Thinkpads Forum

Hello,

I was going to format the HDD in my Thinkpad over the next couple of days and do a fresh install of Windows and my essential programs.

I had the idea of later cloning this fresh install with no other data to my external USB HDD so I would be able in the future if everything goes wrong on my main HDD to just save documents, etc. to my ext HDD, format the main HDD, get the clone of the ext HDD and be all set instead of having to install everything from scratch again.

Now I read, that Acronis TI will format my whole ext HDD when I clone my main HDD to it, that way not making it possible to store the clone on it amongst other data. I pretty much need a whole HDD just dedicated to store the clone that way.

How can my idea be realised anyway then with just my ext USB?

Thanks very much,
Martin

I do something similar as to what I think you are trying to achieve, it may be worth considering;

Original hdd installed and configured with all sw / settings etc.

Clone main hdd with Acronis. I do this with the new hdd in my TP and the original hdd installed in the ultrabay and boot from an Acronis cd.

Once cloned I copy three folders weekly to the other drive into their respective locations, namely My Documents, Favourites and Desktop. My Outlook PST resides in My Docs. (Files do not get saved to any other locations)

Then depending on the number of Lenovo / MS updates over a period of time I either re-clone or just swap the drives and run the updates.

I find it to be a simple solution. I have actually completely re-installed and configured my system yesterday evening and this morning on one of the hard drives, to get rid of the "chaff" which builds up over time, copied the three folders from the other drive to the newly configured one and then cloned again.

Works for me.

zodiac wrote:Now I read, that Acronis TI will format my whole ext HDD when I clone my main HDD to it, that way not making it possible to store the clone on it amongst other data. I pretty much need a whole HDD just dedicated to store the clone that way.

You can use Acronis TI to take a complete backup of your harddisk (image copy) without the need to format the destination hdd. I have done this several times. In case of a disk failure you can restore and the harddisk should be identical to the state of the hdd when you created the backup. The backup will be stored as one file or multiple files (depend of your settings) that you can mount in case you need to just restore some files/folder as well. So you can use a USB disk that you use for other stuff as well as long as you have enough available space.

Great.

So the difference is to just simply backup - not clone.

When I back up my OS installation and my programs installation as a whole - will everything work (e.g. programs not telling me to get them reinstalled, registry working fine), when I apply the backup back onto my main installation?


Second thought: I also want to upgrade to a bigger HDD sometime next month, but I want to keep my the hidden service partition. Can I somehow just do a whole backup of my current drive to my ext. HDD, including the service partition. Then swap the main HDD for the new main HDD. And just apply the backup onto my new HDD?

If that is somehow possible, I wouldnt have to bother about getting an extra enclosure and cloning the drives...

zodiac wrote: When I back up my OS installation and my programs installation as a whole - will everything work (e.g. programs not telling me to get them reinstalled, registry working fine), when I apply the backup back onto my main installation?

Yes that's the whole point to create an identical copy that includes everything.....if you had to reinstall programs it wouldn't be identical. A restore should bring the harddisk back to the point when you created the backup....files, registry, bootsector, emails etc.

zodiac wrote:Second thought: I also want to upgrade to a bigger HDD sometime next month, but I want to keep my the hidden service partition. Can I somehow just do a whole backup of my current drive to my ext. HDD, including the service partition. Then swap the main HDD for the new main HDD. And just apply the backup onto my new HDD?

If that is somehow possible, I wouldnt have to bother about getting an extra enclosure and cloning the drives...

Acronis TI can make a backup of the whole disk including the service part, but i have never tried to restore to a disk of a different size. I'm almost certain it should work fine, but maybe someone that know for sure can confirm it's working.

Concerning drives of larger size I think the newer versions of Acronis TI can shrink and grow the image to fit the new drive size. If not you can always just boot Ubuntu off the CD and use Gparted to resize the partition. Just make sure you use the latest version of Ubuntu so you will have NTFS support.

I have been thankful for making a backup on my external numerous times!
I just use RnR after I am done installing all my programs and tweaking my laptop just the way I like it. That way, if something goes wrong, I don't have to bother reinstalling all my software and playing with settings after I do a backup because it is all the way I want it!

So I can basically install Windows, install all my essential programs, get all the settings right - and then simply store this whole setup with R&R onto the hidden partition? Is this possible?

