The Best Used ThinkPad for the Money?

[th3fro6]

Hello to everyone, I need your advice.

I need to set up a computer lab for a school in a developing country. For the last few months I have researched on the hardware/software issues and finally came up with a semi-finalist: used IBM ThinkPad with either Windows XP Pro or Ubuntu. So here I am trying to pick your brains.

If I may ramble a bit: the main purpose is to set up a lab consisting of a few computers and internet connection with minimum cost, quick installation, reliable and durable equipment so students can learn English, computer literacy, science, math etc.

My reasoning:
1. Hardware requirements are at low end: 1.6GHz CPU or less, 512MB RAM, 40 GB HDD, 15” or less LCD.
2. Used ThinkPad unit in this configuration may be available for about $200. Great for the budget, so I can have a few extra units just for parts/repairs.
3. ThinkPad is small, light, reliable and durable, easy to set up with a small wireless environment. Why laptop? Easy to transport and install. And developing country has a habit of cutting electricity frequently and randomly, so the battery would help tremendously to keep the class in session, it is not intended to be the primary power source for mobility.

My questions to solicit for your opinion/advice:
1. Which ThinkPad series is best fitted for the lab? Budgeted for $200 each. I’ve read here that T and R-series may have the notorious GPU problem. Please take into account that durability and reliability are very important.
2. How do I set up these units to minimize mishaps and accidents? Most of what I learned regarding computer lab in developing country are setups with sturdier desktops (main box is mounted fixed high and dry)
3. Are there drawbacks that I may not have thought of regarding this “laptop” setup?
4. Once a ThinkPad series is chosen, which parts or extras should I obtain to keep the lab running for at least 3 years (ThinkPad is built like a tank, others said and I tend to agree)?
5. If there are other places in this forum or elsewhere that may have some info please point so I can learn to help myself. This is a gigantic forum, it could take me months but I'll forge ahead.

Any comment is greatly appreciated.

[underclocker]

In that range, if you have to stick to $200, your best bet wouldn't be a ThinkPad, it'd be a Dell D600 (with a 1.6GHz - 2.0GHz Pentium M CPU). The D600 is from the Dell business line, they are tough and reliable - with many, many available. An IBM alternative would be the faster, Intel GPU R51's - not that easy to find, though. If you could budget in the $250 range, a Dell D610 or IBM R52 with Intel GPU (some were Intel, some ATI), would be better (faster CPU's, bus and less costly memory - for both the D610 or R52). If you could go up a little more (or get lucky) you could find R60's with either Celeron or Core Solo CPU's in that range. Some R61e's sell for under $250 on eBay occasionally - these are unbelievably fast, modern machines with bright 15.4" widescreen LCD's. Here is one on eBay for $270 delivered - can't beat it (unless you find it for less) --> http://cgi.ebay.com/Lenovo-R61e-Celeron ... 0369541229

Summary:
~$200 - Dell D600 or IBM R51 (Intel GPU)
< $250 - Dell D610 or IBM R52 (Intel GPU)
< $275 - IBM R60/R60e
< $300 - IBM R61/R61i/R61e

Good luck.

P.S. Welcome to the forum!

[rkawakami]

Welcome to thinkpads.com!

Reasoning:

1) Hardware requirements: a low-end T4x on down to a high-end T23. Anything older or slower may not be effective for your uses
2) Budget: $200 might be a little bit on the low side; I'd figure more like $250 per machine (see below)
3) Battery: good idea but good batteries can be one of the most expensive items in a laptop's overall cost

Questions:

1) System/durability/budget: if you're locked into a $200 figure and given the T4x's potential for GPU problems, then I'd go with a T23 (but with some possible system restrictions)
2) Safeguarding: install each laptop into a locked docking station. That will reduce the chances to lift and carry the machine around. It can also keep the laptops from "walking away".
3) Drawbacks: mobile computers can be subjected to a large amount of shocks. From system flexing that will kill a motherboard to bounces that can wipe out a hard drive. Keeping the laptop somewhat stationary in a dock can help with that.
4) Extra parts: keyboards, batteries and hard drives will probably be the most common things that will break. This will also push up your overall per system cost and should be figured into the budget.
5) Other sources for info: there's many things that have been posted here concerning durability and costs for older Thinkpads but here's a few things....

