Thinkpads Forum

After many years of Thinkpad loyalty, I start to wonder which way Lenovo is taking the brand.

After weeks of searching in vain, I have all but given up on finding a T60p 2.33MHz with Core 2 Duo CPU *and* UXGA display.

The latest systems only seem to offer (W)SXGA displays and that with a meager 128MB graphic's card.

I find this unacceptable and at this point I'm thinking seriously of abandoning the Thinkpad brand alltogether.

Dell offers WUXGA systems with 4GB RAM built in and 6USB ports.

And pleaaaseee, no more nonsense about Dell being "game only" systems.

My own cousin uses his Dell laptop for very serious work all day long.

I really don't understand why Lenovo is doing this...

Perhaps you should voice your grievances on Lenovo's blog. Your complaints would be more apt to be noticed by the right people over there. OTOH, if you are just looking for a sympathetic ear, you should find one here. Personally, I have not seen a UXGA display and I am not sure I would want one if the text is as small as I imagine (I want to stay with the 14.1", 4:3, form factor).

http://lenovoblogs.com/

Unfortunately, UXGA Flexview screen suppliers have all but vanished.

Lenovo could easily stick some crappy UXGA panels on the T60p, but they prefer to put the quality Flexview panels, even if it means SXGA+.

If I was to get a T60p, I'd much rather to have SXGA+ Flexview versus UXGA non-Flexview, and so Lenovo's decision seems logical to me.

But to each his own.

Listen folks, I know that this forum has many die hard Thinkpadders who would (for whatever reason) even applaud a banana box with a TP logo on it.
I know the same frenetic loyalty from Apple forums and forums dedicated to other brand names.

But to claim that a 14" SXGA display is supposedly superior to a 15" UXGA is just not intellectually honest.

I assume that if Lenovo should stop offering 160GB disks you would agree with them and argue that 100GB disks are just "better quality".

Why should e.g. any font be less readable on a 15" UXGA display than it is on a 14" SXGA???
That makes no sense. Or do you also reject a Big Screen TV because you claim the image on your portable TV is just that much better??

Fact is that people chose higher resolution displays exactly because they offer better quality, sharper images and better anti-aliasing.

The simple fact is that Lenovo screwed up BIG TIME if they truly decided to go even back to SXGA, while others like DELL have already moved on to WUXGA.

And please, don't even try to sell this move as yet another smart one by Lenovo to improve product quality, or next they'll start selling only 1GB systems to "improve memory management".

There is (brand) loyalty and then there is blindness or wilfull ignorance.
And by the way, what do you call one way loyalty, as I fail to see Lenovo holding up their end of the bargain here.
[censored], those DELL machines have 6 USB ports, 512MB dedicated graphic's cards and 4GB RAM built in.

I can't even buy an SXGA T60p with 4GB RAM built in.
I still would have to buy that extra RAM on my own and put it in.

I went to Lenovo's web site only to find out that I can't even "design" my own Core 2 Duo T60p with UXGA display no more.
And their RAM prices are just silly.

As more I think this over as more I'm afraid that IBM's sale of the brand to China was the first nail in the coffin of this brand.

I truly don't see myself downgrading back to SXGA.
I got used to much to my high resolution Desktop and since DELL even offers WUXGA, it would be silly of me to pay more for less.

I'd love to stick with the Thinkpad brand because of their security features. But aside from that, TPs have fallen behind on every other technology feature by now.
Interfaces, Display, Sound, Disk Capacity and don't even get me started on the quality of the units.

If I can't find a (W)UXGA Core 2 Duo 2.33 Thinkpad before my next project starts, then I'm a gonner here.
[censored], these boxes cost me up to $4000.-- with all the extras.

For that $$$ I'd expect at least the same display rez I already have on my T43p!!

Interfaces, Display, Sound, Disk Capacity and don't even get me started on the quality of the units.

No way. (excepting the bit about interfaces.)

The LG IPS 15" SXGA+ is the nicest Laptop LCD panel on the market right now, imo.

[censored], those DELL machines have 6 USB ports, 512MB dedicated graphic's cards and 4GB RAM built in.