If yes, there isnt actually a need to clone / back up anything seperately with Acronis TI, right?

I am slowly getting confused by all the options and the way they work...

I do not know about "storing all your new settings on the hidden partition" using RnR. I was only referring to storing it all again on the external HDD.
Sorry for the confusion

zodiac wrote:So I can basically install Windows, install all my essential programs, get all the settings right - and then simply store this whole setup with R&R onto the hidden partition? Is this possible?

Yes this is possible. During boot you can press the Thinkvantage button to see a menu where you can choose to enter the hidden partition for recovery. Using Acronis you have a similar feature where you create a hidden partition for recovery.

zodiac wrote:If yes, there isnt actually a need to clone / back up anything seperately with Acronis TI, right?

If using R&R i cannot see why you should use Acronis TI as well. The hidden partition is a nice feature, but it could be a good idea to store a backup on a separate media as well in case of a disk failure.

zodiac wrote:I am slowly getting confused by all the options and the way they work...

Basically Acronis TI and R&R are two different programs with a lot of the same features. You could use both, but i cannot see the benefit of doing so. Some prefer Acronis TI and some R&R. You could try both and stick with the one you like best and then you don't need the other one. If you want to create a hidden partition for recovery and a backup on some other media like a USB disk both Acronis TI and R&R can do this. You can create a image backup for full recovery or backup of data only or both.

If using R&R there is no need to use Acronis TI and if using Acronis TI there is no need to use R&R. They are basically doing the same thing so pick one of them. I prefer Acronis TI, but that is my opinion only.

Wiz>>If using R&R there is no need to use Acronis TI and if using Acronis TI there is no need to use R&R. They are basically doing the same thing so pick one of them....

Can I just add, not said above, I think, is that Acronis allows you to retrieve individual files very easily, whereas R&R used not to, and probably still does not. Not important with the hidden partition, but really useful (to me) with my monthly backups.

Nick Y wrote:Can I just add, not said above, I think, is that Acronis allows you to retrieve individual files very easily, whereas R&R used not to, and probably still does not. Not important with the hidden partition, but really useful (to me) with my monthly backups.

Yeah there is some differences and a long time since i used R&R since i prefer Acronis TI as well, but i was able to access the backup stored on the hidden partition and browse the files. I assume you can do the same thing with a backup on a USB disk using R&R, but i'm not an R&R expert and not used it for a long time. I just tried to explain that R&R and Acronis TI is kind of doing the same thing so normally i see no reason to use both.

Not to quibble, but R&R backups are stored in a hidden folder on the C: drive, not on the hidden partition. Only R&R itself and the factory image are on the hidden partition. Search the forum for more details.

I've used both R&R and Acronis and, as others have said, they basically work the same. I prefer Acronis because I find it faster and more flexible. I had trouble with R&R on an R60: couldn't restore individual files. Rather than sort it out, I just went to Acronis. With either, you can back up to DVDs or external drive. As others have pointed out, this is essential in case of complete drive failure.

BeeJayEmm wrote:Not to quibble, but R&R backups are stored in a hidden folder on the C: drive, not on the hidden partition. Only R&R itself and the factory image are on the hidden partition. Search the forum for more details.

You are probably right, it's a long time since i used R&R so cannot remember exactly how it works.

Thanks very much for all the comprehensive answers.

How can it be done than, to store an image of Windows and my essential programs on the computer itself (e.g. to recover while traveling)?

Is it maybe somehow possible, to substitute the factory image on the hidden partition with your own customized one?

If not: Having the image stored in the hidden backup folder on C: is not the worst thing, is it? I mean, I could still access it via R&R, even when Windows itself crashed, right?

zodiac wrote:How can it be done than, to store an image of Windows and my essential programs on the computer itself (e.g. to recover while traveling)?

I have a 60MB hd on my T43 of which 6GB is used by the hidden partition; I have 35GB free at present and my back ups, of the main part of the hd, take roughly 10 GB, although this can range from 8GB to 17 GB looking at my previous saves with Acronis. (The hidden partition compressed to 3.6GB with Acronis, but you would not need this or the associated partition.)

My point in looking at the figures above is that you are going to lose a lot of disc space if you keep the image on the main drive -perhaps in a large partition of say 20GB.