- T23 systems can have problems with loose parts coming off the motherboard. Usually these are inductors but they can be re-soldered back on (after taking the motherboard out of the system). Once firmly re-attached and as long as the user doesn't pick up the system with one hand by the front corner, they are fairly reliable. The same "don't pick up the system with one hand by the corner" applies to ANY laptop as far as I'm concerned.
- T23 systems only support USB 1.1 speeds. If you envision having fast peripherals connected via USB, then a T23 may not be the best choice.
- T23 memory is SDRAM, which is usually more expensive (per MB) than DDR or DDR2 memory. T23s are also limited to 1GB of system memory.
- Some T30 systems have suffered with memory slot problems (as well as some T23s I've seen, but to a lesser degree, it appears). Again, a steady hand on the soldering iron (and keen eye) can usually solve that problem.
- T43 systems which have the Intel graphics chip seem to be less prone (I don't want to say 'immune') to the dreaded loose GPU issue. However, those systems may be above your $200 limit. On the plus side, they have USB 2.0 support, use cheaper DDR2 memory than the T23 and max out at 2GB. On the minus side, it can throw a harmless boot error if the installed hard drive is not on the 'approved' list.
- Don't have any personal experience with the older R series but I believe that an R31 is generally thought to be in the same ballpark as the T23 and the R50/R51/R52 series is about equivalent to the T41/T42/T43 systems.

[underclocker]

Here is one on eBay for $270 delivered - can't beat it (unless you find it for less) --> http://cgi.ebay.com/Lenovo-R61e-Celeron ... 0369541229

OK, that machine was out there for 9 days, but it sold 13 minutes after my post, which forum member grabbed it?! Actually, it doesn't show a buyer...weird...but it's no longer available...coincidence?

[ZaZ]

It was not me. They did have some R61/R61es is the Lenovo Outlet for $350ish last week. It's a bit more than the one on eBay, but you get a warranty from the Outlet.

[th3fro6]

OK, that machine was out there for 9 days, but it sold 13 minutes after my post, which forum member grabbed it?! Actually, it doesn't show a buyer...weird...but it's no longer available...coincidence?

Hmm, sniper hiding in the hills here too?

Great thanks to underclocker and rkawakami, your knowledge and insights are invaluable. I've learned much more from just your posts than the last few weeks browsing the forum.

Heeding your advise, I should budget it to be in the range of $250 to $300 (fewer machines, more time sharing, but better hardware and reliability because my main goal is to have minimum down time)

Ballpark:R52 or T43. I am open for all ideas as I learn from the experts here.
For the "lock down", I was thinking of a desk that would open up like a sewing machine table (I'd learn how to add some pix), bad idea?

Much appreciated.

[spuddog]

From your requirements, I would look at T2X series or even A3X.

Scott

[vanaya]

I agree with Ray. If you go with the T23, re-tin the culprit inductors prior on all the MB and you will prevent them from becoming problems later. Essentially you can do that with the T30 also, but re-soldering all the memory slot pins prior seems like a big task. The T20/21/22 series is too unreliable because of the BOD. And ofcourse the T4x, you would need to increase your budget. Hope this helps!

[RealBlackStuff]

I agree with RayThe T2x series is too unreliable because of the BOD.

You should be careful here!
The BOD problem ONLY happens in T20/T21/T22.
There are too old really, with only a maximum of 512MB RAM, and smaller CPUs.
The T23 would be a perfect candidate, well in your budget.
Although models with factory built-in WiFi are increasingly harder to get.
Models with a PCMCIA wifi card are much easier to find.

Just how many laptops are you looking for?
I could supply you with 6-8 of those T23s from stock within your $200.- each budget!
PM me if interested.

[vanaya]

Sorry about that typo!! I meant other than T23. I have edited my post above. Thanks for the catch RBS.

[th3fro6]

Many thanks to spuddog,vanaya and RBS for your input.

Just how many laptops are you looking for?
I could supply you with 6-8 of those T23s from stock within your $200.- each budget!
PM me if interested.

We originally had budgeted for about 35 units plus spares ($8K), but may have to revise for fewer. Thanks RBS for the offer, I'll hit you up when we go to acquire.