My 17" Dell had a more capable graphics system than my desktop. It also created just as much heat, and ran on battery for about the same amount of time.

I understand that UXGA is what floats your boat. My arguement is that is just might not be for everybody. FYI I chose a 14.1" XGA display over a 14'1" SGXA+ display because of my concern over small fonts. Some users here have reported having difficulty reading the text on a 14.1" SGXA+ display. I can no longer read the fine print on many documents, or for instance the stock pages in the newspaper. I can read normal-sized text just fine. I realize others here do not have that problem. If my eyesight was good enough to read a high-resolution display without strain, then of course that would be my preference.

UXGA displays do have a user base that is very loyal. All the power to you to get what you expect for notebook features. Choice is always good. I do not think it's the replies you have received so far that carry a note of fanaticism...

Lazarus, I see that you want to rant on and on, because a particular something has disappointed you in the new Thinkpads. But to consider anyone who doesn't share your view on it a "blind fanboy" is also not "intellectually honest", as you put it.

But to claim that a 14" SXGA display is supposedly superior to a 15" UXGA is just not intellectually honest.

And who made such claims? GomJabbar merely mentioned that he'd rather stay at 14.1" form factor. From entirely different and obvious reasons. At this size, I understand why UXGA would be uncomfortable. WUXGA more so.

GomJabbar also suggested to you to speak your mind at the Lenovo Blogs, which is in fact a very good idea.

Fact is that people chose higher resolution displays exactly because they offer better quality, sharper images and better anti-aliasing.

The offer "potentially sharper" images, simply because you have more screen real-estate to generate and display a big image. A small 300x200 pic is going to look exactly as bad if you blow it up, whether on XGA or on QXGA. And just because a display is high-res does not automatically make it better quality. There are more features to a panel than just its resolution.

The simple fact is that Lenovo screwed up BIG TIME if they truly decided to go even back to SXGA, while others like DELL have already moved on to WUXGA.

You obviously did not comprehend (or did not pay attention) to what I said earlier. Lenovo is not the one making the LCD panels. They have to work with what they have. Everyone agrees that being healthy and rich is better than sick and poor, however you can't always get everything. Now, given the choice between a good SXGA+ panel and a crappy UXGA panel, I obviously prefer the former. Lenovo seems to think the same. You have different preferences, but even without a real survey, I'd assume that Lenovo's choice would be the right one for the majority of its customers.

[censored], those DELL machines have 6 USB ports, 512MB dedicated graphic's cards and 4GB RAM built in.

512MB graphics cards (I assume it's something in the class of a GeForce 7900) are not for laptops, but for huge overheating pseudo-laptops. 4GB RAM? That's nice, especially when the chipset limits you to 3GB. On the USB I agree with you, it's annoying to have only 2 (or 3), when others have more. But at least you can get a PCMCIA card to address this problem. You can't buy build quality as an addon card, though.

I got used to much to my high resolution Desktop and since DELL even offers WUXGA, it would be silly of me to pay more for less

You're not the only one. Many people are addicted to screen real-estate. That's why you see people asking about how to drive two (or three!) WUXGA monitors at the same time. I can totally understand that, even though I get by fine with my SXGA+ laptop and my SXGA desktop.

For what it's worth, there are Z61p laptops with WUXGA, and I assume that T60p wide may soon get WUXGA too (maybe T61p). So if that's what's most important to you, there's hope in the Thinkpad department yet.

For that $$$ I'd expect at least the same display rez I already have on my T43p!!

There's more to a laptop that just the resolution of the display.

The this statement from seeplus:

The LG IPS 15" SXGA+ is the nicest Laptop LCD panel on the market right now, imo.

That is just silly, plain & simple.
I have compared many an LCD display myself, side by side, and you can trash talk the competition all day long, but 2+2 still equals 4.
And an SXGA display can never, ever trump a WUXGA display in resolution or sharpness.
Not unless you accuse brand name companies like DELL of using absolute inferior components for assembly, which is just nuts as they wouldn't be top seller in that case.
I think for you folks ideology gets in the way of clear thought, and I wonder why because Lenovo doesn't even know any of us from Adam.

