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New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#61 Post by Nameless » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:25 pm

Good point. Usually OWC has good quality stuff, but yes if so many people have had bad experiences with JMicron then maybe it's best to stay away.

That SATA mod is looking better all the time... :( :? :|

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#62 Post by RealBlackStuff » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:56 pm

SATA-mod (on your T43) is a much better solution.
After that you can use any SATA HD or SATA SSD, which are a lot cheaper than PATA drives!
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#63 Post by Xenomorph » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:33 pm

I'm not going to do a SATA mod.

I've replaced the LCD (I originally got the T43 with a smashed 1400x1050, and put in a new 1024x768), I've also swapped out the heatsink, fan, CPU (2.0 to 2.13 GHz), WiFi card (802.11n), RAM, etc. In all instances it was a simple as "unplug old, plug in new". The WiFi card required an extra wire to be grounded. But that was done with a random wire and a piece of tape.

The SATA mod requires soldering. I'm not good at soldering, especially not such a tiny area.

This PATA to SATA to SATA to PATA bridge is a simple "buy part, plug it in". If it doesn't work, then I will simply go without it.
I've already put enough time and money into this T43, and since getting it, I've got a few new laptops.
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#64 Post by Xenomorph » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:29 pm

OK, I just got the Crucial M500 drive (Marvell chipset).
Windows 8 install seemed to finish. It did not freeze up like with the SandForce drive, but performance was bad after install.

I think I have this stuff figured out. With any SSD on the T43 using the PATA to SATA adapter, you must disable TRIM.

I tested two SSDs:
Mushkin 120GB (SandForce): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 20-226-362
Crucial M500 120GB (Marvell): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820148697

I am using this mSATA to PATA adapter:
http://www.shopaddonics.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=ADMS25IDE

On both SSDs, when an OS was cloned to it, performance sucked. SDD activity was at 100% (viewable from Task Manager). Running "fsutil behavior set disabledeletenotify 1" as admin gave an *immediate* performance improvement.

Since you cannot use OS TRIM, I would first recommend a SandForce drive (its built-in active garbage collection is comparable to OS TRIM). You cannot do a clean install of Windows 7 or 8 on the SandForce drive, as the Windows install will fail (XP, Vista, and Ubuntu versions lower than 14.04 should also install without issue).

Recommended install method for SSD (and required if you have a SandForce drive):
* Install Windows 7 or 8 to the HDD in the T43.
* Disable TRIM (fsutil behavior set disabledeletenotify 1)
* Clone that drive to your SSD.

If you already have a working Windows 7/8 install to HDD that you want to keep, do this:
* Disable TRIM (fsutil behavior set disabledeletenotify 1)
* Clone that drive to your SSD.

If you already have a working Windows 7/8 install that you want to keep, and it was upgraded from XP (and so your partition is aligned at the 63 byte), do this:
* Disable TRIM (fsutil behavior set disabledeletenotify 1)
* Create an NTFS partition on the SSD with an Ubuntu 11+ disc (so that it is 4K-aligned).
* Clone the Windows HDD partition to the 4K-aligned SSD partition with something like Clonezilla
* Boot your Windows disc and repair the startup (since the partition now starts at byte 2048 instead of 63)

Edit: I've read that the Crucial M500 has decent garbage collection, as well (for running without TRIM). I'm trying to get more information on the M500. I'd hate to return another SSD to Amazon, since I've already returned two to them this month! The key here is *active* garbage collection as part of the wear-leveling. AnandTech has shown that SandForce drives have great active garbage collection (the drive self-cleans during write operations). Drives like from Samsung usually have passive garbage collection. They do better with lots of idle time (paired with OS TRIM). I've found one mention of the M500 having active garbage collection, but I'm still looking for more information on it. This is important if you go without OS TRIM.
Last edited by Xenomorph on Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#65 Post by ajkula66 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:40 pm

@Xenomorph:

Kudos for persistence. Seriously.

Can you post the Crystal Disk Mark results for whatever SSD you currently have in that T43? TIA.
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#66 Post by Xenomorph » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:48 pm

ajkula66 wrote:@Xenomorph:

Kudos for persistence. Seriously.

Can you post the Crystal Disk Mark results for whatever SSD you currently have in that T43? TIA.
Give me a few minutes. I wiped the drive and now I'm putting a clone of my old Windows install on it. It was 63-byte aligned from an old Windows install. I'm cloning it to a 2048-byte aligned partition, so I'll need to boot Windows 8 off CD and repair the startup stuff. :/

I hit 92MB/sec with the Mushkin drive (tested under Windows XP), and I hit 88MB/sec with the Crucial drive (tested under a clean install of Windows 8).
I know the Crucial drive (rated for 130MB/sec, 35K IOPs) is slower than the Mushkin drive (525MB/sec, 80K IOPs).

Edit: and here they are:

Windows 8.1, Toshiba 120GB HDD (one of the officially supported drives by the original BIOS):
Image

Windows 8.1, Crucial 120GB SSD (with SATA to PATA adapter):
Image
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#67 Post by ajkula66 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:57 pm

Results from my SATA-modded T43p (2.26GHz/2GB RAM/Intel X-25E SLC SSD)
Sequential Read : 120.057 MB/s
Sequential Write : 114.573 MB/s
Random Read 512KB : 100.508 MB/s
Random Write 512KB : 92.409 MB/s
Random Read 4KB (QD=1) : 11.761 MB/s [ 2871.4 IOPS]
Random Write 4KB (QD=1) : 23.831 MB/s [ 5818.2 IOPS]
Random Read 4KB (QD=32) : 21.175 MB/s [ 5169.6 IOPS]
Random Write 4KB (QD=32) : 40.866 MB/s [ 9977.0 IOPS]

Test : 1000 MB [C: 54.0% (15.5/28.6 GB)] (x5)
Date : 2014/01/22 13:52:40
OS : Windows 7 Professional SP1 [6.1 Build 7601] (x86)
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#68 Post by lophiomys » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:19 pm

Just because it was time to perform another SSD checkup,
I got very similar results with a Samsung 830 MLC (50% overprovisioning)
in one of Ajkula66/RBS SATA-Modded T43p's.

