External USB Enclosure with HDD PW still Enabled - Data Lost

[eecon]

If I remove my ThinkPad HDD without clearing the HDD password I understand that it is not accessible when placed in an external 2.5" USB enclosure.

So far, so good.

However, I'm curious if the HDD's data can be accidentally destroyed via WinXP's Computer Management/Disk Management console?

In other words, does WinXP think it's looking at a non-initialized, non-formated HDD and then ask you if you want to initialize it (like when you plug in a brand new external non-formated USB HDD and then bring up the Disk Management Console window)?

I bought one of those external Seagate-Maxtor BlackArmor USB HDDs with AES hardware-based encrytion and sure as sh** WinXP allows me to destroy it's data every time it is attached (but only before it's PW has been entered via the Maxtor Manager SW that comes with the BlackArmor).

I don't have an external 2.5 USB HDD enclosure right now to test using one of my spare ThinkPad HDDs (I used to have one but it has failed). Just curious what others see in Window's Disk Management Console when they try plugging in a password protected ThinkPad HDD via an external 2.5" USB enclosure?

Thanks

[RealBlackStuff]

Windows will ask for the password, nothing and nobody can access that hard drive WITHOUT the password.

[eecon]

Windows will ask for the password, nothing and nobody can access that hard drive WITHOUT the password.

Thanks .... Just to make sure I understand, we are talking about the HDD being in an external USB enclosure so I was under the impression that Windows would not even get to the point of asking for a password .... that it would think it was an unformated HDD. I have a pair of Hitachi 320GB 7200 PRM TravelStar 7K320's #0A57527 units (with hardware-based encryption - BDE) and a new HDD Ultrabay Adapter due in next Tuesday. I'm going to pickup a new external 2.5" USB enclosure this weekend and then test out both types of HDDs (with BDE and without) and report back.

BTW, that pair of 320GB BDE Hitachi's are eventually going into my traveling T61 ..... With hardware-based encryption and strong HDD passwords, I can finally kiss the minor hassels of software based encryption goodbye

[eecon]

Update:

I got home this afternoon with a new external 2.5" USB enclosure and tried using some of my spare HDD PW protected ThinkPad hardrives (non-BDE/FDE Seagate Momentus Lenovo Branded units) on both WinXP SP2 and Vista Business SP2 (32-bit).

Vista:

I Plug in a PW protected HDD in a 2.5" USB external enclosure and Vista shows it as a non-initialized HDD and offers to initialize it under Disk Management. I did not say yes because I did not want to risk destroying the data on the external PW protected HDD until I make a clone of it when my new Hitachi 320GB 7K320 BDE units arrive next week.

WinXP:

Although I hear an audible bell from the speakers when inserting the USB connector, no HDD at all shows up under Disk Management and there is no offer to initialize the drive. However, under Device Mangler the drive does show up as an installed piece of hardware. Also, under Windows Explorer file manager there is no evidence of any new hard drive. The "Safely Remove Hardware" icon in the Toolbar Tray does show it as non-lettered USB mass storage device. I click on it to safely remove it ..... and the normal bubble window pops up saying it is safe to remove.

That's all for now folks ....... It will be interesting next week to see if Vista lets me initialize and reformat the PW protected HDDs. If it does, then at least you don't have to scrap ThinkPad HDDs whose HDD password have been forgotten .... just initialize under Vista from an external enclosure and format for reuse in other service.

We shall see.

[basketb]

...
WinXP:

Although I hear an audible bell from the speakers when inserting the USB connector, no HDD at all shows up under Disk Management and there is no offer to initialize the drive. However, under Device Mangler the drive does show up as an installed piece of hardware. Also, under Windows Explorer file manager there is no evidence of any new hard drive. The "Safely Remove Hardware" icon in the Toolbar Tray does show it as non-lettered USB mass storage device. I click on it to safely remove it ..... and the normal bubble window pops up saying it is safe to remove. ...

This is the same behavior you get when you put a password-protected HD in the ultrabay adapter and insert the adapter in a running system. However, with this setup you get prompted for the password when you put your computer into sleep or hibernation and later resume from either. Have you tried this with the external usb enclosure? Or have the USB enclosure already connected when you start the computer? (though this probably will still not work as I've once read that there is no command for transmitting the PW to the HD via USB.)

...
That's all for now folks ....... It will be interesting next week to see if Vista lets me initialize and reformat the PW protected HDDs. If it does, then at least you don't have to scrap ThinkPad HDDs whose HDD password has been forgotten .... just initialize under Vista from an external enclosure and format for reuse....

Please do report back. My guess (though I have no experience with Vista at all) would be that initialization will fail and no data will be affected.

[eecon]

This is the same behavior you get when you put a password-protected HD in the ultrabay adapter and insert the adapter in a running system. However, with this setup you get prompted for the password when you put your computer into sleep or hibernation and later resume from either. Have you tried this with the external usb enclosure? Or have the USB enclosure already connected when you start the computer? (though this probably will still not work as I've once read that there is no command for transmitting the PW to the HD via USB.)