And why should I waste good bandwith with Blogging to Lenovo about this?
The management decision has obviously already been made, die hard Thinkpadders go along with it (as usual) and I got the confirmation I was looking for.

Time to get out of Dodge...

And folks, stop that self-serving BS about anyone else's laptops being >inferior pseudo laptops<
Dell or Panasonic produce high quality systems, that even the US military uses in the field!

Tens of thousands of students spend their meager $$ on DELL systems, not because they like to waste their lunch money, but because they get a good bang for the buck.
You people are living in total denial when you think the rest of the market shares your unfounded prejudices.

3 of my last 4 Thinkpads all had some kind of break down within weeks of purchase.
So that myth about the absolute superior Thinkpad quality as compensation for lacking features is just that A MYTH!

And also stop belitteling folks like me who want top tech specs for their top $ as "being addicted to screen real estate".
Its called being tech savy and also being reasonable with your health.
I'm over 40 and still don't need any glasses, despite me spending up to 10 hours a day starring at the screen.
I hope to keep it that way as long as possible and so I do not plan to ruin my eye sight with downgrading my grahpics, just to make silly excuses for Lenovo's lack of performance.

Did I mention that DELL's latest laptops also offer IEE interfaces?
Panasonic's Toughbooks can outdo Thinkpad's shock security system any time of the day.
Not to mention quality...

And that Z61 does not offer Core 2 DUO, most certainly not at 2.33GHz.

And yes, I'd love to see a WUXGA T6Xp, BUT I LOOKED AND READ FOR THAT ONE EVERYWHERE AND COULDN'T FIND ANY HINT ITS COMING!!

And the display on a laptop is the most important user interface there is.
I can bring my own mouse, I can even carry a spare flex keyboard.
But I can not lugg a spare monitor around with me and in most offices there isn't one left over either.
Least not one who is any easier on my eyes, as all the real good ones are always already taken.

Stop making excuses for Lenovo.
They're a bunch of Chinese semi-government officials who obviously couldn't care less about the Thinkpad brand.
They only bought the outfit to get access to the corporate customers and countless trade secrets.

SXGA is an insult and I have not found ONE SINGLE article about WUXGA displays on Thinkpads coming anytime soon anywhere.
And I googled for that one for days.
I'm not even mentioning the facts that most internal TP Disc Burners still can't handle + & - DVDs and they most certainly won't support BlueRay disks anytime soon.

High end TP costs me up to $4000.-- a pop. [censored] I can demand the best of the best for that kind of money and not some black piece of crap with keys falling of, LCD getting spotty and a 128MB graphics card that laughable.

And by the way, DELL's latest laptops, those supposed inferior CPU burners, run on average 1-2 hours longer than T60p, because they all come with 9 cell batteries standard.
My TP came with a 6 cell battery...

@Lazarus - Back it down a notch. Do it now.

Lazarus wrote:And folks, stop that self-serving BS about anyone else's laptops being >inferior pseudo laptops<
Dell or Panasonic produce high quality systems, that even the US military uses in the field!

Lazarus, I remember we had some disagreements in the past but this time, all I can say is BRAVO! While I still think that in general Thinkpads are better than other brands, I don't think the difference is as big as what most people on this forum claim. Just last month, after getting a T60, I had to choose between selling either my Dell Inspiron 6000 or T43, both of them about two years old. It took me no more than 5 minutes to decide: sell the T43. The Dell's WUXGA screen was obviously much better than the T43's SXGA+, and despite its wider dimensions, the Dell's chassis actually flexed less than the T43's. Yes, the T43 had a more solid keyboard, but this advantage was not as important as the other two.

Lazarus, the only thing I can recommend to you is to see a good psychiatrist, because you obviously just want to talk and not to listen. Either that or your English is so poor that you fail to understand half of the statements people here make and the other half you understand wrong.