Code: Select all

2014-01-22
T43p SATA Mod AJKULA66 II, 2668-H4U 
Samsung 830 128GB, 50% Overprovisioning
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskMark 3.0.1 (C) 2007-2010 hiyohiyo
                           Crystal Dew World : http://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 byte/s [SATA/300 = 300,000,000 byte/s]

           Sequential Read :   122.870 MB/s
          Sequential Write :   112.255 MB/s
         Random Read 512KB :    99.466 MB/s
        Random Write 512KB :   116.277 MB/s
    Random Read 4KB (QD=1) :    19.170 MB/s [  4680.1 IOPS]
   Random Write 4KB (QD=1) :    39.567 MB/s [  9660.0 IOPS]
   Random Read 4KB (QD=32) :    21.561 MB/s [  5264.0 IOPS]
  Random Write 4KB (QD=32) :    49.908 MB/s [ 12184.7 IOPS]

  Test : 1000 MB [C: 60.9% (17.8/29.2 GB)] (x5)
  Date : 2014/01/22 20:10:04
    OS : Windows 7 Ultimate Edition SP1 [6.1 Build 7601] (x86)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lophiomys
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#69 Post by Nameless » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:20 pm

Well after much deliberation I've decided to go with RBS's SATA mod. As I searched and searched for PATA SSD's, I discovered some things:

1 - None of the better-known SSD manufacturers make them.
2 - The ones that are out there either (a) use a bridge chip which puts me right back at square 1, (b) are of dubious quality with quite a few negative reviews, or (c) are native PATA and recommended by people on this forum but are ridiculously expensive (think almost 2x a native SATA SSD).
3 - The SATA mod lets me run with Trim enabled, which is really how one should operate an SSD.

Also compelling me is my Intel 2.5" SATA SSD which is smoking fast in my T60p, even at SATA 1 speeds.

So if anyone wants to buy my adapters (should work fine for T40-T42 models) send me a PM.

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#70 Post by Xenomorph » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:48 pm

OWC likes to push the idea that letting the SSD's firmware and chipset deal with garbage collection works just as well (if not better) than using OS's TRIM:
http://blog.macsales.com/11051-to-trim- ... the-answer

The SSD solution for my T43 was a $25 PATA adapter and a $80 mSATA SSD by a well-known company. That is pretty cheap ($105 for a 120GB SSD) - and it's a dead simple SSD solution that works. It may be limited to a peak throughput of 100/133MB of PATA and not 150MB of SATA, but random access and IOPS are still WAY faster than any regular hard drive.
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#71 Post by GACrabill » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:12 pm

I respect the decision that 'Nameless' has made ... but I agree totally with 'Xenomorph's comments.

One of the reasons that I recommended 'new' mSATA SSDs rather than 'old' models from eBay in the OP was that all of the major manufacturers are now doing a much better job of creating SSDs with better 'garbage collection' mechanisms in the firmware. Actually, they had to get more competive in this area since they don't know what operating system is going to be used with their SSD product. Some brands/models are better at GC than others ... it pays to do additional research on this subject if you choose to disable TRIM in Win7/8 in order to get an IDE-to-mSATA adapter to work in the HDD bay of a T43/R52.

I also think that the SSD speed differences between T40=100, T43=133, T43 w/Sata mod=150 would be tough to notice to the average user ... just like faster SSDs are tough to recognize from a user's perspective in side-by-side comparison tests.

If I had a T43/R52, I would do the 'Xenomorph' approach and limit the amount of money invested into that older single-processor technology.

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#72 Post by ajkula66 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:57 pm

GACrabill wrote:One of the reasons that I recommended 'new' mSATA SSDs rather than 'old' models from eBay in the OP was that all of the major manufacturers are now doing a much better job of creating SSDs with better 'garbage collection' mechanisms in the firmware.
I wouldn't be so certain.

What manufacturers have indeed learned is how to create cheaper SSDs, hence SLC>MLC>TLC transition.

Many newer drives have *huge* compatibility issues with ThinkPads in general and I'd trust an older but well-proven drive (Crucial C300/M4, Intel 320, Samsung 830) a lot more than newly released ones.
I also think that the SSD speed differences between T40=100, T43=133, T43 w/Sata mod=150 would be tough to notice to the average user ... just like faster SSDs are tough to recognize from a user's perspective in side-by-side comparison tests.
Agreed 101%.
If I had a T43/R52, I would do the 'Xenomorph' approach and limit the amount of money invested into that older single-processor technology.
That really depends on what one is trying to accomplish. From the sheer spending perspective, neither approach makes sense.

But for those of us who find the T4x machines - most notably the 15" UXGA variety - to be the pinnacle of IBM's design, money really isn't all that important. Keeping them running at a decent pace is the main goal.
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#73 Post by GACrabill » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:17 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
GACrabill wrote:One of the reasons that I recommended 'new' mSATA SSDs rather than 'old' models from eBay in the OP was that all of the major manufacturers are now doing a much better job of creating SSDs with better 'garbage collection' mechanisms in the firmware.
I wouldn't be so certain.
Do you know of some specific 'newer' brands/models whose garbage collection mechanisms are now worse than their older models ? .... That would be very valuable information.

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#74 Post by ajkula66 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:51 pm

GACrabill wrote: Do you know of some specific 'newer' brands/models whose garbage collection mechanisms are now worse than their older models ? .... That would be very valuable information.
You're missing my point.

I'm not about to start a SSD war here, which is *exactly* what will happen if I start following the route that you're suggesting.

For one, SLC drives do not require garbage collection to begin with.

