Thinkpads Forum

jdhurst wrote:I could same the same thing about a touch pad as you did about the track point. ... JDH

You could say it, but not be accurate. The main advantage of the trackpoint that I've heard the most (besides simple preference) is that you don't have to move your hands to use the pointer. That's what I'm saying is really a negligible advantage. The types of things trackpoint fans do with their machines, in the aggregate, aren't going to be different, either.

I just don't see how reduced hand strain, increased speed, increased functionality, lack of drift etc. can be negligible advantages for a touchpad. I also believe, having used both pretty extensively, that anyone who extensively used both would find the actual speed of moving the pointer to be much faster and involve less strain using a properly set up touchpad. (And looking at wikipedia after typing the previous text, it looks like I'm right.)

It is just a cultural thing that makes diehard fans prefer the trackpoint IMHO. Perhaps some used machines where only the trackpoint was available, or perhaps it was actually superior in the early days of the touchpad. No longer.

jvarszegi wrote:<snp>
You could say it, but not be accurate. <snip>

That, too, is merely your own view. If it really worked better for me, I would use it. But it does not work better for me. Like I said, it is purely personal preference. You use what you want, and I willl use what I want. ... JDH

jdhurst wrote:That, too, is merely your own view. If it really worked better for me, I would use it. But it does not work better for me. Like I said, it is purely personal preference. You use what you want, and I willl use what I want. ... JDH

You're free to prefer what you like, and I'm not saying that anyone should do away with the trackpoint as an option. But the fact remains that it is simply not as good functionally as a touchpad in real, measurable ways. So here, your personal preference is to continue using something that is slower, contributes to hand cramping, has a drifting problem, etc.

And I am completely fine with your preference being for something that's simply not as functionally good, don't get me wrong. But your opinion doesn't change hard facts about why it is not as good: it is slower (not an opinion but a fact), etc. This is my view, and it's correct; just as I hold the view that 2 + 2 = 4.

jvarszegi wrote:

But the fact remains that it is simply not as good functionally as a touchpad in real, measurable ways.

Could you provide some verifiable data backing this statement up?

I agree with JDH that we are mainly dealing with personal preferences in this "debate". However, I also find jvarszegi's statement below very important:

jvarszegi wrote:I also believe, having used both pretty extensively, that ...

I too have used both input methods extensively, and I too have come to the conclusion that the touchpad is superior in terms of speed and accuracy (though the soft rim trackpoint strains me a little less than the touchpad). It makes me wonder how many of the trackpoint fans on this forum have tried both equally extensively. If more people would learn to master the touchpad, I bet that more of them would have preferred the touchpad.

jvarszegi wrote:a properly set up touchpad.

That's another key phrase that you mentioned, and I agree 100%. From my experience, for the touchpad to work well, the pointer speed MUST be maximized. If it's anything slower than that, the trackpoint would work better.

I use both TrackPoint and TouchPad roughly equally. I took some time to setup both to my needs and they are both fast. I tend to prefer one over the other depending on the task at hand. That being said, if someone forced me to choose only one, I would go with the TrackPoint.

Another advantage of TrackPoint is that is uses a lot less space which is important for small devices. Take netbooks for example, their tiny TouchPads are just PITA, especially when scrolling.

Maybe this thread will change the pool results:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=86012

jvarszegi wrote:<snip>
And I am completely fine with your preference being for something that's simply not as functionally good, don't get me wrong. But your opinion doesn't change hard facts about why it is not as good: it is slower <snip>

I have used a touchpad. I do wish you would stop telling me that I do not properly understand what I am doing. I use the trackpoint because the touchpad is so intolerably unusable for me. I am not trying to influence any one else. Why is that so hard for you to understand.

... JDH

jdhurst wrote:I have used a touchpad. I do wish you would stop telling me that I do not properly understand what I am doing.

I didn't say you don't know what you're doing. But what you're doing is similar to preferring a Ford Escort over a better-performing car, just because you do. So while you can do that, I can note advantages of touchpads in response.


Those advantages I've noted specifically, instead of coming out and saying that trackpoints are unusable, that nobody could possibly use them to do actual work, etc. etc. etc. Just to contrast, earlier you wrote:

jdhurst wrote:On any laptop computer of any make and of any OS, the touchpad has a mind of its own and is unuseable. Most of the people I know who must use touchpads (a) dislike them; and (b) use two hands to use them.

I think those statements are silly, and way more aggressive than anything I've posted. I mean, golly! I haven't noticed my touchpad having a mind of its own or being unusable! I have actually not used the trackpoint once on my new X100e, and used it only sporadically on my T60, the Thinkpad I used for the last couple of years previous to this. And I do work on my laptop. So whose statements are unreasonable?