Still learning every single time I check into the forum. Good stuff!

[Utwig]

What about X41: You can get one for 200-250, you can replace HDD with CF cards and install XP or Ubuntu (8GB is enough), it's also lighter, smaller, no optical drive to fail, with CF card also no HDD to fail?

Also best would be to just buy a fleet of Thinkpads from some Business or from shop who deals with reselling leased models. Thus you'll get a batch of similar machines and also be able to reduce price if you buy 10s of them.

[th3fro6]

What about X41: You can get one for 200-250, you can replace HDD with CF cards and install XP or Ubuntu (8GB is enough), it's also lighter, smaller, no optical drive to fail, with CF card also no HDD to fail?

Also best would be to just buy a fleet of Thinkpads from some Business or from shop who deals with reselling leased models. Thus you'll get a batch of similar machines and also be able to reduce price if you buy 10s of them.

Thanks to utwig for the great idea regarding Ubuntu and reseller.

I am afraid that most, if not all, of the educational software that I have looked at (also testing services') are based on MS platform. Which means that I have to look around some more if Ubuntu is in play.

We definitely will have to acquire similar machines (same age and type) to minimize headaches in supporting them.

Some questions arise when I browse thru the forum:
Regarding the T4x series, are the 2374s that have ATI Radeon 7500 seem to be problematic with the GPUs?

What are you thoughts? Anyone compiled some kind of report on this?

[craigmontHunter]

Any T4x system with an ATI 7500 gpu is able to get the gpu problem, but apparently the t40s were built before the ROHS and therefore have fewer problems (not sure, just remember seeing that on the forum earlier today). I think that your best bet, especailly if you are planning on keeping your laptops secured and not move them around a lot is a dell Latitude D600 or D610, both of which can be bought for cheap on e-bay in lots. For security, what my High school in Ottawa does is there are carts on wheels that lock and 10? laptops fit in, then they are wheeled around if a class does not need the full lab. This way you could keep the computers secure and have the computers come to the students (I don't know how tight you are for classroom space or number of classrooms). the laptops in the carts are D600s so I know that they work. then you jsut need to lock up 2 or 3 carts whenever they are not beign used and they are completely safe.

[th3fro6]

A dell Latitude D600 or D610, both of which can be bought for cheap on e-bay in lots. For security, lock up 2 or 3 carts whenever they are not beign used and they are completely safe.

Excellent ideas regarding both the Dell D600/D610 and the storage carts. Thank you, craigmontHunter. Would you any chance have a pix of the cart mentioned? If yes, could I please see it? My email is at th3fro6@yahoo.com

[pianowizard]

My coworker has a D610 and it feels very fragile and cheap. However, she has been abusing it pretty bad for over 3 years (I have observed how she handles it many times) and it's still working perfectly fine. So, I suspect it's actually quite reliable, probably better than the T40/41/42 Thinkpads.

[th3fro6]

My coworker has a D610 and it feels very fragile and cheap. However, she has been abusing it pretty bad for over 3 years (I have observed how she handles it many times) and it's still working perfectly fine. So, I suspect it's actually quite reliable, probably better than the T40/41/42 Thinkpads.

Thank you, pianowizard. Following craigmonthunter's comment and yours, I've read a few articles/posts/comments regarding the Dell Lat D600 series. Found out that they may have problems with GPU, overheating and battery recall as well. However, these units seem to be available in larger quantity than the ThinkPads for the same price range.

[dr_st]

The nVidia-equipped D630s definitely have GPU issues, due to the faulty 8-series GPUs being used on them (same as T61). But perhaps they fail more than T61s due to worse cooling which stresses the GPU more. (my theory at least, because all DELL laptops I've ever had the pleasure to touch were kinda hot).

Dunno about older D6x0 models.

[seaweedsl]

I'm surprised there is not consensus for the R51 for your application. It's hands down to me. This machine is a great value in a solid modern machine. They are commonly available and the price is around $200. I don't see why a T series would even need to be considered for desktop replacement. R51 has everything it does= USB 2.0, wireless, same keyboard and screen, motherboard swap as T40,41,42. but just a bit thicker and heavier. Oh, and more reliable.