I'll leave you with that.
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#75 Post by Xenomorph » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:36 pm

ajkula66 wrote: For one, SLC drives do not require garbage collection to begin with.

I'll leave you with that.
SLC cost a ton, and almost no consumer drives use it.
($1200 for this 120GB SLC SSD: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820227443)

Consumer drives use MLC, and some manufacturers (such as Samsung, which has a great reliability record) are switching to TLC.
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#76 Post by ajkula66 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:38 pm

ajkula66 wrote:I'm not about to start a SSD war here, which is *exactly* what will happen if I start following the route that you're suggesting.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#77 Post by Xenomorph » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:29 am

I've been trying to stress this SSD more in my T43.

After about ~300 GB of writes to the 120GB SSD, and with it 99% full, I ran a benchmark again.

Image

Random write performance did take a bit of a hit. I cleared off the drive again, let it sit idle for a while, power cycled, etc - but performance did not improve to pre-fill levels, which I'm guessing means OS TRIM would probably be better than its internal garbage collection. The Crucial M500 SSD I'm using has the Marvell 88SS9187 controller. I've only read about SandForce 2281 controllers having "great" garbage collection. However, as my previous posts pointed out, that controller seems to have issues with a PATA to SATA bridge.
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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#78 Post by GACrabill » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:04 am

I found the following post (and maybe the thread) interesting.
It discusses TRIM, garbage collection, Crucial M500, and Samsung 840 Pro (though not specifically mSATA versions) :
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.ph ... stcount=12

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#79 Post by Xenomorph » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:29 pm

One thing that may be of note regarding the SSD I am using; it is already a very slow SSD, even when not in an old T43.

Even in a modern 2014 system on a dedicated SATA III/6.0Gb controller, the drive is only rated for up to 130 MB/sec write speed. That is sub SATA I performance. It is also only rated at 35,000 IOPS.

Other SSDs (and larger capacity versions of the Crucial M500 I got) are usually rated at 300-500 MB/sec and 80,000 IOPS.
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#80 Post by automobus » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:26 pm

This post contains misinformation. I leave it here to preserve my trail of thought.

Xenomorph and Nameless, you both tried T43 containing Intel 915PM. I tried a T43 with Intel 915GM. All T43 with IGP contain Silicon Image SiI3811. All T43 with discrete graphics contain Marvell 88SA8040. (Thanks to RBS for confirming.)
This post contains misinformation.
I tested with a Samsung PM810 MZMPA128HMFU-000D1 (Dell part 190DF; firmware AXM18D1Q; controller 3C29MAX01-Y340)
This post contains misinformation.
Lycom ST-173 just does not work in my T43.
This post contains misinformation.
I also experimented with a Dell Inspiron 9300, which contains 88SA8040, just like your ThinkPads. The outcome of my testing matches yours. SandForce and Mushkin are not scapegoats. I am mean and a name-caller. I first tried trim, which resulted in device disappearance. HDD activity LED stayed lit. I wondered if 88SA8040 lost its mind, if it would require power restart. No, that is not the problem: I proceeded to swap six PATA discs, all without problem.
This post contains misinformation.
Perhaps mSATA assembly is operating in-spec, but with worst-case slowest-allowed responses, and upstream (ATA bridge) does not like it. Even if so, I do not recommend this product (Addonics ADMS25IDE, supposed Lycom ST-173), as it is imperfect in a native-PATA host: it is detected as not wired for Ultra DMA. JBUK made me aware of this—see his post in discussion "KingSpec SSD on T23 ?" http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 19#p726019
This post contains misinformation.
88SA8040 might be imperfect. This is really not relevant, but I do not want to criticise everyone except Marvell. Soren Kristensen observed some sort of incompatibility. ("Soekris Booting Problem" on Soekris-tech at 2009-07-15) http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.har ... ical/15310
This post contains misinformation.
SiI3811 seems to be imperfect. Boszormenyi Zoltan observed it causing "device reported invalid CHS sector 0". ("ahci driver cannot suspend a CF card, ata_piix can" on Linux Kernel Mailing List at 2013-04-16) https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/4/16/198
This post contains misinformation.
Double bridging in T43 is no better today than it was in 2011. To all readers, members and lurkers: I am sorry for promoting this storage option, not having tested it myself. I am sorry for repeatedly poo-pooing JMicron and other people's ideas.

This post contains misinformation. I leave it here to preserve my trail of thought.
Last edited by automobus on Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#81 Post by automobus » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:44 am

This post contains misinformation.

I found a revelation in conversation on linux-ide, "libata dev_config call order wrong." at 2004-08-29.
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ide/1808

PATA devices can detect 80-conductor cable. This is reported to host in IDENTIFY DEVICE Word 93 bit 13. For SATA devices, word 93 is zero. (In identification of parallel and serial devices, this is not the only difference.) Easy way to know what what your drive thinks of its cable: for 80-conductor, output from ( hdparm -I ; ) includes "CBLID- above Vih" in section "HW reset results".

PATA device to SATA host bridge is onboard our Alviso laptops by Dell and Lenovo. PATA device to SATA host bridge is not required to modify IDENTIFY DEVICE information for optimal performance. (IDENTIFY PACKET DEVICE is handled differently.)

A SATA device to PATA host bridge should modify IDENTIFY DEVICE parameters, as required per application. For embedded application (perhaps such as Elphel camera or Sound Devices 7-Series recorder), software can configure ATA bus speed regardless of cable detection. For personal computer application (such as ThinkPad T60 with Ultrabay Slim SATA HDD Adapter), to run personal computer operating system, users might happily pay more for the bridge to work optimally, automatically.

I suspect, the problem is a sanity check performed by upstream bridge. I suspect, upstream bridge rejects a described SATA device after reset. 88SA8040 seems to cooperate once (at initial configuration) but rejects a described SATA device which later is attached. Maybe, SiI3811 is picky from when it starts.

