Thinkpads Forum

howdy folks,

I've got a slightly unusual question...but hopefully it'll be a bit of enjoyable intellectual stimulation...

Living off-grid here in the cabin presents some different requirements and parameters than usual. For one thing, power-consumption is a BIG concern for anything we use; but most especially for anything that'll be on all the time.

Secondly, DSL isn't available here, only slow rural dialup; so we need to share a modem-connection between two laptops, and those move between 2 rooms.

I've been experimenting with a 3rd laptop as a combined connection/file server. It's an old P3 HP6000, and I have only an old 2-Wire 11mbps wifi card stuck in it, so it isn't fast; but I do have it sharing the dialup over wifi properly to both of us now.

Now that that part is working, we're wanting to shove some more functions onto that box.

Instead of burning discs on the Thinkpads in our laps, we'd like to make that 'server' laptop into a "disc-burning station" as well.

Secondly, we have between us several hundred Gb of mp3's, tech-book pdf's, modern-dance videos (my wife's work), etc., etc..

Rather than have to buy two expensive high-cap thinkpad drives; I'm thinking of putting one of those cheap external monster USB HD's (i.e. 500mb etc) onto that 3rd lappy, and run it as a file-server as well.

In regards to both the external HD, and an external DVDRW, that old HP6000 has a serious problem: it only has dog-slow USB-1 ports.

So it'd be horrible at serving 100MB files...lol...and I'm not sure I could even write a DVD at all over such a slow link...seems like it'd buffer-underflow and ruin the disc.

Thus this post, seeking advice.

I'm looking for a recommendation as to which models of old and cheap Thinkpads would "fit the bill" for this application.

The one surprisingly -good- thing about this junky old Omnibook 6000 is that it only draws 1.1 amps from 12vdc!

I found that hard to believe; but I've now measured it several times with my Fluke 36 true-RMS DC clamp-on.

That current-draw is while running and sharing the modem over the wifi; but with the screen off....which is the way it'll run 99% of the time.

Again, power-consumption is a #1 priority for this app; as it'll run 24hrs/day. Every watt-hour is precious; when you have to get it from either solar or diesel-fuel...both cost $$$ per wh.

So, the basic parameters for the older TP would be:

- must have min. LCD of 14", and be able to run win2k, i.e. support 256mb ram, and have a P3 or PM cpu.

- must be a real low-power machine.

- must be able to support a/b/g wifi (on pcmcia instead of internal is fine), and have a good 56k modem in it

- must be able to run a dvd-writer (either internally, or have the faster USB ports to run an external)

- the 'fast' USB ports are probably a 'must' anyway; due to the need to run that big fat external HD; unless someone knows of a way to run those lower-cost external drives from the internal IDE bus.

- must be cheap....the wife's a non-profit artist, and I'm retired.

Notes;

- I actually don't have any problem with internal DVDRW; but have been told that none of them have high burn-speed.

- The 14" lcd requirement is for my old eyes...but considering that 99% of the time the screen will be off, and considering that an X-series etc. might have much lower power-draw than a T-series...perhaps I should be thinking in terms of tolerating a 12" screen for the disc-burning operations (the only time I'll have to use the lcd)

While I've used several T-models, I am completely ignorant on X-series so far. Advice in this area (and hard data on power-consumption) would be much appreciated.

- Any hard data on how to power-down every possible internal device while still keeping win2k running and sharing the modem over wifi (and stripping/modifying win2k itself in any way that eliminates unnecessary disk-seeks etc), would also be greatly appreciated. I'd like to keep optimizing this until I've wrung every last milliamp from it.

thanks very much for advice, observations, comments, model-numbers, suggestions, etc..

Problem is... hi-speed usb + thinkpad = expensive. Especially 12" X-series ones. I think only the P-M and newer ones would fit the bill. BTW, the X30 and probably any P3-based laptop has only USB 1.1,

Notes on power:
The X31/32 w/ ATI 7000 gpu and the R51 with Intel graphics probably are the lowest. The other P-M based models (T4x, etc) incur about 1w for their higher end graphics. Which may not be a big deal.

You will want to undervolt using a software utility (for P-M) to get the lowest (they go down to 6w or so I think).

Atheros A/B/G wireless will cause an above average power penalty, of 2w or so. The driver relies on the CPU alot, which increases the power usage. Again, this may not matter much.