My suggestion would be to use an external USB disc drive, one of the very small ones with no external psu required, e.g. the Prestige Portable Hard Drive by Iomega. (http://store.iomega.com/) (This drive is an example; I have not used it!) If your hd crashes you still have the external one from which you can reload. (The T41 was put down on the floor recently while it was shutting down, so I assume the drive protection did not kick in. It wrecked the hd, which had to be replaced.)

Not quite what you want, but it is the route I would consider.

Nick Y wrote:My suggestion would be to use an external USB disc drive, one of the very small ones with no external psu required, e.g. the Prestige Portable Hard Drive by Iomega. (http://store.iomega.com/) (This drive is an example; I have not used it!) If your hd crashes you still have the external one from which you can reload. (The T41 was put down on the floor recently while it was shutting down, so I assume the drive protection did not kick in. It wrecked the hd, which had to be replaced.)

I agree. Some of the USB hdd's is pretty small and no big deal to bring with you. Also a backup on the same harddisk is no good when there is a harddisk failure. Of course it's possible to keep a backup on the same disk as well for recovery, but it can never compensate for a backup on another media.

Hello,

totally right - a recovery backup on the same disk can never substitute for a full backup on external media.

For this reason, all my important data is backed up onto my external USB drive anyway.

All I want for now is a recovery image to restore Windows & programs if there is a software crash on the road. I am not looking for a back up technique saving me in case of hardware crash.

So is it possible to store multiple partitions in an image and then store this image somehow, so that it is accessible straight from the boot screen? How is it done? Shall I take R&R or Acronis for this task?

Thanks for your patience,
Martin

P.S. Sorry, if I keep asking kind of the same questions over and over again. But before submitting this thread, I didnt even really know what exactly I wanted to do. You guys brought me a fair bit further!

zodiac wrote:...So is it possible to store multiple partitions in an image and then store this image somehow, so that it is accessible straight from the boot screen? How is it done? Shall I take R&R or Acronis for this task?

I am biased, in that I use Acronis True Image and therefore cannot comment on R&R, except from the little I have read in this forum.

I don't see why you cannot do what you want:-
Assume Acronis True Image and the Acronis Boot disc, which is made from Acronis TI. (The boot disc could be on a USB memory stick or CD)

1) Make copy of existing hd setup -assuming it has everything on it, but exclude hidden partition, and save onto ext. drive.

2) Make copy of hidden partition and save onto ext. drive. (Keep as a backup.)

3) Delete existing partitions.

4) Make two partitions; one a bit bigger than that required for 1) above (let's call this 'D' drive) and the second for the rest of the hd (and let's call this the 'C' drive.)

5) Run Acronis bootdisc and re-install 1) above into the partition you would normally use.

6) Copy file 1) above onto backup partition.

7) Keep or delete file 1) on ext USB drive.

Now comes the part for which others may like to assist (if they don't disprove the above...) I am not sure if you can re-install onto the existing partition, i.e. the 'C' drive, if you are running Acronis on that drive at the same time. So you may still need the USB memory stick or the CD in order to boot and perform the re-install. I am sure that there are simple ways around this, but I haven't needed them.

A couple of other things: I find that a full back up of my hd takes about 20 minutes and a reinstall takes about an hour. Times will differ depending upon your hd and image size.

The other thing is that Acronis do a trial version of True Image. (I thought they did a free version as well, but cannot find that -and I don't mean 'illegal copies, of which there are many! It is not all that expensive.)

Finally, if you have to reinstall, you will lose everything after the image creation date, but then you can always update the image at times...

I hope that this helps you.

Great! Many thanks, Nick Y.

Something like that is exactly what I have been looking for. A comprehensive step-by-step guide. And its pretty much aimed at what I want to do. Again, thank you very much.

Just would like to know now, if and how the recovery install described above can actually be done without the assitance of a boot disc.

Maybe by creating the Acronis hidden partition on the HD and placing the recovery image there?

But even if not - carrying a small USB stick around while traveling is not much of a problem. CD would not be possible as I just have a slim drive in my ultrabase which I plan NOT to take with me on travels.

zodiac wrote:...Just would like to know now, if and how the recovery install described above can actually be done without the assitance of a boot disc...