I connected my PATA assembly to my genuine Shenzhen Fuzhixing Electronic FZX-5002. This is a PATA disc to SATA host translator/bridge/adapter, bearing a Sunplus SATALink SPIF223A. This bridge chokes on Data Set Management commands, or at least trim: it hangs and does not recover upon soft reset. It can access a hotplugged disc upon reset, and in particular, it can access this PATA assembly if it is disconnected and reconnected multiple times. It does work with a bridged device, unlike those bridges in our Alviso laptops.

I believe, a perfectly working system can be built around a double bridge. But not by a member of general public, who is deprived of relevant information. Maybe six or any arbitrary number can work together, before timing becomes a problem. Such a setup requires each bridge to be properly configured.

I suspect, genuine Ultrabay Slim SATA HDD Adapter does not pass IDENTIFY DEVICE unchanged. I suspect it sets word 93.

I did not read ATA8-APT. I did not read a lot of things. I did not consult a expert, speak with a engineer, ask Lenovo, or even write a letter to Marvell. I am only guessing. I would be happy to read another person's explanation.

Smartmontools release 6 smartctl is a nice application with a useful feature: --identify Prints an annotated table of the IDENTIFY DEVICE data. Below, word 93 yanked from output of smartctl --identify=wv :

Code: Select all

ordinary drive
  93      -     0x604b   Hardware reset result (PATA)
  93     15:14     0x1   Must be set to 0x1
  93     13          1   Device detected CBLID- above(1)/below(0) ViHB
  93     12          0   Reserved
  93     11          0   Device 1 asserted PDIAG-
  93     10:9      0x0   Device 1 detection method: -, Jumper, CSEL, other
  93      8          0   Must be set to 1
  93      7          0   Reserved
  93      6          1   Device 0 responds when device 1 selected
  93      5          0   Device 0 detected the assertion of DASP-
  93      4          0   Device 0 detected the assertion of PDIAG-
  93      3          1   Device 0 passed diagnostics
  93      2:1      0x1   Device 0 detection method: -, Jumper, CSEL, other
  93      0          1   Must be set to 1

subject bridge assembly
  93      -     0x0000   Hardware reset result (PATA)
I would like to know, concerning Ultrabay Slim SATA HDD Adapter, what does its word 93 contain?

This post contains misinformation.
Last edited by automobus on Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Recommendations for T42-mSATA SSD w/Addonics ADMS25IDE?

#82 Post by Johan » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:33 pm

I have been following this thread with interest, and when Nameless some time ago gave up trying to get his adapter to work in a T43, I jumped in and bought this/his adapter – being the Addonics ADMS25IDE. I intend to try this adapter (with a suitable mSATA SSD) in my T42p – which we know is a “native PATA” ThinkPad, and therefore should hopefully be much less picky compared to the (in this relation) very uncooperative T43/p’s (...I’m however a bit reluctant after having read automobus’ detailed word of caution about the Addonics adapter, but now we will see how it works in a T42p!).

Since this thread has mainly attracted the interest from T43/p’s users, I would therefore like to ask the "genuine PATA'ers" = T40, T41 and T42’ers who have tried this adapter which mSATA SSD you would recommend? (- and recommendations much preferably from own experience, rather than suggestions based on belief, anticipation etc.). Equally important, I would appreciate information about any “known-bad” mSATA SSD’s for use with this adapter? (in a PATA-based T40/T41 and/or T42/p).

I intend to run Windows 7 on a T42p with this adapter (with full TRIM-support), and a hopefully soon-to-come :wink: mSATA SSD, but since I have earlier on been messing a LOT with the JMicron JM20330 adapter and an Intel X18-M (1.8" SATA) SSD in my T42p (until I finally realized that this combination simply doesn't work; incompatible controllers the JM20330 and the one in the X18-M), I would absolutely like to make a better first-time (mSATA, now) problem-free SSD choice, so that’s what I am asking for recommendations about! :-)

The Addonics ADMS25IDE has the Marvell 88SA8052-NNC2 SATA/PATA bridge (as mentioned by Nameless in this post). BTW, if anyone is interested, I can post high-resolution images of this adapter.

The Lycom/Addonics adapter is also sold as by the eBay.com shop "pilashopping" as DeLock Converter IDE 44-pin auf mSATA 2.5" 7mm and also on their .co.uk site; both adapters apparently originating from this German company. Unfortunately, I have no idea bout how to find out what specific mSATA SSD's his/her customers are (successfully) using? Another UK-based seller of this adapter (the ADMS25IDE) is Aimtec.

The same adapter is furthermore sold (on Amazon.com) as Aleratec mSATA SSD to High Speed 9.5mm 2.5" IDE SSD Drive Converter Adapter with Frame. The company Aleratec also list the latter on their own homepage. In Japan, the same adapter is sold as "KRHKMSATAI9" and "KRHK-mSATA/I9"

Note that the ST663FD9 adapter is also sold by Micro SATA cables under p/n MSATA-44P-IDE-HSG. Both there as well as in their eBay listing for this part they claim (based on – what? Factual knowledge? Belief?):
Supported mSATA Storage Devices:

Intel 310, 311 Series mSATA module SSD
Samsung PM800, PM810, PM830 Series mSATA module SSD
Toshiba HG,SG2 Series mSATA Module SSD
Sandisk Gen 2 pSSD, P4 Meteor5 Series mSATA module SSD
Any compatible mSATA SSD Card
Additionally, on Amazon.com an adapter with P/N "MSATA-44P-IDE-HSG" is shown but this is actually the ST663FD9 (with the Jmicron JMH330 single-chip solution for serial to parallel ATA translation); i.e. the same adapter as described by GACrabill in the very first post in this thread (note that by GACrabill is commenting the the single Amazon user-feedback).

A ThinkPad X31-user by the way has reported succesfully using this adapter in the thread Installing a SSD on an IBM ThinkPad X31, using a Crucial M4 128 GB (CT128M4SSD3).