A desktop hard drive will eat a LOT of power. 10w, basically doubling your power usage. There is a WD "GreenDrive" that comes external, though. No idea how much better it is than an average drive.



I highly recommend just getting a base of a laptop, for money reasons. The idea is you'd only need a screen once, then you can set up neat remote control software like VNC or RDP to give you full access from another laptop. T40's are pretty common and cheap, and you can probably find plenty of T4x series with smashed screens and such on the cheap. The X3x/R5x are expensive/rarer.

Random thing I remembered: an R5x might have cheaper burners available as they don't use the super slim ones like the T4x's do. Oh, and Sysinternals filemon for disk usage.

ok, undervolt the cpu...made a note of that.

btw, can that be done on P3 machines? Or just PM's?

I don't think I really want a P4 machine. Never had good luck with those back when...

but aren't those X30's you mentioned a P4 ?

I recall seeing ads for T30's that said P4.

Atheros: huh...so the 'desirable' wifi card is a power-hog, eh? Thanks for that...I hadn't known.

Well, I don't need the better RF range of the Atheros anyway...since all boxes will be within 30' of each other all the time.

Since every watt is tough to come by, then all the things mentioned as 'perhaps no big deal', are in fact big deals...or at least medium deals...lol..

This app doesn't need -any- 'graphics' performance. 99.9% of the time the lcd won't even be lit up.

USB HD: a lot of the used ones I've been looking at are 2.5" drives...I thought those -were- laptop drives...??

R-50; yes, it -would- be nice to get rid of the external USB stuff and do it all internal. We could likely even live with the slower-burning internal DVDRW's.

But none of the older machines will take a HD bigger than 160gb, right? Because they're all PATA IF's. So it seems that I need the fast USB port no matter what.

Regarding T40's...yes, the prices have really dropped on those recently...I've seen a number of them on CL for 275...and even a couple under 200 (but those are always gone when I email, of course...lol).

275 is kind of above my price range, but 175 could be done. A T40 series base would be great...but I never thought of those as 'low power' laptops. Most of them seem to be running the fan much of the time.

This old P3 HP6000 -never- runs its fan. The only time it's ever run is when I've booted into the DOS partition to do some DOS things for more than 10 mins.

The 'good base with a broken lcd' idea is interesting....although the bit about 'you only need the screen once' kind of lost me. Since I need it once (for install, setup, etc, I assume), how could I make use of a base with broken lcd?

thanks for giving me your ideas.

Undervolting only works on P-M and newer, not on P3.

X30 is a P3. It would be crazy to put a P4 in a tiny machine like that. The T30 has a P4 though. I think the T30 also only has usb 1.1 as well though.

As for what wireless card instead, I'm not sure. The only other G card that come with Thinkpads are the Intels (2200G and 2915ABG). They are low power, but I've found them to go fritzy often, especially when far away. Don't know how good they work up close.

Yeah, a USB 2.5" HD would be a laptop HD, and thus be low power.

There is a 250GB PATA HD out there, by WD. (WD2500BEVE)

On the T40's fan, I think it's more because of oversensitive fan settings than actual heat (since it's not much more). On thing I've noticed is that by default, the X31 lets the temperature rise to 60c before it turns it's fan on, while the T40 turns on it's fan at 43c. Since the temperature usually is around 45, you can see why the X31 is "quiet" and the T40 has it's fan on all the time. Of course, there may have been a reason for them doing that, since the designs are different. Anyways, there is a program called tpfancontrol that would let you delay the fan start accordingly.

On screenlessness: The assumption is that you'd have a desktop monitor lying around, or have access to one at least once. Then you'd be able to do this from then on,

Another note: There is a bug in Windows, when you plug a USB device in it increases CPU and power usage by 3w or so. There are fixes floating around for this. Not sure if the fix is available for W2K.

There are a heap of options for ways to do this.

What popped into my head first was my old 750P. So old and slow that it doesn't even HAVE a fan. But then it also doesn't have a modem or network capability.

Then my 600X. You could install a DVD burner in the machine, a WiFi card (you should use 802.11g if you're not already) and probably a USB 2.0 card for external disk storage. (The 600X has a modem, but no wired or wireless networks, and it has USB 1.1.)

That USB card could instead be a wired network card for a Netword-Attached Storage (NAS) box; or FireWire; or even SATA. SATA 2.5" drives up to 500GB are available (allegedly even in 9mm thickness).