I know a lot of people who use laptops, and have not observed ANY of them using a trackpoint or similar pointing stick, as far as I can remember. Every last Mac user I've seen uses a touchpad. I think that the use of the trackpoint today is largely a cultural phenomenon. Perhaps you've never seen anyone use anything but Thinkpads, or you hang out with only Thinkpad fans. I wouldn't know; but I do know that in the laptop using community at large there are scads of people who use touchpads every day without complaint, and trackpoint use is not as widespread as you may think.

I'm not trying to change your mind. Without meaning to be insulting in the slightest, that is obviously impossible on this issue.

jvarszegi wrote:<snip> jdhurst wrote "On any laptop computer of any make and of any OS, the touchpad has a mind of its own and is unuseable. <snip>

I think those statements are silly, and way more aggressive than anything I've posted. I mean, golly! I haven't noticed my touchpad having a mind of its own or being unusable! <snip>

I am going to end my participation here: You need to understand that my statement immediately above is 100.0% true for me. It therefore cannot be silly, and this is precisely what I do not like about your posts - You calling me sillly and ignorant without so much as a clue what you know about me or what I do. So stop now. ... JDH

jvarszegi wrote:But the fact remains that it is simply not as good functionally as a touchpad in real, measurable ways.

The only fact that remains is that you continue to confuse your own personal opinions with actual facts.

jvarszegi wrote:This is my view, and it's correct; just as I hold the view that 2 + 2 = 4.

Wrong. 2+2=4 is not a view, it's a fact. Your opinions are just that - opinions. A good lesson in logic may do you good.

ajkula66 wrote:Could you provide some verifiable data backing this statement up?

No, he cannot. There can never be any verifiable data backing this statement, because the statement itself is not even well-defined. Heck, how can you claim that something is faster or more accurate than something else, when speed and accuracy are user-configurable parameters of the device? Compare a trackpoint on fast speed with a touchpad on slow, and you have one picture. Reverse the configuration, and it changes. So it ultimately is only determined by the comfort level of the individual users, which means that it is a matter of personal preference and individual set of skills.

The analogy of cars is completely false, because cars do undergo performance test to determine their maximum speed, and you can quantify it. But just because the car can go 500 kilometers per hour does not mean you can actually navigate it at that speed in normal driving environments, so it's a pretty useless benchmark. When it comes to pointing devices, the driver's upper bound on sensitivity is there not because the devices cannot go faster, but because 99% of the users will find higher speeds unusable.

Not to mention that the trackpoint, the touchpad, the mouse, and the trackball are fundamentally different enough, that it's hard even to define reasonable benchmarks between them. It's not like comparing one car to another, but more like comparing a car to a motorcycle to a helicopter to a boat.

dr_st wrote:Wrong. 2+2=4 is not a view, it's a fact.

... and I hold the view that that fact is correct. Do you miss context much when you read? In context, I was pointing out the inappropriate use of the word "view" by someone else. I'm sorry that my comment went over your head.

No, he cannot. There can never be any verifiable data backing this statement, because the statement itself is not even well-defined. Heck, how can you claim that something is faster or more accurate than something else, when speed and accuracy are user-configurable parameters of the device?

That just doesn't make sense. One can for example easily craft an experiment using two separate input devices, let the users configure them as they wished, and then time them performing certain discrete tasks, like clicking on different areas of the screen.

I'm guessing you decided to post because you perceived some sort of attitude problem on my part (it doesn't exist BTW), not because you really had something to add. Next time, think before you thoughtlessly attack someone. Your "information" on the impossibility of quantifying results of user interface tests is simply false.

jvarszegi wrote:That just doesn't make sense. One can for example easily craft an experiment using two separate input devices, let the users configure them as they wished, and then time them performing certain discrete tasks, like clicking on different areas of the screen.

And I take it from your earlier posts that you have set up and performed such an experiment, with a sufficiently large set of users who are equally proficient with both pointing devices, and have obtained conclusive results showing your opinions to be facts? Or you at least know of such an experiment having been done?

I'm under the opinion that if you could, you would already present such results. The fact that you didn't says something.

dr_st wrote:And I take it from your earlier posts that you have set up and performed such an experiment, with a sufficiently large set of users who are equally proficient with both pointing devices, and have obtained conclusive results showing your opinions to be facts? Or you at least know of such an experiment having been done?

Yes, such studies are done fairly often. Now, on what basis do you assert that a usability experiment with quantifiable results cannot be performed? I'm still scratching my head on that one.

jvarszegi wrote:

Yes, such studies are done fairly often.

