BSOD Not_Less_Than_Equal only when away from Home network

[csturnbull]

Have a T42 running XP which is used for vehicle diagnostics, email, and some browsing. It works fine within the home wireless network. Absolutely great fast little machine. However when I take to certain venues it will give me the Not_Less_Than_Equal BSOD about 20 second after boot. It will run in Safe Mode but that is about it. If I go into Bios and disable wireless it will boot fine and I can use my diagnostics normally but of course no Internet. If on my way home I choose to park up and enable wireless in the Bios it is fine as long as I am not in range of any wireless networks and it boots just fine. I now have to do Function+5 on shut down if I am going to a site to use the diagnostic programme later. This not a good workaround as I do forget to do this and then the whole thing starts again, I have the latest wireless drivers(as far as I know) so stumped really. Any suggestions would really help and I do hope this makes sense.
Thanks
Clive
PS I have tried msconfig and not loading all drivers etc but that still gives me a BSOD when in range of wireless.

[Neil]

Welcome to the forum!

According to Microsoft; "Typically, this error occurs when a driver uses an incorrect memory address. Other possible causes of this error include an incompatible device driver, a general hardware problem, or incompatible software."

If a better driver doesn't fix the problem, I'd be looking for a better wireless adapter. Which adapter does your T42 have?

[csturnbull]

Many thanks for your reply and interest. Not quite sure which adapter I have as it is internal. Is there somewhere I can find this out without looking inside? Sorry to be a bit thick!
Thanks
Clive

[Neil]

Sure, there are a number of ways:

1. Open device manager to see what device driver is installed. It "may" be the right one for the device.

2. Plug in the seven character type number for your machine in the "quick path" box here: http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/downloads/default.page?

3. A little more trouble, but the best way to be sure what you have. Remove the keyboard and palm rest to put eyes on the actual hardware.

[csturnbull]

Looked in Device Manager and it lists it as Intel(R)Pro/Wireless2200BG with drivers C:\WINNT\sytem32\w22ns.sys and C:\WINNT\system32\w22ncpa.dll.
I have done as you suggested and entered 2373-L94. It does show my adapter but I have no way of knowing if I have the correct drivers. I have tried driver update and it says I have the latest already.
Hope this makes sense as I am no expert.
Thanks
Clive

[Neil]

OK, Clive, you've done great so far. Although, there seems to be a discrepancy between the driver installed and what Lenovo quick path shows.

2373-4L94: P M 735, 512MB RAM, 40GB 5400rpm HDD, 14.1 XGA(1024x768) TFT LCD, 32MB ATI Radeon 7500, 24x24x24x/8x CD-RW/DVD, IBM 802.11b/g wireless, Modem, 1Gb Ether, UltraNav, Sec Chip, 6 cell Li-Ion Batt, WinXP Pro

If I'm not mistaken the IBM wireless adapters have the Atheros chip and not Intel. I wouldn't think the Atheros card would work at all with the Intel driver, though. So, if the original was replaced with an Intel adapter, or the Lenovo site is wrong and your machine did come with the 2200BG Intel adapter, then you might have the correct driver already. Some folks, however, have had better luck with drivers directly from Intel instead of what Lenovo provides.

Like Microsoft said, the problem could be caused by faulty hardware, but let's rule out the software and driver first. A couple of ways of doing this are by downloading and intalling the driver from Intel linked above, and see how it compares with what you have now. Or, boot up a live Linux distro and see how your hardware performs with completely different software and drivers. This will also give you a chance to confirm which adapter you have.

[csturnbull]

Thanks for getting back so quickly.
I am getting a little nervous now as I don't want to lose what I have. If I create a restore point will that allow me to revert to the driver I am using now? In the tray I have the Pro wireless connection manager giving me details of my adapter as Intel Pro/wireless 2200BG and my driver as 8.0.12.20000 and if I left click it it allows me to turn off or go into power save etc. I should have posted details of this before but to be honest I never really noticed what I could do with it. I just thought it was a connection strength monitor. Would all this work if it had the IBM Adapter?
I also notice if I right click the small computer in the tray I seem to get the Windows Zero list(hope that's right) Does that mean I have two programmes trying to manage my connection and if so could this cause a problem? Not sure about Linux but I think I have a Linux Mint disk somewhere. Just wish I knew more and had the confidence to just get on with it!!
Thanks for your ongoing help
Regards
Clive

[Orclas]

Don't worry Clive, although one can never fully be safe from "random acts of the IT-god", normally no/few things can go wrong when updating a driver for something like a network card. For starters, if the machine don't see the driver matching the hardware, it wont install at all. Second, worst thing that can happen is that you loose your wi-fi functionality while fixing things.