Lots of components available on Ebay as well. These R51 were very common and were all over the place two years ago when they came off corporate lease. By now they are practically giving them away, but they are still very robust yet have great CPUs and USB 2.0, which is critical for most users. Some are still available with IBM warranty as off-lease machines.

For reliability you might stick with Intel GPU but I suggest you just take em as they come and then pick up a few extra motherboards for around $50 each. Also some spare ultrabay drives - the T4x series or the R5x both series fit. Also a few keyboards. That ought to keep you running a long time. Oh and a set of backup disks so you can setup a drive and clone from there.

If your budget can afford it, go for the 15" LCD to get a full desktop replacement experience. Looks like 15" is now around $200 too, but they are often a bit more with shipping.

Searching for R51 thinkpads on Ebay for under $250 gets around 100 hits any given day, 30-40 are probably good machines.

For example, These sellers have six of these:
IBM ThinkPad R51 15" Laptop PM-1.7 1GB 40GB CDRW/DVD XP
WIRELESS-B/G Gigabit NIC 2xUSB 56K AC Tested Battery
http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-ThinkPad-R51-15 ... |294%3A200

Or here:
IBM ThinkPad R51 PM 1.6GHz 512MB 40GB DVD/CDRW XP SEALED BOX WITH IBM WARRANTY http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-ThinkPad-R51-PM ... |294%3A200

Motherboards here are new, untested, but I've had good luck:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-IBM-THINKPAD-39T5 ... |294%3A200

Or here for used tested: http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-R51-MOTHERBOARD ... |294%3A200

I really think this machine is perfect for your purpose and will be easy to support for years.

Steve

[robert213]

I am very happy with my T30 running Windows XP Pro.

The T30 has many of the benefits of T23 plus it is easily upgraded to 2GB RAM. The Ultrabay has drives for DVD/RW, extra HD, and 1.44 floppy.

Both of my T30's have been running without ever experiencing the memory-slot problem. Besides, Hammerhead Tech in CA can resolder for under $100 shipped, if that ever becomes a problem.

The only disadvantages of T30 that I am aware of...
- limited choices of CPU
- no built-in wireless network (must install yourself, or purchase PC Card)
- no 2.0 USB (again need to purchase PC Card)

[rkawakami]

<snip> The only disadvantages of T30 that I am aware of...
- no built-in wireless network (must install yourself, or purchase PC Card)

Some T30 systems were configured with wireless from the factory. As far as I know, all T30s are capable of being upgraded with wireless.

[underclocker]

At $220 each delivered, I suggest buying all 10 nicely equipped R51's (Intel GPU) that are currently available from this seller. See quote below from ad regarding condition (excellent).

http://cgi.ebay.com/R51-IBM-1-7GHZ-1GiG ... 0142069540

Product: ThinkPad R51 2888-WQ4
Original description: Pentium M 735(1.7GHz), 512MB RAM --> upgraded to 1GB, 40GB 4200rpm HDD, 14.1in 1024x768 LCD, Intel Extreme, 24x10x24x/8x CD-RW/DVD, Intel 802.11bg wireless(MPCI), 1Gb Ethernet(LOM), Secure Chip, IEEE 1394, 6c Li-Ion batt, WinXP Pro, AC adapter

EXCELLENT CONDITION
THE SCREEN HAS LITTLE TO NO BLEMISHES, NO DENTS IN THE CASE, AND ONLY MINOR WEAR AS YOU WOULD EXPECT ON A NOTEBOOK COMING OFF LEASE.
THERE ARE NO OBNOXIOUS COSMETIC ISSUES AND NO MECHANICAL ISSUES
I WOULD GRADE THIS A 97/100,
A SOLID GRADE A MACHINE

[th3fro6]

Thanks to dr_st, seaweedsl, robert213, underclocker and rkawakami for all your inputs.
Taking all informative advices into consideration, I have purchased a couple of units for fact-finding-purposes (nothing compares to actually turning the machine on and have a feel for it, yes?).

Two T40s (one with ATI 7500, one with ATI 9000, for $240 each), one R50 (with ATI 7500 for $200). We'll purchase a Dell 600 series and a R51 as well.