Could you provide a link to one such study addressing the issue that is being discussed in this thread?

Trackpoint (I call it Nipple mouse) Hands down, no contest, no brainer.

I tend to type quite fast, and being able to also control the mouse without taking my hands away from the keyboard keeps my overall speed up.

+1 (as JDH once wrote "Vastly more productive for me")

I never need to type a few characters, quickly move the mouse, type a few more, move it again, etc.

I need to do this on a regular basis. Copy, cut, paste, edit in Word documents and similar tasks in forms, database files and other office/business software. The vast majority of the software I've used since the late 1970's has required this sort of input.

…trackpoint use is not as widespread as you may think

The survey results appear to contradict this assertion. It seems that where one has the option of the trackpoint, it is the overwhelming preference.

dsvochak wrote:The survey results appear to contradict this assertion. It seems that where one has the option of the trackpoint, it is the overwhelming preference.

... yes, among this tiny pool of dyed-in-the-wool Thinkpad fans. A survey of such a population shows nothing about the laptop-using public at large. In fact, it probably doesn't show much about Thinkpad users at large, for example many who are now using their first-ever Thinkpad due to aggressive recent marketing by Lenovo and know nothing about the history of the trackpoint or this forum. Many will just have come to their first Thinkpad from other machines where they likely used a touchpad, and see a touchpad on their new Thinkpad too.

There was a CNET web poll that showed about 70% preference for touchpads, until IIRC a Thinkpad user's forum elsewhere marshaled its membership to skew the results.

Here's a non-Thinkpad informal survey that's at least as valid as the one in this thread, and likely more valid simply by lack of brand preference skewing the results. Keep in mind that pointing devices have been widely available for many years now on other brands.
http://www.codeproject.com/Surveys/904/ ... u-use.aspx

So it's not like the survey here is invalid; it is perfectly valid, as a survey of the preferences of the people who frequent this site, a particular subset of Thinkpad users. And I'm not surprised by the results in the slightest.

I would also suggest that if you are popping around typing a few characters, then moving the mouse, then typing a few characters again etc. ad infinitum, you are not using productivity software the way most people do. Go sit in a coffee house sometime and watch people write with their laptops. You'll see most using touchpads, and you won't see the large number of transitions you seem to have personally experienced regularly since the 70s.

jvarszegi wrote:

Go sit in a coffee house sometime and watch people write with their laptops. You'll see most using touchpads

That's hardly the most productive part of the laptop users' population as a whole, don't you think? Navigating the social networking sites (which is what most of these people do) doesn't count as being too productive, not in my book anyway...

dsvochak wrote:The survey results appear to contradict this assertion. It seems that where one has the option of the trackpoint, it is the overwhelming preference.

Indeed this seems to be the truth.

jvarszegi wrote:A survey of such a population shows nothing about the laptop-using public at large.

It is meaningless to ask the general laptop-using public, since a touchpad is available on 99.9% of the laptops, whereas a trackpoint only on maybe 10% (Thinkpads, some DELL/HP business model, and very very few others). Most of the users answering these global surveys don't own or have never owned one of these models, and therefore don't have any meaningful trackpoint experience. Their opinion, therefore, is largely unqualified on this matter.

Just like I, for example, can tell you that I prefer Thinkpads to Macbooks, and at the same time, I am not qualified to judge which one is really better, or whether it can even be determined, since I never owned a Macbook or used one extensively.

I think it's more than 10%. But it is true that a lot of people have never had an opportunity to use both, and those people shouldn't be counted, just as some people who currently don't use or even have a pointing stick have tried one at some point in their lives. There isn't any way to separate these people by observation at a coffee house, no matter how many happy touchpad users one sees in such places.

If the general ergonomics, build quality and support didn't keep pulling me back to Thinkpads, I might have been typing on a trackpointless machine at this very moment. So I guess I could have fallen in the category of people who have used the trackpoint but don't prefer it, and wouldn't make future buying choices based on it. (Although I have to say that I am a little more comfortable having it around, just in case the touchpad fails.)

I have use a Trackpoint on my ThinkPads and a TouchPad on my Presario. My overall preference..... I cheat and plug a mouse in. I like that best for speed and accuracy.

Majestic wrote:I cheat and plug a mouse in. I like that best for speed and accuracy.

I think lots of people (including myself) also find an external mouse to be faster than either a trackpoint or a touchpad. This proves that just because you don't to move your hand to reach the trackpoint, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the fastest method. It's true that you waste a few milliseconds when you move your hand to reach for the external mouse, but as soon as you start moving the pointer, it's so much faster and more accurate than the trackpoint that you end up saving time. This also explains why I prefer the touchpad over the trackpoint.