Thinking about it a bit more.... It must work with Acronis on the 'C' disc and the image on the 'D'.

If I want to go back to earlier version I start Acronis on my 'C' drive, select the file, which is on my ext disc, and then it will re-boot and install it. As part of the initial re-installing process, you have to say where the image is and where you want it put. So as long as it is on another drive (or partition) that is fine.

Problem is just, that I want to prepare for the case, that I cant access Windows anymore...

The Acronis & image must me accessible and installable straight from the boot enviroment.

zodiac wrote:Problem is just, that I want to prepare for the case, that I cant access Windows anymore...

The Acronis & image must me accessible and installable straight from the boot enviroment.

Then I think you will need a USB Bootdisc as mentioned previously.

An alternative way would be to embed the image and Acronis into a very small copy of XP, but then that is getting a bit complicated.

Acronis has a feature that creates a "Secure Zone". Used along with the "Startup Recovery Manager", it works a lot like pressing the Blue Button on a ThinkPad. It creates a partition on which you store backup(s) that is hidden from most programs. If you have a software problem that messes up Windows or some app(s), this feature would allow you to reload that backup without using external drives or optical disks. Is this what you had in mind for peace of mind while traveling? It still will not protect you in the event of a hardware problem that takes out the entire hard drive. R&R can also be used this way but I prefer Acronis.

@BeeJayEmm

This is exactly, what I wanted to do.

So in the end, I can use both - R&R and Acronis - for my purposes.

So what are my benefits from using R&R or instead Acronis?

Does R&R have any special functions specific for my Thinkpad (besides being able to recover it to Lenovo factory condition) in comparison to Acronis TI, that would possibly make it a keeper?

R&R is free.
Seriously, as you said, it can also restore to factory contents. And it can be started with its own key on the keyboard! Other than that, in my opinion it is better to use Acronis. I have found it to be faster, more flexible and has at least as much power and features. And no, I do not work for Acronis.

zodiac wrote:So what are my benefits from using R&R or instead Acronis?

Does R&R have any special functions specific for my Thinkpad (besides being able to recover it to Lenovo factory condition) in comparison to Acronis TI, that would possibly make it a keeper?

If you don't care about the fact that Acronis TI is not free (it's not expensive either) i would choose Acronis TI without any doubt. There is some time since i tried R&R so cannot say a lot about the current version, but if you read the posts in this thread it seems like most of us prefer Acronis TI. I also have the impression reading other posts in this forum that a lot of people prefer Acronis TI, but i cannot speak for everyone so this is just my impression. Some people also prefer R&R so you might not agree....just like some prefer Thinkpad and others something else. Both can do what you want.

Acronis TI can make backup of files, folder, full image backup, incremental backup, compression, password protect backups and the features you would expect from a good backup program. As already said in this thread you can create a secure zone and create a full backup that is stored in the secure zone that can be used for recovery. In that case you don't need anything else to recover....just press F11 during boot to enter the recovery feature of Acronis TI.

Wiz wrote:...you can create a secure zone and create a full backup that is stored in the secure zone that can be used for recovery. In that case you don't need anything else to recover....just press F11 during boot to enter the recovery feature of Acronis TI.

Good point: I hadn't thought about the secure zone, as I use an ext. hd. so haven't really experimented with it.

The other aspect for Acronis is that you can extract individual files and folders, which I gather R&R will not let you do, or certainly wouldn't last time I tried it a few years ago. (BTW to retrieve a file you don't need to start Acronis; just double click the image and it opens up in 'explorer' and then just drag and drop to your desktop or wherever you want it copied to-assuming you have Acronis installed, of course.)

The other aspect for Acronis is that you can extract individual files and folders, which I gather R&R will not let you do, or certainly wouldn't last time I tried it a few years ago

You've been able to recover individual files from an RnR backup for some time. I've successfully done this with both release 3 and release 4.

My biggest problem with RnR is the backup time. In comparison to Acronis it's painfully slow, although restore times are a little quicker. However, as you usually (!!!) do more backups than restores, the time penalty on backup is unacceptable.

ashleys wrote:...You've been able to recover individual files from an RnR backup for some time. I've successfully done this with both release 3 and release 4.

Thanks for the update.