As previously mentioned, you have two drivers to choose from, the IBM/Lenovo ones or the Intel ones, which you find here (version 9.0.4.39). I see no reason not to try the Intel one and for peace of mind, you may also go ahead and download also the Lenovo one and have it available as an install file if the Intel driver is a no-go.

If you're a slightly worried rookie, there are a few theoretical /what you would probably feel is/ bumps you could run into if the Intel driver do not work, but it's very much easy-to-fix bumps and we'll be here for you in such case.

As for the Microsoft Zero and Intel PROSet running in parallell, I have no clue if it could be a culprit, but if I remember correctly there's some setting for disabling MS Zero/letting PROSet manage it alone. Alternatively, and if you don't use the functionality of PROSet, you could just uninstall it. It's just a wireless networks management software and appropriate driver plus the built in Zero Config should still let you use wi-fi just fine. In case you want to reinstall, just use Lenovo update software on your computer, go to the Lenovo download site or try directly from Intel here (just needed to do a page back from driver url, so may just as well provide it to you).

Good luck and don't worry, you'll be fine

[csturnbull]

Many thanks for the reassurance, I will go ahead and install the Intel driver when I arrive home from work this evening. Do I have to uninstall the present driver or just install over the top?
I will then try the T42 in the field on Tuesday at the same venue as the last BSOD.
Sorry for being a bit hesitant it's probably an age thing(73) and although I have a few laptops I just love this one. Don't know what it is about it!! If I can't connect I will login on another laptop and let you know.
Thanks
Clive

[Orclas]

You can go ahead and just install it on top of the old one, i.e. replacing it.

Sorry for being a bit hesitant it's probably an age thing(73) and although I have a few laptops I just love this one. Don't know what it is about it!!

I think it's mostly about having a comfort level of knowledge or not, I'd bet that there are things about cars where the roles would be the opposite. As for loving your Thinkpad, I and all the other people on this forum know what you mean, my old T40 (with all it's limitation) has that "it just feels so right" thing about it

[csturnbull]

Sorry for delay in posting, neighbours called round!
Did as you suggested and all has gone well. I did end up with a different Connection Manager which had a red cross in it and didn't list any networks. I think it's probably because Windows is managing the connection. I have gone into msconfig and stopped it from starting with Windows. Connects just fine so if possible I will take it to where I was getting the crashes tomorrow pm. Fingers crossed.
Take your point about cars and computers . I never get nervous with cars, I am so used to them!
My T42 was given to me out of a friends cupboard where it had been lying covered in dust for about 18 months. I now have it gleaming and spotless and my two Toshiba Satellites rarely see the light of day. May have to get a battery at some stage although it isn't bad enough to cause me any problems. I just wish I could renovate the rubber type coating on the lid but it isn't really bad.
Thanks again for all your help. Will keep you informed

[csturnbull]

Just an update.
Not good results, same problem and computer took ages to shutdown with "program not responding-end now sample" or something like that, also lost the Fn+F5 facility. I'm afraid I have had to uninstall and revert back.
I do wonder why this BSOD only happens adjacent to company wi-fi's where there are lots of computers on a large network. This happens for me with two of such companies that are miles apart and not related, it never happens on home networks of neighbours etc. Everything then works as normal.
Clive

[Orclas]

Sorry to hear this did not sovle the problem, time for some digging...