All good points ...... I did not try putting the systems to sleep or hibernation, nor did I have the external already plugged-in and running before powering up any of the laptops.

I will definately try all these things next week before I install my new incoming BDE 7K320 Hitachi units .... and report back on everything.

However, I'll probably start a separate thread regarding my impressions of the new BDE Hitachis.

[phrider]

I have a Lenovo Z61p that had a non-BDE Hitachi 320 GB drive (7k320). I recently got a BDE version of the same 7k320 drive.

I set it up by:
1. Putting the uninitialized BDE drive in the primary drive location, and setting User and Admin passwords in Bios.
2. After powering down the computer, I put the old non-BDE drive (with a full XP install and data) into the Ultrabay, and the Acronis startup CD in a USB connected CD/DVD drive
3. I rebooted to the USB-connected CD drive with Acronis. The BIOS asks for the primary disk password during bootup, but you get the chance to redirect the boot up to the CD drive.
4. Using Acronis, I cloned the old drive located in the Ultrabay onto the BDE drive located in the primary internal dirve location.

I now regularly clone from the new BDE drive to the old non-BDE drive in the Ultrabay, again using Acronis off a USB CD drive.

If you get the Hitachi BDE drive working on some USB enclosure or off the Ultrabay, let us know the drive enclosure brand/model and other specifics.

[RealBlackStuff]

You are correct, a USB case will not see a PW-protected HD.
I put my PW-locked HD via a 3.5"-2.5" adapter onto an IDE channel of my PC, and was asked by XP-Pro for the password.

[eecon]

phrider .... thanks for sharing your recent cloning experience regarding the 7K320's. Very timely for me .... I'll have two BDE 7K320's, one ultrabay adapter, and an external 2.5" USB enclosure to work with so I'll goof around next week trying all the different cloning scenarios to see what works and what doesn't, etc.

RealblackStuff ..... was that 3.5"-2.5" adapter something that you connected to a regular desktop unit?

To All ...... It will be interesting to see if Vista let's me destroy my data on a PW-Locked HD via the initialization/formatting process without entering a PW, however. I won't mind that too much as the drive contents will be lost for the average thief in that case. It will be even more interesting how the PW-Locked BDE drives respond in Vista (an WinXP) to connections via USB.

I'll post back my discoveries next week. Thanks

[RealBlackStuff]

Yes, the IDE cable was from my desktop PC.

And don't waste any time on trying to erase/access your PW-protected HD.
It is NOT possible, unless you have a forensic lab at your disposal!

(I have one of those doorstoppers, and believe you me, I have tried EVERYthing legal and illegal to unlock it. NO way).

[phrider]

And don't waste any time on trying to erase/access your PW-protected HD.
It is NOT possible, unless you have a forensic lab at your disposal!

(I have one of those doorstoppers, and believe you me, I have tried EVERYthing legal and illegal to unlock it. NO way).

As I thought that I understood the Hitachi BDE documentation, if you set a new hard drive password in Bios, you've essentially erased the whole drive anyway. So, yes, you can use it. No, you'll never get that data back.

With a BDE drive, you better have a careful backup strategy. Mine is daily online backups of the key files combined with a cloning of the drive about once per month.

PS: The Hitachi documentation seems to imply that it will work is certain kinds of USB drive enclosures -- but I doubt that I understood what they were trying to say.

[eecon]

As I thought that I understood the Hitachi BDE documentation, if you set a new hard drive password in Bios, you've essentially erased the whole drive anyway. So, yes, you can use it. No, you'll never get that data back.

With a BDE drive, you better have a careful backup strategy. Mine is daily online backups of the key files combined with a cloning of the drive about once per month.

PS: The Hitachi documentation seems to imply that it will work is certain kinds of USB drive enclosures -- but I doubt that I understood what they were trying to say.

Yes, but to set that new PW in BIOS you first need to know the current PW. I guess I better read all the Hitachi docs and do my testing with junk data that I don't mind losing before actually deploying them into regular service. I'm not too worried about forgeting my very strong HD PW ..... However, it sounds like what I really need to remember after deploying the BDE units is not to change passwords haphazardly (defined by Webster's Dictionary as "marked by lack of plan, order, or direction").

Thanks

[eecon]

With a BDE drive, you better have a careful backup strategy. Mine is daily online backups of the key files combined with a cloning of the drive about once per month.

phrider ..... I received my 320GB Hitachi BDE drives today and had a question about setting the HDD PW before executing the cloning operation using my T61p. I was wondering if you could more fully clarify your cloning experience/procedure regarding BDE drives?

For instance, if I clone using Acronis TI 11.0 from my old drive to the new BDE drive before I PW protect the new BDE drive using a cloning technique as you describe earlier in this thread from my Ultrabay adapter to my main HDD bay (booting from an external USB CD using the Acronis Bootable Disk), will I lose all my cloning effort as soon as I set the BDE HDD's first PW via BIOS?

In other words, do I need to set the new clean unused BDE HDD's PW before cloning to it?