OK, end of this long post, but please share your recommendation of a “very-likely-to-work-with-no-problems” mSATA T42/p-SSD with the above-mentioned Addonics ADMS25IDE/Marvell adapter… thanks very much in advance! :bow:

Johan

Edit: Fixed the above post after the correction by GACrabill below (thanks Gary, and sorry for the initial confusion... too many adaptors!)

Subsequent update (added Feb. 6, 2014) to the above: I just discovered that the manufacturer of the Minerva ST663FD9 adpter is very active in replying to customers (in Taiwan!) about e.g. what mSATA SSD's are usable with the ST663FD9 adapter; see this Google Translation informing about many said-to-be compatible mSATA SSD's with the ST663FD9 - pretty interesting reading...!
IBM T42p's (2373-Q1U & -Q2U): 2.1 GHz, 15" UXGA FlexView, 2 GB RAM, 128 MB FireGL T2, 128 GB 1.8" SATA SSD, IBM a/b/g, BT, Win 7 Ultimate
IBM T42 (2373-N1G): 1.8 GHz, 15" SXGA+ FlexView, 2 GB RAM, 64 MB Radeon 9600, 64 GB 1.8" SATA SSD, IBM a/b/g, BT, Win 7 Ultimate

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Re: Recommendations for T42-mSATA SSD w/Addonics ADMS25IDE?

#83 Post by GACrabill » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:04 pm

Johan wrote: .... Note that the Addonics ADMS25IDE adapter is also sold by Micro SATA cables under p/n MSATA-44P-IDE-HSG. Both there as well as in their eBay listing for this part they claim (based on – what? Factual knowledge? Belief?) ....

The same adapter is furthermore sold as DeLock Converter IDE 44-pin auf mSATA 2.5" 7mm. On Amazon.com an adapter with P/N "MSATA-44P-IDE-HSG" is shown but this is actually the ST663FD9 (with the Jmicron JMH330 single-chip solution for serial to parallel ATA translation); i.e. the same adapter as described by GACrabill in the very first post in this thread (note that by GACrabill is commenting the single user-feedback).
The 'microsatacables' adapters are the ST663FD9 adapter (or it's sata-II predecessor) ... they may be "equivalent" to a salesperson, but they are not the "Addonics ADMS25IDE adapter".

The 'DeLock Converter' definitely looks like the Lycom/Addonics adapter.

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New theory: I think I know what is wrong.

#84 Post by automobus » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:56 pm

automobus wrote:I suspect, genuine Ultrabay Slim SATA HDD Adapter does not pass IDENTIFY DEVICE unchanged. I suspect it sets word 93.
Johan provided me with information about both OWC Mercury Legacy Pro SSD and Ultrabay Slim SATA HDD Adapter. Neither of them modify word 93.

My new suspicion: firmware in certain mobile PCs might derive host cable detection bit from devices at power-on, instead of always indicating 80-wire. Some models which might be so-programmed include ThinkPads: X22 T30 T23 A31p; and possibly VAIO TZ (I do not have patience to research). This is my guess, my crazy theory, I am not confident. I am mentally exhausted.

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Re: Recommendations for T42-mSATA SSD w/Addonics ADMS25IDE?

#85 Post by GACrabill » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:55 am

Johan wrote:... I would therefore like to ask the "genuine PATA'ers" = T40, T41 and T42’ers who have tried this adapter which mSATA SSD you would recommend? (- and recommendations much preferably from own experience, rather than suggestions based on belief, anticipation etc.). Equally important, I would appreciate information about any “known-bad” mSATA SSD’s for use with this adapter? (in a PATA-based T40/T41 and/or T42/p).
.
.
OK, end of this long post, but please share your recommendation of a “very-likely-to-work-with-no-problems” mSATA T42/p-SSD with the above-mentioned Addonics ADMS25IDE/Marvell adapter… thanks very much in advance!
Johan is looking for "Addonics ADMS25IDE/Marvell adapter" experiences in T40/p-T42/p models.

Even though my mSATA experiences are with the "ST663FD9 adapter", they may be of value also.
T40 (w/T40p motherboard and ATI-9000), ST663FD9 adapter:
- Plextor M5M, 256GB, mSATA, works with Win7 and XP ... (Marvell controller and Toshiba NAND)
- Toshiba THNSNF128GMCS, 128GB, mSATA, works with Win7 (not tested with XP) ... (Marvell controller and Toshiba NAND)

Positive experience reported by clgr000ar in his T40 with the "ST663FD9 adapter" :
- Crucial M4, 64GB, mSATA, works with Win7

My "opinions" :

- I would expect that any mSATA SSD that works in either the "ST663FD9 adapter (JMH330)" or the "Addonics ADMS25IDE/Marvell adapter" will also work in the other adapter. No one has proven that either adapter has problems doing its job. The only thing that I have seen proven is that the really old SATA-to-IDE chip on the T43 motherboards can not handle the passing of TRIM commands thru an IDE adapter (over-simplified but that's the bottom-line).

- Based on the bad 2012 experiences with Intel 1.8" microSATA SSDs (multiple models and different users ... not working correctly with Win7 thru a microSATA-to-IDE adapter), I believe that Intel uses a proprietary communication method with their "Toolbox" that will not work thru an IDE adapter ... therefore I would not attempt an Intel mSATA SSD thru any IDE adapter.

- Be very careful when choosing an mSATA SSD. There were many mSATA SSDs that shipped as OEM SSDs in laptops during the last 4-5 years. Some of those mSATA SSDs don't support Win7 TRIM commands. Some of the really-old-can't-do-TRIM mSATA SSDs are being sold on eBay as "New" (they haven't been 'used', but they are OLD) !