I would suggest considering a few of the following things:

- are there any differences between your home wi-fi and the corporate ones? Encryption?
- is the BIOS updated?
- is there anything in the systems logs that could give a clue (right click My computer => Manage)?
- what is the BSOD resource address that shows with the error (something like 0x0000000A)?
- run Memtest86to check if you have a faulty RAM. If any errors are shown, test again with first one, then the other stick removed in order to identify the culprit
- perhaps even better, download Ultimate Boot CD, which is pretty much a one stop shop for various diagnostics and utility tools, including a fully functional and bootable Linux environment
- consider booting into that environment away from home, does it work then?
- open the machine up and reseat RAMS, wireless card and whatever else is not on the actual mobo

That's all I can think of from the top of my mind, more in depth knowledgeable members may have more to add. In case you have any questions or feel uncomfortable with any of the steps, please get back for more detailed advice.

[csturnbull]

Many thanks for reply, I will work my way through your list of items at weekend to see if I can come up with anything( I have already tested the ram so ok there)
The more I look at this problem the more I think it may be a setting or encryption like you suggest. I worked all day on a Mercedes in a residential area and the T42 worked just fine showing all the local houses in range and the owner of the vehicle gave me their WEP code and I logged on no problem at all. I just feel that the T42 is working fine except when in range of two quite large companies so what can the difference be between these wi-fi connections?
Bit beyond me! Last visit to one of these companies I did Fn+F5 and turned off the wireless before reaching my destination and all worked OK. Maybe I should live with it now I am getting the hang of it. Thinkpad is great in every other way.
Thanks for all help received. Great forum.
Clive

[Neil]

This is most likely not the same situation, but I have a little anecdot from my experience that might show what different kinds of wifi signals can do.

A few years ago I sold a ThinkPad (600X) with a Orinoco 802.11b PCMCIA wifi adapter, that worked fine on my home network, and at every public hot spot I tested it at. But, when the buyer tried to use it at their son's home, it would stop responding. No BSOD, just no response from keyboard or mouse. Had to do a hard power off. Then Windows would not boot, it would hang during the loading of drivers. Anyway, after a few days of experimenting, I determine that this behavior only happened in the presence of a 802.11n signal, encrypted or not (we turned encryption off on the son's routed as a test, and still got the same result). Didn't have to try to connect to the network, just be within range of the signal and Windows wouldn't boot or would stop functioning. Whereas with a 802.11a/b/g signals all was OK.

I've always thought this was very strange behavior, but there are some similarities to your experience, or so it would seem.

[csturnbull]

Yes, there are certainly similarities because they are both affected by a wifi signal. Today I went to the other company premises and they were most helpful. They switched off their router while I booted the computer. Worked fine, then they booted the router and as soon as it synced I got a BSOD. They then offered to try a spare router and then we realized their original router was a cable router and we couldn't do it. This appears to be the only difference between the residential and the company environment as there are very few domestic cable connections in this area. Question is why should there be a difference between a cable and an ADSL router signal? Perhaps it's just a coincidence and it has no significance? Maybe it could have been a similar thing with the one you had?
Plot thickens!!
Thanks
Clive

[Orclas]

Question is why should there be a difference between a cable and an ADSL router signal?

There shouldn't be and if anything, I would have expected cheap residential gateways (the collective term for combined ADSL/cable** modem/firewall/router/switch/wireless access point) to have more sloppy wireless protocol implementation than corporate grade access points. On the other hand, perhaps your T42 prefers it sloppy

As it looks, your best remedy is probably to swap wi-fi card for another compatible FRU. They can be found quite cheaply off for example e-bay and I'm sure you could manage the swap easily following IBM/Lenovos excellent guides to exchanging parts, of which you find a list under the headline "Resource" on this page. You only need to lift the keyboard and palmrest to gain access, which is pretty basic stuff.



** "Cable" is usually used for cable TV distributed Internet, whereas I assume that by cable you mean something in the direction of wired access over ethernet, not involving a modem and not "transported on wires originally used for something else".