So far, these are what we found:
1. Love the T40 for its size and speed. Definitely a GPU problem with ATI 7500. We read alot about reflux fix and so on, cost vs benefit is negative. We may have found another temporary fix for this GPU, will update with more info later. This T40 is so finicky with the GPU: pick it up (both hands as an expert in this forum suggested), move it, close the lid while on may trigger a blank screen, distorted graphics or even a shut down.

2.The T40 with ATI 9000 is very solid, big complaint comparing to the ATI 7500 is the screen. While having more memory and higher resolution, the ATI 9000 is blurry and washout when set side by side. White is yellowish, character is not as sharp. Both unit are set at 1024x768, Cleartype. We may not have tweaked the ATI to its best settings. We appreciate any tip/suggestion.

3. The R50 is bulkier, but feel solid like a tank (which should serve our purpose better). On par with the T40 ATI 7500 as far as performance. Any difference is negligible to normal user (especially students). We really like this unit, even test drops of 3 inches could not shut it down (closed lid while on, open lid while off)

Special thanks to underclocker and seaweedsl for your links, we'll look at R51s.

[ajkula66]

th3fro6 wrote:

2.The T40 with ATI 9000 is very solid, big complaint comparing to the ATI 7500 is the screen. While having more memory and higher resolution, the ATI 9000 is blurry and washout when set side by side. White is yellowish, character is not as sharp. Both unit are set at 1024x768, Cleartype. We may not have tweaked the ATI to its best settings. We appreciate any tip/suggestion.

You have it set at the wrong resolution. These machines should run at 1400x1050, and no wonder that the screen is blurry. Any non-native resolution on a laptop will get you exactly that result.

[th3fro6]

You have it set at the wrong resolution. These machines should run at 1400x1050, and no wonder that the screen is blurry. Any non-native resolution on a laptop will get you exactly that result.

Did not know that ATI 9000 runs at its native 1400x1050. Thanks to ajkula66.
Any idea regarding the yellowish white? Is it b/c of the backlit going old? Already tried adjusting the brightness, contrast and gamma settings.

[rkawakami]

Any idea regarding the yellowish white? Is it b/c of the backlit going old?

Besides the backlight aging. which normally causes a pinkish tint at reduced brightness settings, it's possible that the surface of the LCD screen has yellowed due to second-hand smoke.

[GomJabbar]

Besides the backlight aging. which normally causes a pinkish tint at reduced brightness settings, it's possible that the surface of the LCD screen has yellowed due to second-hand smoke.

Or has yellowed from cleaning the LCD with the wrong cleaning agent.

http://isweb.fdu.edu/computing/lcd.html

[dr_st]

Dunno why ethyl alcohol is in the bad cleaner list, though. I seriously doubt anyone has any studies showing the harm that can be caused by ethyl alcohol (but not by isopropyl alcohol).

[GomJabbar]

Dunno why ethyl alcohol is in the bad cleaner list, though. I seriously doubt anyone has any studies showing the harm that can be caused by ethyl alcohol (but not by isopropyl alcohol).

Samsung says the same thing. How To Clean Your LCD Monitor Screen

[th3fro6]

Or has yellowed from cleaning the LCD with the wrong cleaning agent.

http://isweb.fdu.edu/computing/lcd.html

Really appreciate everyone's input.

1. Impressed with the T40s, we bought 2 more units of the same year (one w/ ATI 9000 and one w/ 7500). Found that both 9000s have the white being yellowish, and both 7500s are whiter with a hint of blue. To us, the 7500s have nicer white. This is just to address our curiosity, not having any weight on our decision since the units are not intended to do graphics/photos. The cleaning agents do not seem to be the culprit. We were told that isopropyl does not react with the film on the screen the same way as the ethanol, may be this is why ethanol should not be used.

2. Regarding the GPU problem mentioned earlier, we seem to address it, at least at user's level, by removing the keyboard, placing a small aluminum heat sink on top of the GPU, tightening the keyboard screw at the touchpad area seems to assert enough pressure to alleviate the solder issue of the GPU. Thickness of the heat sink is crucial, we found the sweet spot at 9mm. Of course, none of this is any engineering/scientific quest; just an inexpensive workaround costing a few dollars. The units went through some not-so-rough-but-just-not-tender handlings for 2 weeks; not even a hiccup once. Let's see how long this will hold.