- The internals of SSDs are not consistent within a brand. (ie. The Toshiba THNSNC model inside the 1.8" Kingston microSATA SSDs was a 2010 model with a Toshiba controller. The Toshiba THNSNS model was a 1H2012 model with a Sandforce controller. The Toshiba THNSNF model listed above was a 2H2012 model with a Marvell controller. The Toshiba THNSNH model is a 4Q2013 model with a Toshiba controller.)

Please post *your* mSATA experiences with either of the above adapters. TIA.

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#86 Post by rms » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:52 pm

thats neat, i briefly considered getting one but was afraid of the possibility of complications with setting it up as a boot drive

Johan
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Further feedback about the Lycom/Addonics etc. mSATA adapter

#87 Post by Johan » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:43 pm

@ GACrabill: Thanks very much for your detailled expert-feedback; absolutely appreciated! I am attempting to put together a list of mSATA SSD's compatible (= "known-good") with the Lycom/Addonics/Aleratec/DeLock adapter, but I am still waiting for some information... so stay tuned! :wink:

Googling after the Japanese Lycom/Addonics adapter name ("KRHK-MSATA/I9" or "Kuroutoshikou KRHK-mSATA/I9") and "ThinkPad" I digged up the following (with the more or less precise help by Google translate), which might be of interest to other ThinkPad'ers:

A Jananese fellow ("Hiroaki") report success with the Lycom/Addonics etc. adapter here using a PLEXTOR PX-128M5M 128GB mSATA SSD in a Panasonic CF-W5.

In this post (page 1) and (in particular:) page 2 another Japanese fellow ("yfuj11") seems to report success with the Lycom/Addonics etc. adapter in a T43 (!), M/T 2668-KAJ, also using a Plextor PX-128M5M. I suggest some of the T43-interested folks around here to contact the Japanse OP directly (Yfuj11@Live.jp) and ask whether he(/she?) actually got a mSATA SSD to work OK in a T43? (Note that I am not certain about whether success with the mSATA SSD in a T43 was actually achieved or not; it is only my personal interpretation of the rather poor Google translation, so please be kind to me, if you are able...).

On this Japanese Amazon site, one customer is reporting success with this adapter in a HP NX6120 (under XP) using the "Premier Pro" (A-Data) mSATA SSD model ASP310S3-64GM-C. Another customer is reporting success with this adapter in a ThinkPad T41 using the A-Data mSATA SSD model ASP310S3-128GM-C (128 GB SATA-6G).

On this Japanese page the poster seems to say OK about using the Lycom/Addonics etc. adapter in a ThinkPad X31 with the following SSD's:
a) SUPER TALENT FHM28GW25H (120 GB, 2.5" IDE) [Note: This is a 2.5" PATA SSD, and doesn't require any adapter]
b) Intel SSDMCEAC120B301 (120 GB mSATA) + Kuroutoshikou KRHK-mSATA/I9 (mSATA to 2.5inch, IDE)
c) ADATA ASP310S3-128GM-C (120 GB mSATA) + Kuroutoshikou KRHK-mSATA/I9 (mSATA to 2.5inch, IDE)
d) PLEXTOR PX-128M5M + (128 GB mSATA) + Kuroutoshikou KRHK-mSATA/I9 (mSATA to 2.5inch, IDE)
Update of Feb. 16, 2014: After posting the above, GACrabill pointed my attention to this thread at forums.hexus.net where a user is reporting success with the Lycom/Addonics adapter and "the cheapest mSATA drive (Kingston)" in a Sony Vaio A117S. This setup is running Windows 7 "very smoothly".

On the German ThinkPad's forum I came across the thread Which SSD solution for T43? where the use of the DeLock 62495 mSATA adapter (= the Lycom/Addonics etc.) is discussed in T42's and T43's.

On this Japanese site the DeLock etc. adapter is used with a Samsung MZ-MPC0320/0H1 mSATA SSD; benchmarks for this setup are shown (Windows 7). According to this image the Samsung MZ-MPC0320/0H1 is actually a PM830 (mSATA 6.0 Gb/s MLC SSD) with P/N MZMPC032HBCD - the datasheet for which can be found here. This SSD uses a Samsung (MCX S4LJ204X01) controller. There's a review of this mSATA SSD (although in the much larger capacity 256 GB version) here.

-------------------- (end of talk about the Lycom/Addonics etc. adapter) -------------------

Also, while lurking around for more information about compatible mSATA SSD's for use (in e.g. T42/p's) with the Lycom/Addonics/Aleratec/DeLock (Marvell-based) adapter, I have come across a couple of interesting German threads; mSATA to IDE Adapter for ThinkPads – ThinkPad-Wiki and Experiences with mSATA to IDE controller adapter and IBM Thinkpad T43 By the way, note the poster's signature: "IBM Thinkpad T43, 2 GB, 14", 120 GB OCZ Nocti mSATA to IDE controller adapter" (!!). If anyone here is interested in more information about this thread, in relation to e.g. T43's, then I suggest to write and politely ask the author of the thread directly (info@borpf.de). The images linked to in the latter thread are not visible for guests, so for the convenience of the readers of this forum :wink: I copied them and put them here: caddy-hdd and Caddy and HDD (temperature) and Rahmen and SSD (temperature).

The German author of the above thread seems to be using this JM20330-based adapter (there's a better image of this adapter here - note the related question/reply here... not sure if Google Translate is accurate?). The adapter used here can also be purchased on Amazon (both the .com, .co.uk and the .de sites). The only customer feedback (that I can find) is here and here (the latter saying: "Allowed me to upgrade the slow IDE drive in my IBM laptop to a state of the art SSD").