[csturnbull]

Thanks for your reply. By cable I mean fibre optic(Unlike the majority of broadband connections in the UK, which use telephone lines or mobile networks, fibre-optic broadband is transferred along special cables under the ground. The signals move a lot faster than they do along copper cables and offer speeds of up to 100Mb.), I agree it should be better so I will plod on and perhaps try switching off and try a PCMCIA Buffalo wireless card which I have just to see if that works ok.
The IT guy at the company I visited said he had never known a wireless connection crash a computer before.
Many thanks for your help and I will post as soon as I find out more. At least I can turn off the wifi when I am using it for diagnostics as I don't need the connection at that time.
Thanks again
Clive

[Orclas]

[off topic]

and offer speeds of up to 100Mb

It can actually be a lot more than that, in the direction of "the sky is the limit". When I spent some time in telecom in the mid 90s, a typical fiber did 2Mb/s per pair (one cable may contain a large number of pairs, since each fiber is roughly the width of a hair), but I've seen mentioning of 10+Tb/s lately. That's of course backbone grade and with some pretty expensive gear. There are different quality fibers, but the distinguishing factor is the equipment at the end of the fibers and that's the beauty of it all. Under the right circumstance, an operator may double the capacity of a fiber stretch by just upgrading the end equipment and without spending a second digging.

You're still in many ways correct though, as 100Mb/s is a typical standard service level for fiber fed internet access.

I may add that my apartement complex has 100Mb/s (per flat) fiber fed internet service

[/off topic]

[csturnbull]

Must be great having speeds like that. Internet service providers offer all sorts of ADSL speeds here but when it comes to it, where I live in a rural area max we can get is 2mb!!
I will post more on my wireless problem if and when I can see some light at the end of the tunnel.
Thanks
Clive

[csturnbull]

I couldn't really let this go so I studied the Lenovo downloads page and followed the instructions to find my present WiFi driver by date. Having established this I noticed that any driver beginning 8.*** would not update without first uninstalling Intel Sebring and the Wireless Pro drivers.
I did this after I had downloaded and saved the latest drivers for the card I had identified. I then ran the driver file which only extracts it to my Drivers folder for wireless drivers and I then ran the setup file from within that folder. Everything went fine and I have been to one of the company sites that was troublesome and I am now able to connect to their wifi router. No crashes!! Really happy. I would like to say thanks for help received and it was a driver problem as first suggested. I think the crux was that the old drivers etc had to be uninstalled first.
Regards
Clive

PS Hope this makes sense, looks a bit of a messy post!

[Neil]

Congrats on getting things sorted. The important thing is...it works! And we learned some new things along the way.

[csturnbull]

Yes,
Great to get a result! Just a quick one off topic. Is the T61 altogether better than my T42? If not which would be the cream of the Thinkpads?
Regards
Clive

[Neil]

Generally, the T61 is considerably more advanced than a T42, but... Most of the T61 machines have defective nVIDIA graphics chips (as do laptops from other manufacturers of the era). There are some T61 with Intel graphics (I own such a model), that are very nice machines.

But, computers get generally better and better with each successive generation, so the T61 cannot be called the cream of the ThinkPads since they are several generations old now.

[Orclas]

Yey!!

Congrats on getting the problem sorted

As Neil says, there are a few generations of better performing Thinkpads out, but some would argue that the true Thinkpad feel hasn't really been there seen since the T6x series, which from a touch and feel perspective were close to the T4x series (I'm narrowing things down to T-series here, there are other series which I know little about). As long as your T42 does what you need it to, I'd stick to the good old "if it aint broken don't fix it"

[csturnbull]

Many thanks for the info on Thinkpad models. I am sure you are right it's just that when you have something you really like that is quite old you tend to think a later model might be even better but I am beginning to see that may not be the case so I am sticking with what I have.
One little snag I have is I can no way install Wordbiz Internet Scrabble on this machine although I have done it ok on two of my other laptops(Inspiron & Satellite Pro) I have downloaded the files and installed and no way will it run. I am using XP Pro just the same as the others. Not really important just curiosity.
Many thanks for help received
Regards
Clive

[Neil]

If Wordbiz Scrabble doesn't start when you try to run it you will probably need to install Microsoft Java Virtual Machine. Microsoft Java VM is no longer distributed with Windows, and must be user installed.

[csturnbull]

I did install this as it is mentioned on the site but still no go. Grrr