I understand about losing all its data later on if you ever decide to change a BDE/FDE HDD PW (down the road) .... but I'm curious/confused about setting a HDD PW before its first cloning opertion .... I alway used to first temporarily disable all HDD PWs before cloning (on non-BDE/FDE units) but maybe I now have to change my ways?

BTW ..... I followed up on the Vista thing where the OS would see a PW protected HDD and offer to initialize it (unlike Windows XP). When I tried to initialize it under Vista I always got an I/O error in all possible situations.

RealBlackStuff is correct (as ususal) that a forgotten HDD PW earns you a new door-stop!

[phrider]

In other words, do I need to set the new clean unused BDE HDD's PW before cloning to it?

Yes, you must have set the PW before cloning.

The blank BDE drive goes in the primary drive position, you start the computer and immediately go into BIOS and set a user PW for the hard drive (and if you have the option, a separate administrators PW for the hard drive, which supposedly allows you to recover if you forget the user PW, but I haven't tested this).

Reboot. After the Bios startup screen you should get a very basic request for a HD PW. Test it (I got an "OK" after entering the PW before the errors for no operating system).

Shut down, put the old HD in the Ultradrive Bay, and the Acronis on a CD drive attached via USB. During bootup, hit F12 and select a bootup from the CD drive (the Acronis startup CD). You'll also have to enter the BDE HD PW, either before or after the bootup selection, I can't recall.

Start Acronis and clone from the old drive in the UltraBay to the new BDE one in the primary drive location.

Don't get it backwards, or you'll be very unhappy (know the Label and other info on your old HD before doing this). Shut down Acronis when done, and power down, remove the old drive in the UltraBay, and reboot. Enter HD PW, and the system should come up.

At least that was my experience.

[eecon]

Don't get it backwards, or you'll be very unhappy (know the Label and other info on your old HD before doing this). Shut down Acronis when done, and power down, remove the old drive in the UltraBay, and reboot. Enter HD PW, and the system should come up.

At least that was my experience.

Many thanks ..... My original Hitachi is only a 200GB unit so unless I'm really, really impaired (i.e. more than 3 or 4 strong evening beverages), I hope to ID them properly during the cloning operation (which I've done many times before with non-BDE HDDs).

BTW .... I wonder if I should perform a full Format on both new HDDs before the cloning to mark or ID any bad sectors?

[phrider]

BTW .... I wonder if I should perform a full Format on both new HDDs before the cloning to mark or ID any bad sectors?

I was just hoping that Acronis would do a good job at that.... and did do drive test and repair afterwards.

Since the BDE drive has to be in the primary position with the PW working, I believe you'd have to do the format from another boot source, and I didn't want to boot from the old HD in the UltraBay for fear that Windows XP would try to "fix" the drive position and lettering "problem". But this is just speculation on my part.

[eecon]

I was just hoping that Acronis would do a good job at that.... and did do drive test and repair afterwards.

Since the BDE drive has to be in the primary position with the PW working, I believe you'd have to do the format from another boot source, and I didn't want to boot from the old HD in the UltraBay for fear that Windows XP would try to "fix" the drive position and lettering "problem". But this is just speculation on my part.

Does this mean I can never use my second BDE HDD (with a PW) as a non-system logical drive for data storage in the Ultrabay as I had planned? I sure hope not.

I would think that I could simply put each BDE unit one at a time in the Ultrabay adapter, initalize and do a full format as a logical drive to accomplish a full bit-by-bit check. Then pick one of them for the actual Acronis cloning operation of the system drive as per your procedure (by placing it in the primary HDD position, moving my original system drive to the Ultrabay, and then booting from the Acronis CD with an external CD device).

[phrider]

Since the BDE drDoes this mean I can never use my second BDE HDD (with a PW) as a non-system logical drive for data storage in the Ultrabay as I had planned? I sure hope not.

I don't know. Once you've established a PW for the primary HD, see if Bios will allow you to create a HD-2 PW for the UltraBay.

You have the 2 BDE drives to test this out..... Keep us posted.

I would think that I could simply put each BDE unit one at a time in the Ultrabay adapter, initalize and do a full format as a logical drive to accomplish a full bit-by-bit check.

Hitachi has a low level HD check utility on their support site. Supposedly this utility works with the BDE drives. But I haven't read all the directions, and don't know if any of the tests are destructive or disruptive to the BDE encryption.

[eecon]

Thanks .... I've already successfully inserted a second PW protected non-BDE drive in the Ultrabay (to try out my newly arrived Ultrabay adapter) and the system upon power up requests a PW #1 and PW #2 (there is a numeral 1 and a then numeral 2 next to the small PW request padlock icons). Whether BDE/FDE drives behave the same is something I'll soon find out, but I suspect that they will be just fine.

However, I'll definately goof around with both BDE drives using different scenarios and non-important data before I perform a final clone of my current non-BDE system drive.

Stay tuned ....

[eecon]

Here is the link to a performance and operational review of my two new BDE Hardware-Based Encryption Hard drives as promised:

http://www.thinkpads.com/forum/viewtopi ... 18&t=74358

(I started a new thread for this Review since we have essentially strayed to a different topic)