The same adapter is sold by a number of e.g. eBay'ers, incl.:
[quote="seller "e-sale2010" who"]mini pci-e mSATA SSD to 44-pin IDE adapter as 2.5" Toshiba HDD for IBM laptop
... support Storage Device:
Intel mSATA series SSD and compatible Storage Device
IBM T40 T41 T42 T43 mSATA SSD and compatible Storage Device
Samsung PM800 series SSD and compatible Storage Device
Toshiba mSATA SSD and compatible Storage Device[/quote]or:
[quote="seller "freegift2010" who"]PCI-E mSATA SSD 50MM 3.3V to 1.8" IDE 3.3V 44-pin SSD FOR IBM X40 X41 HDD Adapter
.... fit the following models:
Sandisk SDSA3DD-032G 32GB SSD
SAMSUNG PM800 mSATA
TRANSCEND TRANSCEND mPCIE mSATA
TOPSSD MinipCIE mSATA SSD Series mSATA
INNODISK Innodisk Corp. mSATA J80 SSD mSATA
RENICE Renice X3 50MM mSATA SSD mSATA
INTEL INTEL Solid-state Drive 310 Series mSATA
TOSHIBA THNSNB064GMCJ 64G mSATA, And other MSATA( PCI-E ) SSD 50mm.[/quote] and
[quote="seller "newlaptop168" who"]mSATA SSD 51mm x 30mm SSD to 2.5" 44-pin IDE HDD adapter Card for ThinkPad X31 T43
... fit the following models:
Sandisk mSATA SSD
SAMSUNG PM800 mSATA
TRANSCEND TRANSCEND mPCIE mSATA
TOPSSD MinipCIE mSATA SSD Series mSATA
INNODISK Innodisk Corp. mSATA J80 SSD mSATA
RENICE Renice X3 50mm mSATA SSD mSATA
INTEL INTEL Solid-state Drive 310 Series mSATA
TOSHIBA THNSNB064GMCJ 64G mSATA[/quote]
On this Japanese Amazon page several customers report their experience in ThinkPad X40's with an adapter that looks very much the same but which does not have the "U1" (a LDO?) mounted... :?:

One user reported that this adapter runs surprisingly hot; see Overheating mSATA-IDE converter...

... and more of the same; search on eBay for "mSATA SSD to 44pin IDE". I recall having seen the same adapter discussed here on this forum earlier on, but I haven't tried to dig up where exactly (I believe it was here in the T4x section). Can't remember the details/experiences reported...

Knowing eBay I would assume that most (if not all!) the above sellers have not carried out any extensive product testing on this adapter before advertising it, so the claim(s) that this adapter is usable with e.g. T43's should no doubt be taken with a large grain of salt!

Finally, please understand that I am only sharing information here which I have been digging up; I obviously cannot take responsibility for other peoples claims etc., so again: All the above just for your pleasant entertainment, and hopefully for someone to take constructive advantage of! :wink:

End of post! More to follow (hopefully!) about compatible mSATA SSD's with the Lycom/Addonics/Aleratec/DeLock adapter! 8)

UPDATE (Feb. 19, 2014): The JM20330-based adapter discussed above has successfully been adopted by user Acheron in his T42, as described in the thread Successful upgrade of T42 with Crucial M4 128 GB mSATA SSD (see from this post and onwards). [end of update]

Johan
IBM T42p's (2373-Q1U & -Q2U): 2.1 GHz, 15" UXGA FlexView, 2 GB RAM, 128 MB FireGL T2, 128 GB 1.8" SATA SSD, IBM a/b/g, BT, Win 7 Ultimate
IBM T42 (2373-N1G): 1.8 GHz, 15" SXGA+ FlexView, 2 GB RAM, 64 MB Radeon 9600, 64 GB 1.8" SATA SSD, IBM a/b/g, BT, Win 7 Ultimate

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Re: Further feedback about the Lycom/Addonics etc. mSATA ada

#88 Post by GACrabill » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:42 pm

Johan wrote: ... In this post (page 1) and (in particular:) page 2 another Japanese fellow ("yfuj11") seems to report success with the Lycom/Addonics etc. adapter in a T43 (!), M/T 2668-KAJ, also using a Plextor PX-128M5M.
Johan wrote: ... Also, while lurking around for more information about compatible mSATA SSD's for use (in e.g. T42/p's) with the Lycom/Addonics/Aleratec/DeLock (Marvell-based) adapter, I have come across a couple of interesting German threads; mSATA to IDE Adapter for ThinkPads – ThinkPad-Wiki and Experiences with mSATA to IDE controller adapter and IBM Thinkpad T43 By the way, note the poster's signature: "IBM Thinkpad T43, 2 GB, 14", 120 GB OCZ Nocti mSATA to IDE controller adapter" (!!). If anyone here is interested in more information about this thread, in relation to e.g. T43's, then I suggest to write and politely ask the author of the thread directly (info@borpf.de). The images linked to in the latter thread are not visible for guests, so for the convenience of the readers of this forum :wink: I copied them and put them here: caddy-hdd and Caddy and HDD (temperature) and Rahmen and SSD (temperature).
I think the key question in both of the T43 examples listed above is "Windows 7 w/ TRIM" *or* "some other OS" ?
Johan wrote: UPDATE (Feb. 19, 2014): The JM20330-based adapter discussed above has successfully been adopted by user Acheron in his T42, as described in the thread Successful upgrade of T42 with Crucial M4 128 GB mSATA SSD (see from this post and onwards). [end of update]
I believe that the short adapter that Acheron used may have actually contained the JMH330 chip. The issue with that solution is that it normally requires the disassembly of the laptop (as Acheron's pictures show).

The "ST663FD9" and "Lycom/Addonics" adapters are almost plug-n-play in comparison.

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I think I found something wrong.

#89 Post by automobus » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:09 am

Three weeks ago, I suspected: in our Alviso laptops, the PATA to SATA bridges reject SATA device; this is not related to Parallel ATA electrical bus; and this is not related to latency or ATA link nanosecond timing problems.

I now know, this idea is utterly wrong. I got a mini-SATA breakout module. I think I have a Lycom ST-174. It was needlessly expensive for essentially a PCB with through-hole-mounted SATA header. I tested multiple drives, both SATA and PATA.