IIRC studies consistently show that the mouse and/or stylus is the fastest, most accurate pointing device in common use.

ajkula66 wrote:Could you provide a link to one such study addressing the issue that is being discussed in this thread?

Apparently he could not, but let me do it for him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick

Scroll down to the section that compares the two pointing devices, and you'll see references to several studies (NOT just-for-fun polls like this thread). These studies concluded that the touchpad is faster than the trackpoint, which doesn't surprise me at all.

Disclaimer: I am accessing the internet on my phone right now and haven't had a chance to read the full text of those studies yet.

I noticed that paragraph. Among the 4 mentioned studies, one is available as a full text, and for one other I managed to find the abstract. But it was conducted by the same people, so probably methods and results are similar.

The full text (9) says that the touchpad was 15% faster, "as expected". First, it makes it look like the study was biased from the beginning. Reading their introduction further confirms that the inferiority of the trackpoint was taken by them as a working hypothesis, which they just wanted to "verify".

Their claim is that the touchpad is more intuitive because finger motion correspond more accurately to cursor motion, whereas with a trackpoint, pressure is translated into motion. So far these facts are clear, however I do not agree with their conclusion that it makes the trackpoint more difficult to use.

What's definitely true is that the learning curve of the trackpoint is higher. Which is why it is not surprising that their study, which deliberately consisted of novice users, showed the touchpad to be faster. It also explains why many people never go past the initial hurdle with trackpoints and continue using touchpads.

The picture changes when it comes to experienced users. An experience trackpoint user will find it just as intuitive to control the cursor by varying pressure (trackpoint) as by varying finger location (touchpad).

My personal experience, which the survey on this forum seems to support, is that while novices tend to prefer touchpads (initially more intuitive, more common and therefore more familiar), users with sufficient experience with both generally favor the trackpoint. I know quite a few people who, having used both and having reached a level of proficiency with the trackpoint, swear to never use a touchpad again. You (pianowizard) are one of the very few people I know who actually made the opposite switch and in the end prefers the pad.

Most of the people who I've asked about their preference and who preferred touchpads usually gave explanations along the lines of "I could never get the hang of the trackpoint". Most of these users aren't nearly as fast with their touchpad as I am with my trackpoint, which leads me to believe that they are just stuck (maybe forever) in the "novice" area.

All this led me to conclude that, while there will always be exceptions, touchpads will be preferred by novices, and trackpoints by experienced users.

TrackPoint all the way, A21p and X61t don't have the useless Touchpad and I enable it on my T42p only for guest users. At work I have Thinkpad USB keyboard with TrackPoint and have mouse for guests or occasional after hours game. When it comes to which is better: I can challenge you to FPS of choice that is playable on T42p (Enemy Territory, ...), you use touchpad, I use trackpoint, lets see who wins.

Otherwise: Trackpoint is less favored because it's only found on Thinkpads in proper implementation, Dells and HPs have bad caps (though you can fit Thinkpad caps on them if you want) and less accurate Trackpoints. Therefore most users are used to Touchpad, even I became used to one because of lots of work on non-trackpoint other people's laptops. Another point is that concept of Trackpoint is different as you input acceleration instead of position like with mouse or trackpad, so it takes a while to become accustomed but once you do it's better pointing device. The scientific way to determine which is better would be to pick sufficient samples of users of both and have them perform various tasks (web surfing, office use, doing gaming and photo retouching) and then measure which group of users performs the tasks better.

That's already been done. Despite being "useless", only "preferred by novices", etc. touchpads are actually the better pointing device.

I was exclusive trackpoint user (only when I do not use mouse though)...

But trackpoint can sometimes be hard on my finger(s) and wrist, no matter which cap I use...

And since my touchpad went multigesture a week ago, I must admit it is really refreshing to use it for surfing web or other simple everyday tasks...it is a big difference when someone use classic one-finger touchpad or one with multigesture capabilities...and you can add that factor to your what-is-faster discussion...

For anything more serious I use mouse anyway...

Playing FPS with anything but the mouse is unthinkable...

Utwig wrote:Otherwise: Trackpoint is less favored because it's only found on Thinkpads in proper implementation, Dells and HPs have bad caps (though you can fit Thinkpad caps on them if you want) and less accurate Trackpoints.

You are correct. The quality of implementation determines a lot, both for trackpoint and for touchpad. Some laptops have excellent pads (Apple, others), while others have bad traction, respond poorly to sweat, are inaccurate and what not. Same about trackpoints. I've tried DELL's and they never felt as good. HP/Compaq was actually great after using a Thinkpad cap, and not nearly as good before that.