Other options include moving the DVD burner to external (USB or SATA) and either leaving the bay empty or putting a second battery in it. That way you could turn off the DVD drive when you're not using it, saving a few watts.

Some models of 600X do have SpeedStep and will clock down a bit when not busy. You may need a software tool to make the 600X use a drive larger than 120GB, or just partition the drive for OS and data.

Ah yes, the simplest solution of all. Just get a USB 2.0 card for the HP .

aaa, that certainly helps fit the 'cheap' parameter, doesn't it?

I didn't even know there -were- such things as 'usb cards' until I stumbled across one via google research about usb speeds last night.

Yes, that's certainly an option....although I have this itch to make the home 100% TP...

OK on the desktop monitor for install/start...sheesh...can't believe I missed the obvious like that...lol...yes, I have one.

Wifi card: an external would be fine for this app. It just sits on a table, so pcmcia cards sticking out aren't a problem.


whizkid; the 'use an ancient one' concept is actually not a half-bad idea. Not even having a fan is a good sign. I used to run a 760ED...great machine...altho I remember that mwave modem being a piece of junk...consisently connected at a lower speed than any other modem in the house.

I wish I could find a single page that tabulated actual power-consumption for ALL thinkpads. I've seen the thinkwiki page, but it only lists a few models.

600X; that's the P3 version, correct? And it takes the thicker DVD drives? I'm wondering if one of the faster-writing drives that don't fit T40/T60 might fit in a 600X...do you know?

You said 'no wired network'...a P3 600X doesn't even have a 10baseT port built in?? That's a surprise.

PS: in regards to putting a battery in the CD-bay, I perhaps wasn't as precise as I should've been...

The battery this will run on is NOT the laptop's battery, but rather, the battery-system which runs the cabin. I.e., a bank of industrial lead-acid cells.

Thus, internal batteries are not an issue as far as machine-choice, etc..


hmm...so far then, the options categorize like this:

1) Ancient TP, with a/b/g and USB 2 cards stuck in it (will both of those fit in together?). Modem-quality likely an issue. Non-cpu parts like ram, chipsets, etc. used more power in those days, so likely this setup draws the same 10w as a newer TP

2) T40-series with broken lcd. Internal fast USB and fast Wifi, perhaps internal DVD, external USB 500gb. Nice clean setup, not a lot of junk and cables piled on the table...lol. Price might be ok if a base-only is $50-100 (dvdrw for this series costs $)

3) R50 series, similar to 2 above. In both these cases, use NHC and RMclock to 'turn it down' as far as possible. If that gets it down to 10w or less, that's a win...i.e., that's an acceptable power-usage.


I haven't gotten a clear picture of X-series yet...do they in fact have lower power-consumption?

Or are they pretty much the exact same hardware as each corresponding T-series?

thanks again for the thoughts guys.

Someone who has gone a lot further with solar power, posted very informatively here:
http://forum.lenovo.com/lnv/board/messa ... hread.id=5

thanks for the link RBS.

although....hmm...now that I've scanned that thread...actually, there actually isn't much hands-on info there.

All that guy's done is plug a stock pc into a stock PV/battery combo.

nothing about power reduction techniques.

in fact, that pc that he's lauding for its 'low' power-usage eats 42w...and that's without any monitor...ouch...

maybe good for a desktop I guess...but not for our thinkpads.

Anyway, unless I missed a whole 'nother page to that thread, there's nothing at all there on best choice of machine, or any specifics for minimizing power-consumption, or possible power/perf tradeoffs between various IF buses...etc..etc..

I could also tell that he'd never actually -used- solar power himself; when he said this:

"...but as long as the battery has enough capacity you could run a less efficient desktop off it with no problem."

LOL.....well...you could run it with 'no problem' until the battery goes dead anyway.

As anyone who's ever -lived- on solar-power can tell ya, the size of the battery ain't the issue...it's the size of the PANELS that matters.

In other words, even an infinite-size battery won't keep you running if your INPUT energy doesn't keep up with your day-after-day demand.

That's why I'm so focused on minimizing Wh in this app that I've asked about. Because I have to supply those Wh continuously...day after day after day...

In any case, thanks again for taking the time to post the link RBS That's very much appreciated. One never knows which link is going to be the goldmine of pertinent hard-data...so I appreciate all of 'em.