Test setup: Inspiron 9300 (82801FBM + 88SA8040) + ST-173 (88SA8052) + ST-174 + 1 metre cable + FZX-5002 (SPIF223A) + ATA storage Device.
Use after cold-start: success.
Hot-plug SATA-to-PATA module: success.
Hot-plug PATA-to-SATA board: success.
Hot-plug end-of-chain PATA Device: success.
My fastest Device, a CompactFlash card which can sustain over 90 Mo/s read at UDMA5 on suitable controller, sustained 77-80 Mo/s read in this setup.

Test setup: Inspiron 9300 (82801FBM + 88SA8040) + ST-173 (88SA8052) + ST-174 + 1 metre cable + ATA storage device.
Use after cold-start: success.
Hot-plug SATA-to-PATA module: success.
Hot-plug end-of-chain SATA Device: success.
I used hdparm to issue ten thousand trim commands to a drive which does not support DATA SET MANAGEMENT (WD5000AAKS). This completed in eighty-three seconds: drive failed the commands as it should, with no undesired stall or timeout. This setup sustained 109 Mo/s read and 94 Mo/s write.



Test setup: ThinkPad T43 (82801FBM + SiI3811) + ST-173 (88SA8052) + ST-174 + 1 metre cable + FZX-5002 (SPIF223A) + ATA storage Device.
Use after cold-start: failure.
Hot-plug SATA-to-PATA module: failure.
Linux kernel messages:

Code: Select all

[    2.587146] ata1.00: ATA-7: Hitachi HTS541680J9AT00, SB2OA70H, max UDMA/100
[    2.587297] ata1.00: 156301488 sectors, multi 16: LBA48
[    2.594309] ata1.00: configured for UDMA/100
[   32.736145] ata1.00: exception Emask 0x0 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x0 action 0x6 frozen
[   32.736295] ata1.00: failed command: READ DMA
[   32.736444] ata1.00: cmd c8/00:08:00:00:00/00:00:00:00:00/e0 tag 0 dma 4096 in
         res 40/00:00:00:00:00/00:00:00:00:00/00 Emask 0x4 (timeout)
[   32.736893] ata1.00: status: { DRDY }
[   37.786065] ata1: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0)
[   42.784064] ata1: device not ready (errno=-16), forcing hardreset
[   42.784215] ata1: soft resetting link
[   42.944576] ata1.00: configured for UDMA/100
[   42.944719] ata1.00: device reported invalid CHS sector 0
[   42.944869] ata1: EH complete
Test setup: ThinkPad T43 (82801FBM + SiI3811) + ST-173 (88SA8052) + ST-174 + 1 metre cable + ATA storage Device.
Use after cold-start: success.
Hot-plug SATA-to-PATA module: success.
Hot-plug end-of-chain SATA Device: success.
I used hdparm to issue ten thousand trim commands to a drive which does not support DATA SET MANAGEMENT (WD5000AAKS). This completed in thirty-nine seconds: drive failed the commands as it should, with no undesired stall or timeout. This setup sustained 100 Mo/s read.

Attempt to write through this bus chain, using Linux 3.10, resulted in outright failure: after some time (maybe half minute) the PC froze-up, cursor stopped blinking. It is Linux fault, not hardware. Linux hard lockup, freeze solid, total hang. I did not reproduce this test with a different operating system.

Maybe this is evidence that SiI3811 might not be "perfect". I suspect, SiI3811 behaviour is outside what is tolerated by ATA. According to SiI3811 Product Brief (document SiI PB-58 rev1 8/06), SiI3811 is "Compliant with the Serial ATA 1.0a specification", but "Ultra ATA/133 compatible". And it features SATA logo, but no Ultra ATA logo. Perhaps SiI3811 data sheet makes this clear, and all customers (of SiImage) and integrators are completely aware of this.



Conclusion: I believe that all currently-available transparent ATA-ATA translation bridges are imperfect. Marvell 88SA8052 might be "most perfect".

88SA8040, 88SA8052, SiI3811 seem to be completely transparent: I did not catch them modifying IDENTIFY DEVICE results. SPIF223A is not completely transparent: it modifies IDENTIFY DEVICE words 76, 93, 236-254, and word 255 (checksum). To all readers with unknown bridge device: when observing its behaviour, pay close attention to IDENTIFY DEVICE words 75, 76, 93, 236-254, 255; for I have observed all of these modified by one bridge or another.

Between 82801FBM, 88SA8040, 88SA8052, and 3C29MAX21 (firmware AXM18D1Q), I believe at least one part operates not in compliance to relevant ATA specification. Perhaps only a bus trace can reveal which component(s) mess-up signal timing.

Xenomorph demonstrated that Crucial M500, linked to two Marvell bridges, does not timeout and disappear when responding to trim commands. That is 88SA8040 + 88SA8052 + 88SS9187.
Last edited by automobus on Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:15 am, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *P

#90 Post by jeronimo » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:20 pm

FYI I pimped my Thinkpad R50p with an SSD.

Laptop: R50p Model 1832-27G

SSD: Kingston SSDNow mS200 mSATA 60GB 1.8"

PATA/SATA converter: DELOCK Converter mSATA 2.5 IDE 44 Pin (Art. 62434) (JM20330) http://www.delock.de/produkte/F_981_mSA ... kmale.html

Total cost: ca. 70 EUR

I had some trouble installing Windows 7, so I partitioned the SSD using Knoppix.

In the beginning it didn't feel very stable for some reason. But I suspect that was due to thermal problems with the laptop and Windows 7 being at 100% CPU because it's compiling .NET stuff in the background for some time after install. After some time Windows just stalled. Also shutdown didn't really work and ended in "KERNEL INPAGE" bluescreen.

But now that all updates are finished, everything is great. here is the benchmark.

Image

Before that I had a Transcend PATA SSD. Stalled every few minutes for a few minutes. --> trash

Cheers.

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