probably be better or even a X220.

Since you are in Israel, get an X220. It was the Israeli arm of Intel that designed the Sandy Bridge i5/i7 processor.

NadavCE wrote: I apologize for misinterpreting your comment. I concur with your opinion about lugging the T400 around- believe me, I certainly wouldn't want to carry a 2.5 Kg brick either. My comment was an estimation (also based on experience with laptops) and a presumption that having the screen at minimum brightness and radios off while word processing ensures maximum runtime, and Thinkpads are well-regarded in this area.

This review of the X61s, http://www.notebookreview.com/notebookr ... 1s-review/
actually measures 6:33 with wifi on. So your projected battery life may not be unrealistic, although the X61s is different from the unit specified in your swap, a regular X61. And this was with a brand-new Lenovo battery. Although I suggest the use of cheap 3rd party batteries, they can't actually match the capacity a fresh-no-shelf-sitter Lenovo battery. They're just better values in $/watt-hour.

Dekks wrote:As much as i like the X61 a X201 would probably be better or even a X220.

Hans Gruber wrote:Since you are in Israel, get an X220. It was the Israeli arm of Intel that designed the Sandy Bridge i5/i7 processor.

I really would like an X220. However, the X61s still does what I need it to do. The X2** series may have more processing power but (for my usage) inferior screens. Add to that the fact that they easily cost double or triple an X61s where I live, they're not an option.

precip9 wrote:
This review of the X61s, http://www.notebookreview.com/notebookr ... 1s-review/
actually measures 6:33 with wifi on. So your projected battery life may not be unrealistic, although the X61s is different from the unit specified in your swap, a regular X61. And this was with a brand-new Lenovo battery. Although I suggest the use of cheap 3rd party batteries, they can't actually match the capacity a fresh-no-shelf-sitter Lenovo battery. They're just better values in $/watt-hour.

Actually, I found an X61s for about the same price as the X61 I saw so I'll be going for that.

I'd make you an X61s offer you couldn't refuse, except shipping costs ($63) from USA to Israel are prohibitive.
Not knowing your import duties either, who knows...

RealBlackStuff wrote:I'd make you an X61s offer you couldn't refuse, except shipping costs ($63) from USA to Israel are prohibitive.
Not knowing your import duties either, who knows...

Wow, thanks so much! Unfortunately, import taxes are:
[(Price of the product + shipping) x 1.15] x 1.18. Add to that a few $$ (or even $$$ in some cases) because of corrupt customs officers, and I'd rather not risk it.
Again, thanks so much, I really appreciate it!

Okay, so I may be able to get the X220 after all. However, I also found a 12-cell battery for the X61s that's cheaper than a genuine 8-cell (link[/url), and suposedly gets ~11 hours of moderate usage ([url=http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=81739]link to the thread here) The prices are:

X220 (i5, 4GB RAM): 1500 N.I.S. (~400$) + genuine 9-cell battery: 250 N.I.S. (~60$).

X61s: 500 N.I.S (~130$) + RAM upgrade to 4GB: 125 N.I.S. (~45$) + 12-cell battery: 250 N.I.S. (~65$).

I already have an SSD, so whichever machine it will be will receive it.

Total
X220: 460$
X61s: 240$

A few questions:
1) Can the X220 get similar battery life to the 12-cell X61s with it's 9-cell battery?
2) Is the performance difference/logevity worth the price difference?

The X220 with a 9-cell battery would be comparable to the X61/12 cell.
The X220 processor is a tock and a tick ( 1 1/2 generations, I think), newer than the Core 2 duo in the X61s. So it is considerably more advanced.

The choice becomes highly personal. For example, you may have better eyes than I do, allowing you to see the somewhat compressed X220 screen more clearly than I do. On the other hand, my carry-to-NYC machine is an X61 tablet, with a Hydis FFS 1400x1050 screen. It really is hard to see, though if I want to read on the train, I can use it as a tablet. I carry it because of a special interest: I like to draw. The FFS screen is something special for all visual/art uses.

For classroom use, I like the X61 more, because it will fit on the folding desktop with less chance of falling off, and it has more screen square inches.

But perhaps there is some "casual game" you like to play. If the game uses some kind of crude motion graphics that an X220/X61s can even play, the X220 will play it better.

On the other hand again, the Middleton BIOS for the X61s removes the whitelist, so you can put "ac" adapters, and/or a video decoder, in the two pci-e slots.

On the other hand again, on those tiny, slippery folding desktops, I like to feel that I can replace/rebuild a machine easily after a drop. So I have spare covers, chassis, cheap stuff, so I won't cry too hard if the X61s takes a fall.

On the other hand, if you are a developer, the i5 has better hardware for virtual machine use. It has double-buffered translation lookaside tables, which makes possible a completely virtualized display. This particular feature of the i5 has no advantage other than with virtual machines.

The i5 plays video more efficiently, though I find that the Broadcom Crystal decoder in the 2nd pci-e slot of my X61s closes this gap. Since I don't have the two machines for comparison, I don't know whether it closes the gap partially or completely.

If I had only enough money to buy one laptop, I might go for the X220. If I could save enough money with the X61s to have two, I'd go for the X61s.

In another thread, someone apparently thought of these older machines as slow. There really isn't much difference in boot/load times. It depends more on the hard disk. I use a fast one. See below. The comparison is between an X61 tablet running Windows 7, and an X61s with Windows 8.1. The X61 tablet has the same processor as the X61s:

X61T with 8G RAM, Seagate Momentus XT750 hybrid hard drive
X61s (nontablet) with 8G RAM, 256GB SSD
X61T                              X61 (non tablet)
cold start:                  35s to logon screen            20s to fingerprint
                                 45s to fingerprint                 1s to desktop
shutdown:                  15s                                   20s
suspend to RAM:         5s                                    11s
wakeup from RAM:      6s to fingerprint                   3s to desktop
load Firefox:               3s                                      8s
load Reuters:            <1s                                    <1s
load Windows mail:     5s                                       2s
load Photoshop CS2:   22s                                     14s
hibernate:                  28s                                     15s
wakeup from 
   hibernate:               35s                                     25s

Thanks so much for the detailed answer! Since I am going to be using the machine for three years, and I was accepted into a programming class, I'll go for the X220. The faster CPU and cheaper RAM (should I need to upgrade) are enough to justify the cost, not to mention the improvements Sandy Bridge made over older, 1st series Core-i processors (to say nothing of the Core-2 series).

NadavCE wrote: I really would like an X220. However, the X61s still does what I need it to do. The X2** series may have more processing power but (for my usage) inferior screens.

For what you describe as similar to office type usage?