Well I am on my T40 right now, LCD on dimmest (off-> -2w), downloading something off wifi, the hard drive is on standby., and undervolted of course. This comes out to 11.5w, again with the LCD on. HTH.

Have you seen this page? Some interesting info there.

hi Paul,

Just took a look...that's the thinkwiki page I referred to above. The info is interesting in the 'general' sense...but unfortunately, every single listing is for some kind of linux. Zero windows info.

Nice to see some figures tho...at least it somewhat brackets a 'range'.

The other thing I couldn't find on that page is any mention of measurement-technique. I.e., where exactly are they getting those watt numbers from?

The info there that I found most interesting was seeing T40 series around 10w. That's the same as the old HP I've been playing with...yet my wife's T41 always seems 'warmer' to me than the old HP.

Have to admit tho, I haven't yet put the DC clamp-on on the input of the T41 yet...I'll have to do that soon.


hi again aaa....how are you measuring that 11.5w ??

Software on the machine? DC ammeter on input wire? AC wattmeter on cord of PS ?

thanks

The current draw and voltage from the internal battery can be read via software. That is what the wiki page uses as well.

thanks triple-a !

You know, I'm definitely missing some software.

Over on the 'undervolting' thread, people were talking about Power Manager showing them cpu-voltage, and letting them modify it.

Mine doesn't.

Now you're saying that Power Manager shows power-draw....and I'll bet that's also where people get the battery-cycles and remaining Wh capacity, isn't it?

Mine doesn't do that.

My Power Manager looks like the usual stupid, minimal, windoze control-panel thingy.

So...what exactly am I missing, do you know?

Perhaps I can find it on web and download.

ps; I also recall seeing a T60 that had a nifty green bar-graph, for battery level I think. I don't have anything like that either. No on-screen indicators at all.

I can live without those, but I really would like to have the PM you're talking about.

thanks much!

The Power Manager that most people use (with the green bar) is the IBM Power Manager. You can download it from the IBM/Lenovo site, it's grouped with the drivers.

The IBM Power Manager doesn't really change any voltages though, beyond the automatic voltage changing that Intel does by default on all it's recent processors. To do undervolting you use either NHC or RMClock. I know RMClock also shows the power draw, not sure about NHC. It's easier to undervolt with NHC though.

So is that the same 'Power Manger' that's showing you amps/volts coming in the back ??

Because mine doesn't, and as far as I know, it's the latest off the Lenovo site.

(the man who sold me this T60p did me the favor of downloading all the win2k drivers and burning a DVD...because it would've taken me DAYS to get that gigabyte plus myself over this slow rural dialup).

I don't have reason to doubt his skill at getting files...since he's a professional coder for a living.

But if there's more than one PM, please advise.

hmm...let me look at the directory...

Well, on the DVD there was only one folder called Power Management; containing 2 files...

7tu706ww
7tku703ww

Looking on my windows drive (E: for me), in the DRIVERS folder, there's a W2K folder with a single subfolder in it called PWRMGR

Under DRIVERS again, there's the WIN folder, with a subfolder in it called IBMPM, with x64 and x86 subfolders.

I'm starting to wonder now if I forgot to complete an install. I.e., I 'ran' everything from the DVD...which unpacked it to this DRIVERS folder...and I must've run ONE of these "power manager" setups...but I sure can't remember which one.

OK...in Control Panel add/remove, there is only ThinkPad Power Management Driver. So apparently I need to install a user-app. Do you know which folder that is, the W2K one, or the PM folder within WIN ??

ps; looking at add/remove reminds me....when I installed the Wifi, it came up and ran...but I don't have any 'major' config software installed that I can find. Just a little setup window that I accessed via 'properties' in Network Connections window.

What reminded me of that is that I'm seeing Intel PROset/Wireless Software in add/remove here (along with a seperate listing above it for PRO network Connections Drivers)...but it doesn't show a disk-space number for the PROset/Wireless Software...like perhaps it didn't install for some reason.

ok, I did have both...and had failed to install the PM user-app. Have that installed now.

thanks much

while i was in my local computer repair store i was thinking of you, Dozer.

I found this device you plug an electronic into, any electronic, and then plug this device into a wall socket. what it does is measure, down to a suprisingly small number how much power that particular electronic uses.

the clever name for it was the "kill-a-watt" wasn't too much money either I don't think.


Now, on a separate thought, If you could get your hands on one or two of those one laptop per child (give one get one) laptops i think those used alternate energy to run, such as solar.