I'm saddened by this display of dogmatism. On one hand, there are all manner of reasons that some other manufacturers do some things better (eg. Fujitu has some of the best current HDDs going, Panasonic has some very well-built notebooks out there..albeit at prices similar to ThinkPads of 7 years ago), but all in all, ThinkPads are very good to excellent whole-package for the money machines that most everyone here loves.

and good grief Lazarus!?! what were you expecting? There would be a reason that the Forum is ThinkPad Forum.

nonny wrote:@Lazarus - Back it down a notch. Do it now.

Or else WHAT?!!
I don't respond well to threats, indeed I tend to do just the opposite of what I'm supposed to be intimidated into doing.

dr_st wrote:Lazarus, the only thing I can recommend to you is to see a good psychiatrist...Either that or your English is so poor

How about you check your own spelling first before belittling others?
Or even better, take your patronizing attitude and shuff it where the rest of Lenovo's market share is already headed.

schen wrote:I'm saddened by this display of dogmatism...
and good grief Lazarus!?! what were you expecting? ... the Forum is ThinkPad Forum.

Yes, you are right that it was foolish of me to expect from to many folks in here to be able to accept objective criticism of their beloved Thinkpad brand.

But for me my computer is just that. A machine.
Not a supplement for any perceived shortcomings of personality.
So I really don't care that much if it gets criticized, as I don't take it personal.
Its just a [censored] machine to me, not more not less.
And if it doesn't work up to specs, then I don't mind switching in a heartbeat.
Heck I just dropped the Operating System I stuck with for almost a dozen years, because I finally ran into problems I could no longer overcome with "tips & tricks".

If it ain't working, it ain't working and I don't care whose name is on it.
I never bought any tech gadget of mine because of the brand name stamped on it.
Always only because of the technical specs.

So I assumed that something as obvious as a display downgrade while all others are upgrading theirs, would at least worry those who truly are concerned with the survival of the Thinkpad brand.

Because the overall market has surely already given up on Thinkpads some time ago and simply playing "dumb & deaf" isn't helping with this.

But then again, I got my confirmation nevertheless.
Lenovo has given up on tech leadership with Thinkpads and there are just enough "dogmatists" left for them to keep up this nonsense beyond the point of no return.

Time to get out of Dodge...

PS: And I don't even like Dell's touchpad or their keyboard. But I love my eyes even more...

Lazarus wrote:

nonny wrote:@Lazarus - Back it down a notch. Do it now.

Or else WHAT?!!

nonny is an admin who could all sorts of things.

In most of your posts since you joined us, there has been an angry and bitter tone that can easily offend people. There are other, more civilized ways to say the same things.

Lazarus wrote:So I assumed that something as obvious as a display downgrade while all others are upgrading theirs, would at least worry those who truly are concerned with the survival of the Thinkpad brand.

As far as resolution is concerned, other brands have also been reducing the resolution of their laptop displays. Look at Dell. They used to offer WUXGA for 15.4" screens (e.g. my Inspiron 6000), but now they only have WSXGA+ for those screens and reserve WUXGA for 17" screens. Apple's Macbook Pro's are even worse. I guess laptops with superf high DPI's just don't sell well. Some people like you and me love high-DPI screens, but most people don't.

Lazarus wrote:

nonny wrote:@Lazarus - Back it down a notch. Do it now.

Or else WHAT?!!
I don't respond well to threats, indeed I tend to do just the opposite of what I'm supposed to be intimidated into doing.

Or else the thread gets locked, like I just did.

If you'd like to stay a part of this forum, then you need to tone it down. As previously stated, nonny is an admin, please show her some respect as well as the other members of this forum.

FYI to all readers..

IRT Lazarus.. he has been suspended by an admin who could not take his hyperbole' any longer..

whether he will be back or not is up to him..
he MUST tone his rhetoric down a bit to be allowed back..
since there are no "paying members" (yet) or advertising (yet, but sooner than "paying members") he has no rights other than to be a gentleman..

and even he can not type, if you take a look at his lengthy posts..
(i do a poor job of typing, too)

he can not or will not read, either, as others pointed out..

SO, banned he is and from what i see his attitude to be he won't ask to be let back in..